Odds and Ends Forum

The nuke has popped, all debris have stopped falling, but the fallout is just beginning I suspect....

Aaron,

 As you state above,the problems were the actions of several members.Why not take action against those and let the rest of have the deleted forum??

Thanks,George

Can't say we weren't warned...........several times!

I got a deer to butcher........later.

Hi Everyone,

I am not sure where to post this now, but I wanted to give everyone an update on Berny.  I talked to his wife and he is still alive, but just barely.  She said he can hardly talk and when he does, it is very hard to understand him.  She thinks he is holding out for his son to arrive tomorrow.  I believe that is true.  He most certainly is a fighter.

Ken

Ken, Thanks for posting this update, especially in this particular thread. I also Berny could hold death at bay until his son can arrive.

It's important to note that since some people feel they have the freedom to do whatever they want, without regard for the results, one of the results of this weekend's idiocy resulted in the closure of a forum that was giving us updates on the deteriorating condition of one of our most respected members.

Another result is that it appears that there is no longer a means of searching for archived posts. I get nothing but "Resource not found" errors. I hope this can get fixed, so that we can still access Berny's extensive knowledge, which he freely shared here.

George, that has been tried before. Short of outright banning someone for life, it never works. For some reason, getting a "time-out" on here is considered a Badge of Honor. Much like wise-guys or gang-bangers getting hammered by 'The Man" it is seen as something good. So when their "sentence" is up, they go right back to the same thing, and the wheel turns...

I have been here awhile and have seen numerous warnings, some subtle and others less so. They have all been ignored. Some people have so little regard for the admins here that they will make threads about the warnings and essentially throw it right back into Aaron and Matt's teeth. How long did anyone really think that was going to last?

For you parents, how many times do you keep telling your children to stop doing something before you have to stop talking and start showing you mean business? Same for any of you that have ever been in any kind of supervisor position? You can only threaten so much.

The worst that will happen is that a few people who were only here for the Off-Topic and frivolous posts will lose their reason for being here and move on to greener pastures. You can count those on one hand with a couple fingers left over.

tl;dr version, we brought this on ourselves.

Regards,

Jeff

I will say that I'm glad to see it go.  I was getting the feeling that the forum, as a whole, was becoming too much like a social networking site were anybody could talk about anything.  Save that for Facebook or something other site like that.

I'll also admit that I got into some "heated" discussions with some of the other members and I had been warned by Aaron.  But, I can say I was warned once.  As in, I didn't need a second warning.

I'm not too hopeful about the future of the forum though.  I have the feeling that the closure of the O&E forum will just invigorate the offenerds to move onto another section of the forum and reek more havoc.

We'll see....

-Jesse

Thanks for the update Ken. I trust berny will make it until his son arrives. Prayers for he and his family.

DoogsATX

 

jetmodeler:

 

WOW! I miss four days of being on the forum, log on today and this post is here talking about some members that messed things up for all of us, and the "Odds and Ends" forum section being deleted.

I must have missed A LOT in those four days.

 

 

yes and no...

Wait a minute. That's two posts for Manny.

I didn't know Berny, but please send condolences from the FSM forums. It is indeed a shame that we lost many good and relevant topics and thread due to the loss of the O&Es.

I think the O&E should be restored. Though it can, and has been, a volatile place, there is indeed a need for an outlet for humor, for socializing, for updating everyone on personal events and issue, and without the O&E, that impulse and need is just going to inevitably gravitate to other forums and populate those forums, where many modelers have no interest at all in reading them. And we run the risk of once again confronting the same issue of excessive frivolity and gratuitous post-padding.

The O&E's should be restored. But with the caveat that when Friday afternoon comes, if ANYONE starts any "baiting" threads or posts over the weekend because the moderator is out, they're GONE Monday morning baby, buh-bye. No second chances.These past two weekends' antics should be enough to prove that Friday ain't "free-for-all" day.

I think everyone has had their say and in enough eloquence, god knows, to have beaten an entire herd of Wyld Mustangs to death!

