War in the Desert - African campaign GB - 12/9/07 to 5/13/08

Ummmm... ... ... ... is it Dec 9th yet?

Yeah!  I was wondering what happened to this GB idea since it was presented in the Armor forum!!  Didn't see this thread until just now! 

Hermes, put me down for a Dragon M4A1, American 1st Armored Division!  I've had this kit for several months, all AM parts already bought and its ready to go! 

I also want to do a PzKpfw III DAK version....does anyone know if the Ausf J version was used by the 5th or 21st Panzer divisions during the Sidi Bou Zid, Kasserine Pass or El Guettar engagements?  I'd love to build Dragon's new Ausf J Smart Kit OOB for this!

Thanks and I'm looking forward to getting started.

bufflehead wrote:

Yeah!  I was wondering what happened to this GB idea since it was presented in the Armor forum!!  Didn't see this thread until just now!  Hermes, put me down for a Dragon M4A1, American 1st Armored Division!  I've had this kit for several months, all AM parts already bought and its ready to go!  I also want to do a PzKpfw III DAK version....does anyone know if the Ausf J version was used by the 5th or 21st Panzer divisions during the Sidi Bou Zid, Kasserine Pass or El Guettar engagements?  I'd love to build Dragon's new Ausf J Smart Kit OOB for this! Thanks and I'm looking forward to getting started.

 .... that's a tough question, even tougher to find photo evidence.  I think it is safe to say yes, there was a few still kicking about in Tunisia, but not many.  I know the panzer IIIJ, or mark III special as the British called it, was present at Gazala (May 26 to June 21, 1942) and a source stated the number of this type as being only 19.  Production of this type had begun in March, 1941 while in June of 1942 the L version took over - which is more prevelant with the Tunisian campaign and the 10th panzer division.  With regards to the battles you mention, the only hard evidence I could find was the OOB from a game, stating at Sidi Bou Zid that   Kampfgruppe Stenkoff composition included four Pz IIIj.

1942 November 8 (that's today, 65 years ago )

"'Operation Torch' underway in North West Africa-Allied expeditonary force appears off ports of Algiers, Oran and Casablanca."

Courtsey of my Ghosts calander...

Thanks jgeratic1!  I totally forgot about the 10th Panzer Division being present during that timeframe.  Turns out that Dragon kit does have markings for the 10th Panzer Div in Tunisia, 1943.  I also read that the kit can be made into a very early Ausf L by deleting the turret side vision ports.  I may go this route....OR.....I may do a PzKpfw III Ausf H.  The Dragon kit I have in my stash has markings for the 15th Panzer Div, also Tunisia 1943.  I want to do a Pz III that was used during the early engagements with the Americans in Tunisia.

bufflehead wrote:

Thanks jgeratic1!  I totally forgot about the 10th Panzer Division being present during that timeframe.  Turns out that Dragon kit does have markings for the 10th Panzer Div in Tunisia, 1943.  I also read that the kit can be made into a very early Ausf L by deleting the turret side vision ports.  I may go this route....OR.....I may do a PzKpfw III Ausf H.  The Dragon kit I have in my stash has markings for the 15th Panzer Div, also Tunisia 1943.  I want to do a Pz III that was used during the early engagements with the Americans in Tunisia.

The Concord publications Armor At War Series, "Panzers in North Africa", has several reference pics Panzer III Ausf.L's.  For the most part, they don't identify the unit, but one is clearly referenced as the 15th Panzer-Division, Tunisia, 1943.

