Model Master acrylics (My first try with them)

MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Model Master acrylics (My first try with them)

Posted by MikeV on Monday, January 12, 2004 7:37 PM

As I posted in another post yesterday, I tried out some of the MM acrylic paint in Gunship Gray to see how it performed since I have heard such mixed reviews of it. The test subject was the two fuselage halves of an old Revell 1/32 scale F4U Corsair that I have had since I was a kid and never built, so I thought it would make a good test subject being that it was fairly big to see the results.
All I did for prepping the plastic was to wipe it down with some Poly S Plastic Prep on a paper towel and then I used the airbrush to air dry it.
I mixed the MM acrylic in a 2:1 ratio of paint to thinner with regular tap water and shot it through my Omni 4000 at 14 psi and then at 20 psi and it sprayed beautifully. [:0]
I thought this stuff sprayed terribly from what I have read? Interesting. Confused [%-)]

The temperature in my garage was 60 degrees and the weather was typical here for CA this time of year.
I thought I would try this paint with a different thinner also so I emptied the color cup and mixed a little more in a 2:1 ration with 70% Isopropyl Alcohol and it sprayed the same as the tap water. I had no specks in the paint and the color was even and smooth.
It is now only 24 hours later and I put some regular cheap Frostking brand masking tape across several different areas of the parts I painted and rubbed the tape down really good with my finger to burnish it somewhat. Despite my best efforts I could not get any paint to lift. Cool [8D]

Now I am wondering why I had such good results with it.
Did the Poly S Plastic Prep make the paint adhere better?
Is the Gunship Gray just one of those colors that adheres well and sprays well?

Any of your comments would be appreciated.

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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saltydog

Member since
July 2003
From: Lower Alabama

Posted by saltydog on Monday, January 12, 2004 8:54 PM

well, ive thinned mine with everything under the sun with the same results, terrible. it may be the humidity but it dont seem to affect the tamiya. how were you holding your mouth? Was your tongue doing the michael jordan thing? who knows man, im still not gonna buy anymore of it. maybe your one of the chosen few that it works for. try some more colors, it may be the color. like i say, the only color that worked well in my paache H was mm acryl interior green, and intermediate blue from polyscale and both were thinned with distilled water. later

Chris

The Origins of Murphy's Law: "In the begginning there was nothing, and it exploded."!!! _________ chris

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Monday, January 12, 2004 10:21 PM

Thanks Saltydog.
Since you and Chris both had problems and you are both in the same southern region of the U.S. where it is real humid at times, I am wondering if that is the factor? Is it humid there now?

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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saltydog

Member since
July 2003
From: Lower Alabama

Posted by saltydog on Monday, January 12, 2004 10:29 PM

mike.....its south alabama ok.......nuff said! we have about 14 days out of the year (scattered through out fall and winter mainly) where the humidity may drop below 50%. later. well everybody, this proves one more point, tamiya is an all weather paint! roooooooooollllllllllllllll tide fellows!

Chris

The Origins of Murphy's Law: "In the begginning there was nothing, and it exploded."!!! _________ chris

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Monday, January 12, 2004 10:38 PM

That's interesting. I wonder about people in other states that have had problems too with it? Is the humidity the culprit or just one of many? Big Smile [:D]

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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saltydog

Member since
July 2003
From: Lower Alabama

Posted by saltydog on Monday, January 12, 2004 10:48 PM

do i since sarcasm? Evil [}:)]

Chris

The Origins of Murphy's Law: "In the begginning there was nothing, and it exploded."!!! _________ chris

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Monday, January 12, 2004 11:14 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by saltydog

do i since sarcasm?

That wasn't a shot at the people spraying these paints, it was more of a joke since I have heard several people on this forum who don't like them and some of them are veteran modelers. I believe Greg (Plasticmod992) also made a comment that he didn't like them, but I believe that was a tip dry complaint which I am so used to it doesn't bother me.
When I airbrush with Createx or Aqua Flow T-shirt paints I wipe the needle with my fingernails about once every couple of minutes out of habit.

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 12, 2004 11:20 PM

Could be humidity, Japan and especially Tokyo is a very humid region.

Just ask anyone that has been here during the high summer 95% and upwards we are getting.

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Monday, January 12, 2004 11:29 PM

Actually we have fairly high humidity here too but it doesn't feel humid.
Right now the weather on my home page for this internet service says that the humidity here in Hayward, CA is 93% right now at 50 degrees F.
Go down and visit Florida and Alabama at 93% humidity and you can't breath, especially in the summer months. Dead [xx(]

Since it is that high of humidity here then maybe that is not the factor in these paints not working well for some. Confused [%-)]

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 4:08 AM

Relative humidy is a measure of the amount of water in the air divided by the amount of water the air can hold for a given temperature. At 50 degrees F, the air can't hold much water so it will have a high relative humidy but with very little water content. When that air goes into your body it heats up so the relative humidy drops down.