Speaking for myself, as just one of the many people asking for a toning-down of what was seen as the excessive goofiness starting to permeate the forums, I learned how important it is for some people to just be....silly at times. Just smack-your-buddy-upside-the-head, RRRRRUFF!!-like-Curly Three Stooges-like plain silly. Maybe it's a needed relief from work, or combat, or just plain boredom from an empty house? Fine. Not my thing, necessarily, but I accept that some threads will be places where I and other who felt the same will never post, but I for one will not complain about their existence--but not that that was the issue really in the first place.

No one that I have spoken to for the entire time that this issue had been brewing--at least a month or more--had ever wanted the O&E, or the humor to stop or be "gone"--just for the incessant "yuk yukking" and "post padding" in modeling threads to be curtailed with some respect. Maybe we can get there now, if everyone is willing to respect the wishes of everyone else.? I feel that it was that lack of respect for a simple request that precipitated and caused this whole mess in the first place.

And as far as I'm concerned, its all water under the bridge. Let's learn from this, turn over a new leaf, open a new tab, and get back to modeling.

And yet we continue to beat a dead horse.  Restoring O&E (which I think it should be), will send us right back to where we were.  Probably not right away but sooner than later.  As much as I have faith in our members (my self included) to behave the reality is a bit different.  I see no other way, and i speak from experience, but this place needs a mod after hours.

my

the doog

I didn't know Benny, but please send condolences from the FSM forums. It is indeed a shame that we lost many good and relevant topics and thread due to the loss of the O&Es.

I think the O&E should be restored. Though it can, and has been, a volatile place, there is indeed a need for an outlet for humor, for socializing, for updating everyone on personal events and issue, and without the O&E, that impulse and need is just going to inevitably gravitate to other forums and populate those forums, where many modelers have no interest at all in reading them. And we run the risk of once again confronting the same issue of excessive frivolity and gratuitous post-padding.

The O&E's should be restored. But with the caveat that when Friday afternoon comes, if ANYONE starts any "baiting" threads or posts over the weekend because the moderator is out, they're GONE Monday morning baby, buh-bye. No second chances.These past two weekends' antics should be enough to prove that Friday ain't "free-for-all" day.

I think everyone has had their say and in enough eloquence, god knows, to have beaten an entire herd of Wyld Mustangs to death!

Speaking for myself, as just one of the many people asking for a toning-down of what was seen as the excessive goofiness starting to permeate the forums, I learned how important it is for some people to just be....silly at times. Just smack-your-buddy-upside-the-head, RRRRRUFF!!-like-Curly Three Stooges-like plain silly. Maybe it's a needed relief from work, or combat, or just plain boredom from an empty house? Fine. Not my thing, necessarily, but I accept that some threads will be places where I and other who felt the same will never post, but I for one will not complain about their existence--but not that that was the issue really in the first place.

No one that I have spoken to for the entire time that this issue had been brewing--at least a month or more--had ever wanted the O&E, or the humor to stop or be "gone"--just for the incessant "yuk yukking" and "post padding" in modeling threads to be curtailed with some respect. Maybe we can get there now, if everyone is willing to respect the wishes of everyone else.? I feel that it was that lack of respect for a simple request that precipitated and caused this whole mess in the first place.

And as far as I'm concerned, its all water under the bridge. Let's learn from this, turn over a new leaf, open a new tab, and get back to modeling.

 

 

I think Karl has pretty much nailed it. O&E can be a good place to blow off some steam and humor definately has a place here. Having said that, It would be a huge mistake for the admins to cave this early. Ideally, to me anyways, O&E would magically show up again sometime in the November-December time frame.

Also, Karl, I need to apologize for sitting on the sidelines and letting you(spelling and grammer abortion ahoy) bare the brunt of what went on over the last few days. I and I am sure many others were looking at what you said and cheering from the sidelines. That and the fact that you did it over multiple threads, often repeating yourself, didn't go unnoticed.Speaking for myself, I was hoping that one of the forums most respected members would be able to cut through the BS and get people's attention. That didn't happen through no fault of your own. At the end of the day, all you can do is try.

And any of you who think I am currying favor need to brush up on your forum history, me and Karl have butted heads and locked horns too many times to count. I have a new found respect that goes beyond his modeling skills now.

Regards,

Jeff

Karl, it's BERNY, not Benny. Just a heads up!

