I officially hate acrylics!

Greg,

It does inspire! Thanks for a very thorough walkthrough of your experiences. I have noticed of late a dead flat and slightly rough appearance, and will be giving denatured alcohol a try.

Bill

ISO over lacquer primer, if it dos'nt work a firecracker or M-80 works evey time. Sporting is a pellet gun @ 50 yrds.

MikeV wrote:

plasticmod992 wrote: And you're always welcome Mike.  That will surely be a striking model when complete..can't wait to see it finished.  Ok...well, don't leave us all in limbo here, what did you decide?  Enamels or acrylics??? LOL!  It was a hard decision for me, like yourself and others I'm sure.  I had enamels in my blood, so to speak, ya know?  It was hard during the transition not to grab that dependable bottle of FS "whatever" from the rack.  Well, at any rate,  good luck with whatever you decide and lets see some in-progress pics when you get an opportunity.  Later.  Greg, I want to try the Tamiya acrylics on this kit. Does iso alcohol or ethyl alcohol seem to work as well as denatured that you use? Just curious if you have tried other types and settled on the denatured because it was better? I have some work to do on it before I can repaint it as I am still trying to strip the old paint off which is a slow process as I can't submerge it in Super Clean as the cockpit is finished. Then I have to put on the standard tail and then she will be ready to paint. I have to figure out the colors I need also for that paint job.

Mike,
    Hey buddy I had the same issue with MM acryl. Then again I have had the same problem with base/clear auto paints on motorcycle helmets. Its a simple matter of adhesion. I simply switched from the MM acryls to Tamiya and havent had an issue yet with lift. I also would reccomend using blue or green tape. If the amount of tack is your problem I simply put the tape on my pants leg before use and it elimnates the problem.
    I really hate decals. I try to not use them if I can avoid it. Here is a picture of a P-51D that I have not yet finished. I copied a plane that I flew in at a local museum. Beautiful. Lots of masking and re-masking with no lift issues. Hope this helps.

plasticmod992 wrote:

I settled on Denatured Alcohol due to a difference I noticed in the atomization, spraying characteristics, and the final appearance of the paint once dried on the model.  The difference was, when thinned with 91% Isopropyl alcohol, the paint film was extremely dry, almost chalk dry, if you will.  And when I went over a previously sprayed area to fill in, say a camo outline, I experienced blushing, as if the spray from the airbrush was rewetting the dry surface film.  It looked very odd, and again very, very, dead flat.  The result early on with this, was frequent poor adhesion..even Tamiya masking tape seemed to pull the fully cured paint film right off, dispite a very clean bare plastic surface.   This prompted me to try 70% Isopropyl, with more water content.  While it thinned the paint fine, atomization suffered, due to, I suspect to the surface tention of the water in the alcohol, and in some cases, even with retarders added to compensate.  My demands were high, as the mix had to spray finelines for my 1/72nd scale jets.  I then pulled out FSM's old book, "Painting And Finishing Scale Models" authored by Paul Boyer, 1992.  I went to the chapter: "Using acrylic modeling paints", where he experimented with popular acrylics and their thinners.  Wooh, to my surprise, Paul tried *Denatured Alcohol, (pictured on page #59 of the article)  Paul mentioned he tried denatured alcohol as well as Isopropyl  for some of the acrylics he sprayed, namely Tamiya.  So I paid a meger $2.99 for a Quart at the home store, gave it a shot, and alas...... it worked very well!    This time, the paint seemed to mix more thouroughly  and atomize finer than other alcohols.  Fine line spray was emmediate, easy to achieve, control, and maintain.  And lastly, the paint film had the same characteristics like that of enamels when the spray contacted the models' surface.  The freshly sprayed paint stayed shinny or "wet" for a few moments on the models surface and slowly dried to an  even, smooth sheen with no blushing or "dead flat" appearance.  Glosses stayed glossy and flats were slightly satin, to my surprise.  I didn't have to use retarders either. The denatured alcohol seemed to re-wet any dried paint on the tip, if any, from the airbrush's needle- just like enamels and mineral spirits.  The kicker was that, adhesion was excellent, far superior- after letting the paint cure for as little as an hour, even faster cure in my home-made drying oven.  Masking tapes didn't budge it.  So this was the experiences that lead me to settle with Denatured Alcohol.  If you can get your hands on these older FSM books, do so...they retrained me in scale modeling.  Hope this inspires!

Greg,

Thanks once again for that wealth of info my friend.
I do have the book you speak of as well as several others from that time that I keep for reference.
I will definitely give your mixture a try and see how it works for me.