Are you airbrushing outdoors or indoors? In indoors then the relative humidy is much much lower than the one given for the air outdoors. Maybe you can try it outdoors and see what the results is, but then you got two variables to play with, humidity and temperature.

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cassibill

Member since
February 2003
From: Indiana, USA

Posted by cassibill on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 9:39 AM

I don't know about air brushing but my acryl came out beautifally brushed on and I've had tools rust in the house.

cdw My life flashes before my eyes and it mostly my life flashing before my eyes!!! Big Smile The 1/144 scale census and message board: http://144scalelist.freewebpage.org/index.html

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Lufbery

Member since
December 2002
From: Harrisburg, PA

Posted by Lufbery on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 12:22 PM

Mike,

I'm glad you've gotten good results. I've had similar good luck with two caveats: (1) I find that if I prime the surface of the model with an enamel, the MM Acryl lays down better, and (2) I do not thin very much; maybe a 3 or 4:1 ration of paint to thinner. I use the MM thinner.

Even with that, the paint does not cover up the detail, even at 1/72 scale, and it seems to shrink a bit as it dries.

I've not had trouble with masking either.

I live in PA, where it gets pretty humid, but I airbrush indoors.

Just some thoughts.

Regards,

-Drew

-Drew

Build what you like; like what you build.

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stinger

Member since
January 2003
From: Everywhere

Posted by stinger on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 5:29 PM

Just to add fuel to the humidity fire, I live in Denver, where the air is so thin, the birds have to walk. Also, very, very, dry air here. Maybe that's why I never have any problem with any paint that I spray. Even at 40 degrees (F), or sometimes even less, in my garage, I've sprayed everything EXCEPT Tamiya with no problems (which means that I have never used Tamiya).
I don't even have a water trap on my compressor. I had one in the air line in my cabinet shop and it was always dry.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw in my. My 2 cents [2c]

May an Angel be your wingman, and the Sun be always at your six

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stindle

Member since
September 2003

Posted by stindle on Thursday, January 15, 2004 9:17 AM

Hey all

I live in southern ILL and I use only MM paints and never had any problems at all. Airbrushed or brused on. Well there was that one time when I dumped the bottle of Flat black over and it ran over the model I was working on Sad [:(]

Skip

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Thursday, January 15, 2004 5:38 PM

I wonder if the Poly S Plastic Prep I used has something to do with aiding the adhesion of the acrylic paint? Have you people that had trouble with MM acrylics tried the Plastic Prep before painting?

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Saturday, January 17, 2004 9:01 PM

I went and bought two more bottles of Model Master Acrylic tonight to try and see if I just had good results with that Gunship Gray color.
I bought flat black and flat white this time and I will try them and let you all know if I have the same success with them.

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Sunday, January 18, 2004 9:54 AM

I tried the flat white last night and it was much tougher to spray than the gunship gray was, but then again white has always been known as one of the toughest colors to spray well, along with yellow.
I tried it mixed 2:1 with tap water and it seemed to not cover well even though I had good success with the gunship gray and that mixture.
I then tried spraying the flat white straight from the bottle and it came out better.
I don't know how well the adhesion will be as I will test that later tonight and see.
It was a little cold at 54 degrees in the garage for painting, but it was only 60 degrees when I had the success with the gunship gray so maybe that isn't too cold.
I also shot the flat black straight from the bottle and it went on fairly well also, but the one thing I don't like about it is that the black color is not really that "black" if you know what I mean.
It appears more along the lines of dark gray mixed with black instead of having that deep black color like the Model Master flat black enamel does.
I mixed the bottle well before spraying also so that is not the problem.

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 18, 2004 2:04 PM

I've painted 18 models this year and everyone was done with MM Acryl or Tamiya. Absolutely no complaints from my Badger 150 or me other than finding the volume of paint at the LHS or color colors I need. I have had a little trouble with paint buildup on the tips but what can you expect if you don't flush or clean the tip from time to time. Personally, it's hard to beat water clean-up of the A brush and when I do get a little heavy handed, tap water repairs the boo-boo's. Here in West Tennessee it's pretty humid even in the winter months. All my painting is done indoors so temp is not an issue.