I would like very much to agree that the O&E should come back. In time, perhaps I will even argue for it to return. Right now, I can't say that it's disappearance isn't all that bad of a thing. The last few months the "hilarity" has been getting worse and more insulting, and no matter how many times Aaron came on here and patiently tried to curtail the increasingly bad behavior, it continued. Then with equally increasingly less patience, he still tried to achieve his objective, which was to let everyone have a little fun and to keep the peace. Even taking on a new persona of Judge Dread. Many of the culprits of this past weekend mouthed accordance with his rules, and the moment his back was turned, returned to their habits. I'm sure, after spending the weekend enjoying his family, he did not appreciate coming back to the nut farm, and wade through the piles of complaints.

I think we're lucky that there is even a forum left for us.

tigerman

DoogsATX:

 

jetmodeler:

 

WOW! I miss four days of being on the forum, log on today and this post is here talking about some members that messed things up for all of us, and the "Odds and Ends" forum section being deleted.

I must have missed A LOT in those four days.

 

 

yes and no...

 

Wait a minute. That's two posts for Manny.

Anyway the way I see it is this:  anyone who followed the "meltdown" from Friday through this morning would have seen that the "offenders" had actually worked out their differences to a large degree (both in open Forum and thru PM's) and things were becoming very civil on their own.  In fact, many members who had been at each others' throats over the weekend were actually carrying on conversations in open Forum as if they were long-time pals.  I do know that a lot of off-site "truces" had been called and were being honored. 

In fact, tha lack of any action on the Mods part Monday had me thinking that Aaaron and Matt were going to let "us work it out on our own" and were using a deliberate and deft hand for a change.  Someone posted an anology: "The wildfire burned itself out".  But more than that; trees were being replanted and birds were singing again.  Sort of a shame I guess because in the past the suspensions and changes came in the heat of the moment when blood was up and hot. 

IMHO the Mods would have been wise to keep hands off (since they had for three days as it were) and watched to see if for once the adult members could come to the peace table and settle their differences on their own .  As anyone who has been in battle knows, an agreed upon peace lasts longer and is stronger than an enforced one.  O&E topics will just migrate to other areas, as this thread has, so really nothing has changed. Am I losing sleep over it?  No.  Am I storming out in a huff?  No...

Those of you who disagree with me wil probably argue that "we" had been given several "chances and warnings" before the O&E forum was eliminated.  But those who say that miss my point.  Having the members make peace on their own was a watershed learning moment that the Forum experienced, then had taken away....

the doog

I think the O&E should be restored. Though it can, and has been, a volatile place, there is indeed a need for an outlet for humor, for socializing, for updating everyone on personal events and issue, and without the O&E, that impulse and need is just going to inevitably gravitate to other forums and populate those forums, where many modelers have no interest at all in reading them. And we run the risk of once again confronting the same issue of excessive frivolity and gratuitous post-padding.

Absolutely agree. There were some serious threads in the O & E. I can't imagine diluting the quality of the main threads with non-modeling substance. We do need some outlet for these things.

I started a thread in O&E on Sunday and asked that we all try to drop the back and forth complaints that were only escalating and not solving a thing . What did i get ? One serious reply first and then a childish remark lastly . Two post !  Non of you really cared as far as i'm concerned ! Yes i got fed up with the remarks just like the rest of you and said my part . We had a chance to be adult about the entire mess and we just simply went on our bullheaded ways and destroyed the validity of having a O&E forum . We are to blame ! Non of us can hold our nose in the air and claim any type of superiority over any others that participated ...and i include MYSELF .

I'm glad O&E is gone .It had some fun threads that i indulged in gladly along with threads of interest about other members , but in the end  all that the O&E forum was providing  was a place for relentless arguments and it was getting sickening ! I just hope that the arguing doesn't spread to the model forums .

Thank me , goodbye !

Hans von Hammer

 

O&E topics will just migrate to other areas...

 

In the "For What It's Worth Now" department,  the BIG weekend fire-storm started in here, "General Modeling Discussions", not O&E...

Ain't sayin' anythin' else one way or 'nother.. Just happens to be so...