Thanks Pharoah.
Have you tried an adhesion promoter like Bulldog on those helmets?

I like doing decals myself, maybe I am odd.

MikeV wrote:

Thanks Pharoah. Have you tried an adhesion promoter like Bulldog on those helmets? I like doing decals myself, maybe I am odd.

I dont paint anything with 2 stage without adhesion promoter. I dont care what it is. Paint is money and poor adhesion is time and both cost dollars in my book. I guess i'm cheap. I usually always go with whatever product i'm usings promoter. If I'm using House Of  Kolor paint.. I use HOK promoter. It usually works out better. Promoter and a good clean usually works well. There is nothing you can do about poor quality paint or a bad batch.

Hey Greg, I for one have never had luck with acrylics, but I am thoroughly encouraged by your posts using Tamiya paints. Sorry Tom, but my LHS doesn't have the airplane version of Vallejo paints, not enough demand. They also recently stopped carrying Polly Scale, again not enogh demand. But there is plenty of Gunze and Tamiya. So one last question about thinning Tamiya; Greg, do you prefer denatured alcohol over Tamiya's thinner with the retarder?

 

E

Mike,

Sorry to hear about yor problem.  Of all the suggestions I have read in this thread to help you I don't recall anyone mentioning using Tamiya tape.  I think it is the best out there and should solve your lifting problems.  I use to use 3M but experienced the same problems as you.  That was the reason  I made the switch.

Chuck B.

sorry for the bad luck.  I have moved over to tamiya acrylics and will never let an enamel in my shop again.  Yes, I have seen that, you have to prep the surface as others have said.  Sorry. If you are what I see in the picture, I certainly appreciate so much what you are doing for our contry.  Thanks!

nsclcctl wrote:

If you are what I see in the picture, I certainly appreciate so much what you are doing for our contry.  Thanks!

Thanks for the support.
That picture is my son.

MikeV wrote:

nsclcctl wrote: If you are what I see in the picture, I certainly appreciate so much what you are doing for our contry.  Thanks! Thanks for the support. That picture is my son.

 

He looks just like ya, minus the beard and mustache of course!

 

E

H3nav,

Yes, I have found that Tamiya's thinner affects adhesion and the integrity of the paint film.  For example, I used Tamiya's thinner for a over-all gloss white (X-2) on a prior project in 2003.  Prior to airbrushing, I washed the bare styrene, wiped with *Plastic Prep and let the model dry overnight.  Then I airbrushed the mix.  It thinned great, but after allowing the paint to cure for two days and the paint now cured and glossy, I went to use their own masking tape for a demarcation line and..."Disaster!"  The paint came right off, down to the bare plastic.  And areas where the paint didn't come off, I noticed that the tape's adhesive had some sort of chemical reaction to the gloss paint, marring the gloss finish.  It looked horrible.  3 years later, for a recent T-45A Goshawk model, I thinned the same gloss white with Denatured Alcohol *(DNA) instead.  I took the same basic steps in preping the model and this time, success!  The paint had excellent adhesion.  Not only did the paint adhere extremely well using Tamiya and other masking tapes, but the gloss white stayed shiny and smooth.  I know what you may be thinking, as did I...did this happen with other colors?  Not the flats as much, but the gloss colors reacted consistantly badly.  This may not be others experiences, however.  Since then, I've had trouble-free painting, using *DNA.  Huh, now thats a very appropriate acrynm! 

 

I just finished a Bristol Mk.Vl using Tamiya Acrylics and had to do some masking and I didn`t have any problems at all. Very happy with them..will use again and I didn`t even have to prime.

Wow, this was very enlightning! Now I an an armor builder and gloss is not usally what I am trying to achieve. A satin finish is OK on a new vehicle. You mentioned issues with ISO alcohol so what would you recommend for flat finishes that would promote good adhision? How would the denatured alcohol work with MM paints?

gjek wrote:

How would the denatured alcohol work with MM paints?

The last time I tested MM acrylics for compatibility with various solvents, MM was NOT compatible with isopropyl (any concentration), ethyl alcohol, or methyl alcohol. That was about ten years ago, so things may have changed.

Try this: In a small glass bottle with a tightly sealing lid, mix half MM acrylic with the solvent you wish to test. Seal and wait one week. If it hasn't turned into a gooey mess or settled hard, it is compatible enough to use for spray dilution.

I use isopropyl alcohol with Model Master acrylics frequently and it works fine.  I do normally add a bit of retarder to th emix to slow drying time though.  I haven't tried denatured alcohol though.  I have some I use for other things though and will give it a try somt time.

MIke, 
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