Regards,  Rick

rjkplasticmod wrote:

bufflehead wrote: Thanks jgeratic1!  I totally forgot about the 10th Panzer Division being present during that timeframe.  Turns out that Dragon kit does have markings for the 10th Panzer Div in Tunisia, 1943.  I also read that the kit can be made into a very early Ausf L by deleting the turret side vision ports.  I may go this route....OR.....I may do a PzKpfw III Ausf H.  The Dragon kit I have in my stash has markings for the 15th Panzer Div, also Tunisia 1943.  I want to do a Pz III that was used during the early engagements with the Americans in Tunisia. The Concord publications Armor At War Series, "Panzers in North Africa", has several reference pics Panzer III Ausf.L's.  For the most part, they don't identify the unit, but one is clearly referenced as the 15th Panzer-Division, Tunisia, 1943. Regards,  Rick

Thanks Rick!  That's great info!  I'm going to pick that one up and also "The Panzerkampfwagen III at War"  that they also publish!

A question for you tank guys out there, is anybody planning on doing the Tasca 1/35 M4A1 for this build?  From what I've read it sure looks like a great kit.

Another question for the experienced Armor modelers.  What is the best paint color to represent the German Africa Dark Yellow , circa 1943?  I prefer enamels, but am OK with Acrylics as well.

Regards,  Rick

This subject is open to a lot of debate.  That being said, as of February  18, 1943 "dark yellow" was the base colour for all vehicles leaving the production lines.  I'm not sure what, if any, reinforcements were sent to Tunisia after this date so can't say if this colour appeared in the desert.
Vehicles before said date were sent to north africa in the standard panzer grey and were later in the field modified with desert paint colours.  In 1943 these would be Braun RAL 8020 with Grau RAL 7027 used as an optional camou pattern.
There was also mention of tigers being a dark green or even olive colour.  These were most likely panzer grey with an overspray of olive-green which gave it's dark green appearance.

As for paint manufactures, there is a few to choose from: Testors, White Ensign Models, Life Color Paints, Xtracolor, Xtracrylix, Agama.  If anyone knows of others, please do chip in.

Some articles to read:

http://www.panzerworld.net/colours

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/articles/camo.htm 

Jack 

Thanks for the links Jack.  I had picked up a bottle of ModelMaster enamel, RAL 7008, but it looked a little dark after I compared it to pics & art work.  I suppose it would be OK with dusty weathering.

Regards,  Rick

You are welcome, Rick.  You should note that after reading the articles, the colour you have - Graugrün RAL 7008 (grey-green) - was intended to be used only on one third of the vehicle for camouflage purposes. 

Jack

Glamdring wrote:

Hermesminiatures wrote: That Revell/Monogram P-38 is one of the reasons I build armor That was the last aircraft kit I built, about 2 years ago. I further compounded the headache by doing the nightfighting version. I learned patience from that beast, and that was about it. I Agree 100%, that is truely a bad kit.

I have THREE Revel P38s I am building at the same time for the P38 & LOckheed GB. And I am a newbie. Been getting my sanding experience for sure. ANd the main reason Im hunting for other GBs to build EASIER Tamiyas or non-Revell stuff..... Can only spend an hour of time (and patience) a week on the P38s....

Can you put me down for the (easier) Tamiya 1:35 M3 Stuart and/or Tamiya 1:48 Bf 1090 E4/7 TROP? I want to do the Tamiya Panzer IV Ausf D to keep it "all german" but I do not have the instructions :(

Will start them probably in Jan, need to finish some stuff and AB before I shut down my spray booth for winter time... Will build OOB, have <10 built kits under my belt....

Cheers, Jim

Ok, I stopped at the LHS this morning & picked up a bottle of Tamiya Desert Yellow acrylic.  I get confused by all the RAL numbers, but would this be more appropriate for Africa Korps, 1943?

Regards,  Rick

Jim the instructions for the Tamiya Panzer IV Ausf D can be found at

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10000210

Jack thanks for the heads up on the panzer colors.  As I'm doing a Panzer III Ausf.L from the 10th Panzer Reg in Feb 1943 should I should go for a base coat over panzer grey and then add the desert yellow, correct?

Cheers

Hi Darren,

Yes, just to clarify, base coat would be panzer grey followed by the appropriate "desert yellow".  Depending how weathered and beaten you want the tank to look, then some of the grey would  show through, like edges and scuffed surfaces made by the crew.