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plasticmod992

Member since
January 2003
From: The Hoosier State

Posted by plasticmod992 on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 1:31 PM

MikeV,

Glad to see your post reference the MM Acryl paints. I was wondering if you plan on doing more testing using the Acryl "fine-line" thinner to check its performance. I have a few new bottles of the Acryl; flat black, Gunship grey and white that I will test with you and compare results. I was glad to see that you had good results with 70% alocohol and tap water, I was curious about using regular tap versus distiled water. As you had acurately recalled, tip-dry is a big pet peeve with me, especially when trying to spray fine lines for an intricate camo-scheme Banged Head [banghead]

. You got me very curious about your Omni airbrush(s) as I am in the mood to buy and try one, what size is the needle/nozzle on your 4000?
Well I'll get back to you and the gang and share my spray testing results. Hey MikeV can you mention what cleaners work best for you. A little info on my tools for the tests:

Paints:
Acryl- Flat Black, Flat white, Gunship Grey, Clear Goss, Clear Flat, Acryl dried paint solovent

Airbrush:
Iwata Eclipse HP-CS .35mm tip
Revolution HP-CR .5mm tip

Greg Williams Owner/ Manager Modern Hobbies LLC Indianapolis, IN. IPMS #44084

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Jeeves

Member since
February 2003
From: Saratoga Springs, NY

Posted by Jeeves on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 1:55 PM

I am glad to see this topic MikeV as I am soon to begin painting my Texan with the MM Acryl Insignia Yellow (the other dreaded color)-- I primed the plane with Gloss White-- so now-- should I use thinnned yellow-- or straight from the bottle?? It does seem thin....

Mike

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CNicoll

Member since
January 2003
From: Chantilly, Virginia

Posted by CNicoll on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 8:26 PM

I am glad to see MikeV really give the MM paint a try. I've had really good luck with the MM paints over the past few years. I exclusively thin with MM thinner, but might try some of the ones MikeV did. I've found some of the paints doe need thinning and others do not. I wish it was a bit more consistent, but having something to practice on really helps. I keep and old 1/48 B-17 wing from the Monogram kit.

What I have found is that plastic prep is very important. The Polly S cleaner really does the trick, although dishwasher soap does too in a pinch. Get some cotton gloves to help you handle the model before you paint.

Chris

On the bench: Academy 1/72 B-17G 'Blue Hen Chick'; 1/48 Tamiya Mustang III; Kitty Hawk 1/32 P-39.

Completed: 1/48 Tamiya P-51D Mustang - 'Show Bird', 1/32 Dragon P-51D Flying Tigers 'What if'; 1/32 Tamiya P-51D Big Beautiful Doll

Group build:1/48 Tamiya Mustang III; 1/48 Tamiya P-51D Show Bird

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 9:13 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by plasticmod992

MikeV,

Glad to see your post reference the MM Acryl paints. I was wondering if you plan on doing more testing using the Acryl "fine-line" thinner to check its performance. I have a few new bottles of the Acryl; flat black, Gunship grey and white that I will test with you and compare results.

Sounds good Greg. I would like to see what results you come up with my friend. Wink [;)]

QUOTE: I was glad to see that you had good results with 70% alocohol and tap water, I was curious about using regular tap versus distiled water.

Actually I didn't notice much difference between the tap water and paint at 2:1 and the 70% alcohol with the paint at 2:1. I didn't add any water to the alcohol though so that could be another test I guess. I thought the flat white sprayed better straight from the bottle than it did thinned as it seems more thin than the gunship gray was.

QUOTE: As you had acurately recalled, tip-dry is a big pet peeve with me, especially when trying to spray fine lines for an intricate camo-scheme. You got me very curious about your Omni airbrush(s) as I am in the mood to buy and try one, what size is the needle/nozzle on your 4000?

I don't know the exact size of the Omni needle and tip but it is listed in Airbrush Action Magazine's "Airbrush Buyers Guide" as being in the .36-.40mm category which is a little bigger than your Eclipse CS which is in the .26-.30mm category.

QUOTE: Well I'll get back to you and the gang and share my spray testing results. Hey MikeV can you mention what cleaners work best for you.

The cleaner I normally use for acrylic paints is the mixture I have posted here before of 2 parts distilled or filtered water, 1 part Windex and 1 part Simple Green.
I did notice that the MM acrylics did not come off as easy with this cleaner as with the Createx and Aqua Flow T-shirt paints I use(not for modeling). If I notice the color cup not cleaning as well or as fast as I would like, then I just get out the lacquer thinner and show that paint who is boss. Big Smile [:D]

I look forward to your tests Greg as you seem very knowledgable about paints and painting techniques in this hobby. I still have a lot to learn from you veterans. Bow [bow]

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 9:16 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jeeves

I am glad to see this topic MikeV as I am soon to begin painting my Texan with the MM Acryl Insignia Yellow (the other dreaded color)-- I primed the plane with Gloss White-- so now-- should I use thinnned yellow-- or straight from the bottle?? It does seem thin....

Jeeves,

Try it both ways on a scrap model or plastic styrene sheet and see what covers better.
Try it straight out of the bottle first and if you see it grainy or spattering then try thinning it and see what works.
These paints seem to have a variance of how they spray as was noted by CNicoll.