The problem was a troll attack, and by a pseudo member.

What cooked the deal and resulted in brains in a cloth helmet hanging from a tree was that the rest of us took it on.

Me not so much, in truth, but there were significant statements that came in from members of the top 10 posters that turned it into a brawl. The obvious reason is that all had opinions about "something".

Shame on me, shame on you. The mods were left to sponging up the cerebral detritus and that IS NOT FAIR.

The internet cannot be effectively managed. It can be sorted though, which is a reductive process. I've got a big inbox of PM's from people who are pissed at some guy who calls himself Bondo.

“Do not quench your inspiration and your
imagination; do not become the slave of
your model.” — Vincent van Gogh

I suppose I may have a different take on all this, and I have to admit to have missed the whole thing.  I tend to mostly make or respond to posts that are about models or aircraft details.  I get a lot of humor and jokes in my e-mail and I don't read much of it. I admit some people see me as boring or colorless, but I just don't live there.  In truth it is the nature of humor to be at someone or somethings expense, and there is a big downside in that.

When something comes up like this and the management steps in people seem to think it's Big Brother stepping on their necks.  Well, maybe, but I think it is more likely, or more appropriately, that FSM has a vision about what this forum should be about.  When we veer too far from that vision then they take steps to heard the membership back on course for the long term health of the forum.  If we don't take gentle hints then they have to be more obvious.  Does anyone think that is a lot of fun for them, or Aaron in particular?  If there is any reason to try to be more gentle, that may be it.

Let's continue this as a fun and interesting place, one post at a time.  Let's have discussion and lively controversy, with a big dose of respect.

Very well said John.

Too many skilled & knowledgeable people have left based on the behavior/action of a few.  Hopefully we can  get back to what this forum used to be.

Very well said indeed, John.

Most of us being male, we don't tend to take subtle suggestions. We need neon or someone to beat it into us!

Shellback

Thank me , goodbye !

 

OK. Thank you.

jeaton01

I suppose I may have a different take on all this, and I have to admit to have missed the whole thing.  I tend to mostly make or respond to posts that are about models or aircraft details.  I get a lot of humor and jokes in my e-mail and I don't read much of it. I admit some people see me as boring or colorless, but I just don't live there.  In truth it is the nature of humor to be at someone or somethings expense, and there is a big downside in that.

When something comes up like this and the management steps in people seem to think it's Big Brother stepping on their necks.  Well, maybe, but I think it is more likely, or more appropriately, that FSM has a vision about what this forum should be about.  When we veer too far from that vision then they take steps to heard the membership back on course for the long term health of the forum.  If we don't take gentle hints then they have to be more obvious.  Does anyone think that is a lot of fun for them, or Aaron in particular?  If there is any reason to try to be more gentle, that may be it.

Let's continue this as a fun and interesting place, one post at a time.  Let's have discussion and lively controversy, with a big dose of respect.

To quote a friend of mine's dad (who is the most humorless person I know, yet hilarious in a very dry sort of way), "I don't like jokes".

I know I, for one, have never regarded FSM or Aaron or anyone here or managing this forum as Big Brother. Timer Warner and AT&T, yes. FSM, no. I've been on the other side and I understand their actions. I would have maybe taken a different path, but I don't think there's any question that something had to be done after this weekend.

And amen to respect and to taking things one post at a time!