Rick brought up the question of using Tamiya's desert yellow. Well, it is much more accurate than using their dark yellow.  I haven't tried it myself, but do recall other people suggesting it. In an earlier post I introduced a list of paint manufactures - they all attempted to match their colours to paint chips of the RAL series. 

When I get a chance during daylight hours, I'll post a digital shot so Tamiya's desert yellow can be compared to Braun RAL 8020 - the colour specified for use on March 25, 1942 and for the duration of the African campaign.

For now an image search produced these swatches:

Tamiya desert yellow

RAL 8020

Jack

Thanks Jack! I've done a bit of hunting myself to find a decent match for RAL 8020 in either Gunze or Tamiya acrylic paints and according to the site below they recommend either Tamiya XF-57 Buff of Gunze H79 dark Yellow.

http://www.miniatures.de/int/colour-ral-farben.html

Cheers 

Someone recommended Tamiya BUFF? Just glancing at my paint rack - it looks nothing like that color swatch that jgeratic posted above.

I'm kind of surprised that no paint company actually makes a match for "afrika yellow"? 

Thanks Jack & Darren.  Judging colors on the internet is tricky due to the digital processing & differences in monitor calibrations.  The Tamiya Desert Yellow that I have is darker than the swatch shown, about half way between that & the RAL swatch.  In any case, I would guess the paint would have rapidly faded in the sun & sand exposure.

Regards,  Rick

I think the color swatch jgeratic1 posted is a bit too dark. I've seen RAL 8020 confused quite often with RAL 7008-f Afrika Khakibraun. The true Afrikabraun has no olive shade, it's kind of a pinkish tan. Here is a more accurate representation of RAL 8020 Afrikabraun:

Also, have a look at the color on this tank - by various means of comparison (the sky, sand, flesh color, etc.) it has been determined to be fairly correct in shade:

I've found MM enamels to be the most accurate for RAL 8020 (the Tamiya color is a little off but fairly close) MM 2012 RAL 8020 is a good starting point. MM 2099 RAL 8000 Afrika Gunbraun and MM 2103 RAL 7027 Afrika Dunkelgrau are useful for post shading and varying the tone of RAL 8020.

darson wrote:

Jim the instructions for the Tamiya Panzer IV Ausf D can be found at http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10000210

Unfortunately, I had already checked that web site, they only have the Japanese version of instructions.... I will try and build by "eye" and use an otherT amiya "oldie" P IV instructions for help.... thanks anyways :)

dupes wrote:

I'm kind of surprised that no paint company actually makes a match for "afrika yellow"?

Actually, I have a box of "WW2 German Armor" enamels (sold as a kit), including the "afrika yellow"... once I get home, I will look up the exact name and numbers....

If anybody's interested - Dragon is releasing a Panzer III Ausf. N, should be out by December 9th

It's a Smart Kit.  I'm only allowed to build Dummie kits .

Regards,  Rick

rjkplasticmod wrote:

It's a Smart Kit.  I'm only allowed to build Dummie kits . Regards,  Rick

  There's a wise guy in every group Build isn't there?!?!

JMart wrote:

dupes wrote: I'm kind of surprised that no paint company actually makes a match for "afrika yellow"?  Actually, I have a box of "WW2 German Armor" enamels (sold as a kit), including the "afrika yellow"... once I get home, I will look up the exact name and numbers....

Here is the info I wrote down some time ago... MM Enamels for N Africa campaign German armor:

Panzer Dunkelgelb (Dark yellow) - MM 2095

For camo/shadowing:

Afrika Dunkelgrau (dark gray) MM2103 (until late 1942)

Afrika Khaki broun (khaki brown) 41 - MM 2098

Afrika Braun (brown) '42 - MM 2102

Afrika Grunbraun (green-brown) '41  MM2099

Note: this info is from the vendor, not primary sources

Thanks JMart.  I'll check those out next trip to the LHS.

Regards,  Rick