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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gdarwin

Member since
January 2004
From: bc,canada

Posted by gdarwin on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 4:25 PM

hi all.Help after reading the comments on the paints i dont know what to do.I use humbrol enamel for most of my models,and i have tryed Tamiya acrylic ,the probmem is i want to try an airbrush,should i use enamel or acrylic.How do i mix them,and what gives the best finish.Any help you can give me will be great thanks.

gdarwin

airborne death from above http://photobucket.com/albums/a350/roygd/

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saltydog

Member since
July 2003
From: Lower Alabama

Posted by saltydog on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 6:43 PM

all of you're questions are quite relative gdarwin, theres really no right or wrong answer. personal preference is key. i personally use exclusively tamiya acrylic because its easy to clean, sprays great through my ab, no fumes, and easier on my lungs and families well being. try a container of each, see what you think. as for buying an airbrush, i own an omni 5000 gravity feed and love it. bought through the mail at dixieart.com. buy a double action brush whatever you do. it'll be more difficult to master, but its worth it in the end.

Chris

The Origins of Murphy's Law: "In the begginning there was nothing, and it exploded."!!! _________ chris

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 7:45 PM

I agree with saltydog as paints are as personal as airbrush preference.
The one thing that is true though is that enamels and lacquers chemically attach to the plastic and are the best at doing this and rarely lift when masked.
The acrylics on the other hand while being easy to spray ,and less toxic, can at times have adhesion problems due to their not attaching as well as the enamels/lacquers to the surface. That does not mean that you cannot have excellent results with them as many here can attest to.
The choice is yours gdarwin as to what works better for you.
Do you have a way to exhaust the fumes from enamels and lacquers?
If you don't then I would give Tamiya, Testors, Poly Scale, or some other acrylics a try and see what you like.
There are some very good modelers on here who can help out with mixing ratios, thinners, etc. with whatever you decide to try.

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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saltydog

Member since
July 2003
From: Lower Alabama

Posted by saltydog on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 9:08 PM

so, after 25 posts, we've come full circle! it aaaaaaaallllllllll boils down to personal preference. [:0] kinda like coffee, i like mine black with a little sugar in it. i get up every morning and stick a coffee cup full of water in the microwave, slap a folgers "tee bag" style bag in it, let it rip for 3 minutes 50 secs and voila, my morning coffee. is this the only way to enjoy coffee? no, but i like it! Approve [^]

Chris

The Origins of Murphy's Law: "In the begginning there was nothing, and it exploded."!!! _________ chris

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 9:16 PM

I just sprayed Model Master Acryl semi gloss black to one of my models and I was really impressed with the smooth beautiful finish I got. The paint was gradually thinned to the consistency of milk with a 50:50 mixture of distilled water and Tamiya thinner and sprayed at 26 PSI through my Paasche H. Humidity isn't a problem up here in southeastern B.C., but it is winter right now so I work at my spray booth.

For me getting a good finish is difficult - I also practiced spraying their primer gray (semi gloss) and discovered that I needed to turn up the air pressure to get the smooth finish I wanted. At 15-20 PSI I seemed to get a lot of orange peel like the paint wasn't atomizing properly or something like that.

I can also tell you that I built up the finish in ultra thin coats - using a lot of patience and a lot of coats.

But I don't have to put up with all that humidity either or scorching heat (except in the summer when we get 100 degree days but not that much humidity).

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maddafinga

Member since
March 2003
From: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma

Posted by maddafinga on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 10:51 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by saltydog

so, after 25 posts, we've come full circle! it aaaaaaaallllllllll boils down to personal preference. [:0] kinda like coffee, i like mine black with a little sugar in it. i get up every morning and stick a coffee cup full of water in the microwave, slap a folgers "tee bag" style bag in it, let it rip for 3 minutes 50 secs and voila, my morning coffee. is this the only way to enjoy coffee? no, but i like it!

I set mine up the night before with a timer for just before I wake up. I like mine strong strong strong and black with some sugar as well. I probably drink 8 of the 10 cups the pot makes every day, unless I'm really sleepy, then I drink the whole pot. Coffee is wonderful, even though when you think about it, it's just water poured through crushed roasted beans. Reminds me of a great ska song.

Madda Trifles make perfection, but perfection is no trifle. -- Leonardo Da Vinci Tact is for those who lack the wit for sarcasm.--maddafinga

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MikeV

Member since
April 2003
From: Hayward, CA

Posted by MikeV on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:02 PM

Josh,

I hear you about coffee.
My wife works for a big coffee roasting company here and I get mine free. Big Smile [:D]

I am spoiled now and have acquired a taster for good coffee and my favorite has become the organically grown arabica beans that she brings me.
It's the best coffee I have ever tasted. Thumbs Up [tup]

I'm glad it's free as I wouldn't be able to afford the price of this stuff. [:0]

Mike

“Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon

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