To be honest I’m not sure what it used to be but the recent behavior is pretty consistent with what I have observed since I subscribed to FSM and actually participated in a few forum discussions. I’m not trying to be sarcastic, just saying I am fairly new and was surprised at how people interacted on many issues in the short time I observed. I am one of the old guys that was away from the hobby for 30 yrs and was very excited to find a “virtual community” of other model builders where I could learn and hopefully contribute something useful once in awhile. To me this hobby is all about fun and relaxation. Mind you I am not saying that I have never stomped away from the work bench in frustration and exasperation at my latest blunder, but by and large it is often a refuge from the more serious pressures and troubles in my world. That is why I found it so surprising that many seemed to turn this hobby into one more thing to fight about. These conflicts often seemed to arise from the fact that someone attained a “label” for some real or perceived comment on the Odds and Ends forum. Once that label was applied there was no relenting in the type of baiting and “piling on” that could be expected in most future conversations no matter which forum it occurred in. Basically I decided this is not what the hobby was about for me so I left. I did not leave angry of frustrated, I just decided that it seemed most folks (or at least the “core” group) of these forums wanted it to be something very different than what I was looking for. Like many things in life what could have been a negative had a positive side because the time spent away from the forums was often spent at the bench re-learning lost skills. I have also found that the “cyber world” often magnifies personality traits. The bullies get mouthier, the very sensitive get a bigger chip on their shoulder and the generous give even more of themselves. And like so many have observed it is guaranteed that we will often be misunderstood in our communication efforts. In closing I would like to reiterate the fact that I understand the forums are not about what I want, but we should also think about whether something is worth fighting about. And I am not saying we should all agree and feel “warm and fuzzy”.  We should all speak our minds and have convictions worth standing by. But when it degenerates into general bickering and meanness you can count me out. When I look at the world we live in there seems to be enough conflict and hardship to go around without me adding to it with my hobby participation. If this all sounds a bit too philosophical it may be partially due to the loss of a family friend recently. He was weeks away from retirement and looking forward to spending time on his hobbies and with his wife and family. From the time the doctors said “there is something wrong here” to the time he died was 5 weeks! It really has made me stop and reassess some priorities and think twice about what I am willing to get all worked up about. To all the mentors who hang out here thanks for the advice you give I still read it and learn from it. I hope someday to be at a skill level where I can contribute some pics and advice myself. To all those who state their opinions and beliefs firmly but respectfully kudos to you. To those who truly enjoy conflict, I understand we need all different types in the world but it does not hurt to stand back and consider the impact we may be having on others once in awhile. It could be that post counts and plastic model kits aren’t quite as important as we often make them out to be. Lastly to the folks who run the forums thanks for working tirelessly at a largely thankless job and thanks for having courage to do what you believe is right even when it is not an easy decision.

Gil . very well said . I'll remember your words .

Shellback

I started a thread in O&E on Sunday and asked that we all try to drop the back and forth complaints that were only escalating and not solving a thing . What did i get ? One serious reply first and then a childish remark lastly . Two post !  Non of you really cared as far as i'm concerned ! Yes i got fed up with the remarks just like the rest of you and said my part . We had a chance to be adult about the entire mess and we just simply went on our bullheaded ways and destroyed the validity of having a O&E forum . We are to blame ! Non of us can hold our nose in the air and claim any type of superiority over any others that participated ...and i include MYSELF .

I'm glad O&E is gone .It had some fun threads that i indulged in gladly along with threads of interest about other members , but in the end  all that the O&E forum was providing  was a place for relentless arguments and it was getting sickening ! I just hope that the arguing doesn't spread to the model forums .

Thank me , goodbye !

 

We? Even though we are a collective bunch on here we are all responsible for our own actions. Because some children ruined a good forum where us members who have made friendships on here and liked to discuss our other interests is no reason to blame all of us. Without an off topic forum we can no longer talk about our pets, our gardening, or our music, (there are several musicians here).

I think that is ridiculous. What the forum needs is moderators who can suspend childish threads and keep the peace. This is the only forum I have ever been to that does not have moderators who are regular posters and I think that is sad.

tigerman

 

the doog:

 

I think the O&E should be restored. Though it can, and has been, a volatile place, there is indeed a need for an outlet for humor, for socializing, for updating everyone on personal events and issue, and without the O&E, that impulse and need is just going to inevitably gravitate to other forums and populate those forums, where many modelers have no interest at all in reading them. And we run the risk of once again confronting the same issue of excessive frivolity and gratuitous post-padding.

 

 

Absolutely agree. There were some serious threads in the O & E. I can't imagine diluting the quality of the main threads with non-modeling substance. We do need some outlet for these things.

I third that notion. Many of us spent more time in the O&E than any other forum and many of us have been here a long time.

I enjoyed that forum. I'd like to see it reopened. We can't allow it to be that easy for the trolls to close sections of our forums down 

Why not limit or closed membership to a new Ods & ends forum, like the Test Forum section I used to be a member of? You act up you are removed from that section for a year.