Model Master enamels verses Acryl

Mike, this ties into what I brought up last week with soaking in acrylic cleaners. Spraying acylics and using acrylic cleaners is a lot of work. Not knocking the work of others, I've seen great examples of acrylic spraying. Guys like Tom and Scott that have really mastered it, but for me, enamels are the way to go. Only fumes to contend with and if you've got that taken care of, why not.

E

MikeV wrote:

If I am going to use lacquer thinner to clean then I might as well stick with MM enamels as they are much easier to mask over and have less problems spraying, although they do take much longer to dry.

MikeV wrote:

When are they going to come out with the perfect paint?

1. An honest person must be elected to public office, remain honest while in office, and be re-elected at least twice.
2. The human race, without exception, gives up sex. (Hope that's not too risque´!)
3. All taxes, regardless of the levying body, are rescinded, worldwide.
4. A stable magnetic monopole is created.
   
5. The hottest part of Hell reaches a temperature of 0°—Kelvin.
6. The coldest part of Hell achieves the temperature of the universe one nanosecond after the Big Bang.
7. The National Weather Service predicts the weather with better than 45 percent accuracy for a week.

Mike - if you have it locally available trying one bottle of Vallejo or Color of Eagles "Aircraft Colors" might be worth your while.  While they're not perfect, I don't have a lot of the problems you listed.  I can usually get the dried paint out of the bowl with windex on a shop papertowel and a little rubbing. 

I do agree somewhat with that being a draw back to acrylics.. You ever wonder why they won't stick to the plastic as well as they stick to the bowl of your airbrush??? 

zokissima wrote:

I find this to be a problem only with MM Acryl range of acrylics. Tamiya and Vallejo break up just fine.

MikeV wrote:

zokissima wrote: I find this to be a problem only with MM Acryl range of acrylics. Tamiya and Vallejo break up just fine. Thanks Zokissima. I think Testors added an ingredient to the Acryl to make it adhere better and that is the problem.

That would explain it. You are right, I find that the MM paints adhere much better, and are most durable when the model is handled.

A little OT, but I was wondering if there would be any adverse effects from mixing Tamiya flat base with MM acryl?

MikeV wrote:

Ross, Tom, I have not tried those acrylics and maybe they are good but they are not available at the Hobbytown USA here so my choices are pretty much MM enamel or Acryl.

If you ever order from Great Models, they carry the Color of Eagles branded Vallejo, it's mostly for WWII aircraft excepting the basic colors (red, white, yello etc...) If you ever decided to give em a try.  Just search on their site for "Color of Eagles" and they will list.

tho9900 wrote:

MikeV wrote: Ross, Tom, I have not tried those acrylics and maybe they are good but they are not available at the Hobbytown USA here so my choices are pretty much MM enamel or Acryl. If you ever order from Great Models, they carry the Color of Eagles branded Vallejo, it's mostly for WWII aircraft excepting the basic colors (red, white, yello etc...) If you ever decided to give em a try.  Just search on their site for "Color of Eagles" and they will list.

Mike - if you like it, I can send you the conversion chart from Vallejo names and numbers to FS and RLM names and numbers... makes it a LOT easier to find the one you need!!!  It sprays fine with distilled water as a thinner but I like the Vallejo branded thinner.. it has an adhesion agent (won't foul up your cup like MM) and a retarder built in... It's $4 for 30ml but this bottle has lasted 15+ models...  at 1 drop for ever 3 of paint you don't use much...   just curious, do they stock Model Air or Model Color?  my chart is for Model Air but they kinda transpose in name but not number...

-=edit=- ahh I just reread and saw Model Color... I'll see if I can find a cross reference for these...

Just like I said earlier, Tom is the acrylic master!

E

MikeV,

I was having the same problem about a few years ago.  Darn stuff just clings to the color cup and resists various cleaners like mad!  Not to mention attempting to spray a fine lines during a prolonged session, having to stop ever 3 to 4 seconds to wipe off the dried, crusted tip of my airbrush - "how frustrating!"  Ofcourse, this was not a problem with my enamels, I could find any color under the sun right off the rack, prep it, load it in the brush and I'm off.  Then it hits me once again...the fumes, mineral spirits, laquer thinner and other hazards... I had enough.  Who knows what long term effects of over 20 years with enamels have done.  Unable to ignore these concerns any longer, I have, for the past year or so now, been using Tamiya acrylics exclusively, with excellent results!  Thanks to the good advice from Forum members here and their experiencies, the transition was reletively painless and fun too! 

Paint color availability is no longer a problem, armed with Uban Fredrickson's color matching chart.  It has mixing recipes and equivelencies for Tamiya to resonably match FS colors.  I printed the chart from th IPMS Stockholm site and keep it in a binder next to my paints.  I can mix FS colors in minutes and Tamiya airbrushes beautifully through my Iwata Revolution airbrush.  Even my small-tipped Iwata HP-C has seen more frequent use.  Prolonged fine line spraying is much easier to achieve without having to use flow-aids and the like.  This is due, I suspect to its high color pigmentation/ fidelity and low viscosity, allowing reletively high thinning ratios.  My thinner of choice is cheap, department store brand Denatured Alcohol at ($2.99 per quart in my area).  Better still, I haven't had to re-stock my Tamiya paints in over a year, due to their economical bottle size and afore-mentioned color mixing possibilities.  To solve the brush-painting issues with Tamiya, I simply add a drop or two of *Liquitex Slow-Dry Fluid Retarder to the paint, and it stays workable just like enamels!  Clean up is stupid easy too.  With good ol' Windex at the ready, everything cleans up fast and very easy.  Clear coats are done with Future for gloss and a varying mixes of Tamiya Flat base & Furture for the desired shades of satin to dead flat that I may need.  I have made the decision to stick with Tamiya.  None of the problems like MM Acryl, comparable results like enamels with less hazards, and all of the benifits of acrylic. 

So, with all that said, my recommendation for you is to experiment way outside the box and give Tamiya Acrylics a go.  I've found that I've benifitted emotionally as well.  Not to sound corny, but I'm more relieved these days about the lack potential health hazards associated with enamels and laquers, increased user-friendliness of the paint, and no more frustration and fighting with the paint, unlike MM Acryl and other brand(s).  Faster builds are possible as a result of the characteristics of acrylics.  It's fun again!  I'm happier, and the wife and kid are too!  Sorry if a bit long winded, but you can see why.  The perfect paint they are not, but darn close!

A sample of my 1/72nd scale models finished exclusively with Tamiya:

F/A-18E

T-45A Goshawk

F-111F Aardvark

zokissima wrote:

A little OT, but I was wondering if there would be any adverse effects from mixing Tamiya flat base with MM acryl?

No problems at all.  I have some MM Acryl Rust that was finishing with a bit of a sheen to it, so I mixed a batch of it with an extremely heavy percentage of Tamiya Flat Base and it works wonderfully.  As with a mix of Future and Flat Base, the Flat Base does settle over time, so I have to mix it prior to airbrushing, but other than that, no worries.

MikeV,

They've proved to be very tough, provided they are allowed to cure for at least a few hours..minimum.  To combat this, I built a home-made drying oven, inspired by none other than Shep Payne, and his example from his book that he uses for artist oils.  Using the oven, it speeds the drying time down to an hour or so.  I've used Tamiya, Blue painter's, and regular masking tapes with great results.  But, if I'm telling the truth, they are not enamels, but the've held up comparitively well.  I take all the usual precautionary steps, such as cleaning the bare plastic with Denatured alcohol, then a tack cloth to prep before painting.  I've used Color of Eagels, Vallejo, Gunze, Acryl, Hannants Extracrylix, you name it.  I favor Tamiya on this wise- more for economics.  "Less bottles to buy, more colors I can mix with Tamiya." Not to mention all the minut color variations in-between without having to make another trip to the LHS.

A photo of my home-made drying oven.

Foam core forms the box with aluminum foil on the interior for heat reflection.  A hole was cut out of the top to facilitate the light fixture.  A 100-watt household bulb used here, will generate between 100 to 150 degrees.  Shown here, a resently finished F-14, airbrushed with Future is ready for decaling after 30 minutes in the oven.  1 hour prior, I had airbrushed the color coats with Tamiya paints.

MikeV wrote:

Is denatured alcohol the same as ethyl rubbing alcohol?

Actually here is the skinny on Denatured alcohol:

Denatured alcohol is ethanol with added adulterants that make it useless for consumption as an intoxicating beverage by rendering it toxic or extremely distasteful to drink, but still useful for industrial processes or as a household chemical.

Route of Entry: Skin...............YES
Route of Entry: Ingestion...............YES
Route of Entry: Inhalation..............YES
Health Hazards - Acute and Chronic......
[INGEST] EVEN SMALL AMOUNTS MAY CAUSE BLINDNESS OR DEATH.

[INHALE] IRRITATE MUCOUS MEMBRANES
[EYE] VAPOR/LIQUID CAUSES IRRITATION, TEARING AND BURNING.

[SKIN] MAY BE ABSORBED THROUGH THE SKIN IN TOXIC OR LETHAL AMOUNTS.
[CHRONIC] MAY CAUSE SYSTEMIC POISONING, BRAIN DISORDERS, IMPAIRED VISION AND BLINDNESS. INHALATION MAY WORSEN CONDITIONS OF EMPHYSEMA OR BRONCHITIS. REPEATED SKIN CONTACT MAY CAUSE DERMAL IRRITATION, DRYNESS AND CRACKING.

MikeV wrote:

So it is different from both Isopropyl alcohol and ethyl alcohol? Those are the two types I have here.

For all of those who were asking for the conversion chart, it is here:

Vallejo Paint chart  

There's two tabs at the botom of the page, the one to the right gives a simpler view of normal names, and their vallejo equivalent.  (The regular names are to the left, look it up and scroll over all the way to the right for the Vallejo equiv)

Darson from here on FSM was kind enough to come up with this, so any thanks (or complaints ) should go to him.

If you are on dial up it would be worth your while to click on the link, wait while it downloads and print it... or if using IE right click, add to favorites, then go to the icon for the page and right click the icon, then click "Make Available offline" fom the menu, which will save it to your hard drive so you don't have to download it everytime. 

For RAF Dark Green, (approx. FS34079) try XF-61.  

For the RAF Medium Sea Gray, (approx. FS36270), try XF-53. 

*These are the closest matches without mixing. 

*For dead on accuracy, I usually keep "Testors Technical Manual" closeby with their color charts and compare them side-by side.  If I need to adjust, I dab a drop of each Tamiya on plain white paper next to the color I need.  I then lighten or darken the Tamiya colors with white or black.  The variations are so close, usually this isn't nessessary.