Odds and Ends Forum

“Do not quench your inspiration and your
imagination; do not become the slave of
your model.” — Vincent van Gogh

Hans von Hammer

 

O&E topics will just migrate to other areas...

 

In the "For What It's Worth Now" department,  the BIG weekend fire-storm started in here, "General Modeling Discussions", not O&E...

Ain't sayin' anythin' else one way or 'nother.. Just happens to be so...

The problem was a troll attack, and by a pseudo member.

What cooked the deal and resulted in brains in a cloth helmet hanging from a tree was that the rest of us took it on.

Me not so much, in truth, but there were significant statements that came in from members of the top 10 posters that turned it into a brawl. The obvious reason is that all had opinions about "something".

Shame on me, shame on you. The mods were left to sponging up the cerebral detritus and that IS NOT FAIR.

The internet cannot be effectively managed. It can be sorted though, which is a reductive process. I've got a big inbox of PM's from people who are pissed at some guy who calls himself Bondo.

I started a thread in O&E on Sunday and asked that we all try to drop the back and forth complaints that were only escalating and not solving a thing . What did i get ? One serious reply first and then a childish remark lastly . Two post !  Non of you really cared as far as i'm concerned ! Yes i got fed up with the remarks just like the rest of you and said my part . We had a chance to be adult about the entire mess and we just simply went on our bullheaded ways and destroyed the validity of having a O&E forum . We are to blame ! Non of us can hold our nose in the air and claim any type of superiority over any others that participated ...and i include MYSELF .

I'm glad O&E is gone .It had some fun threads that i indulged in gladly along with threads of interest about other members , but in the end  all that the O&E forum was providing  was a place for relentless arguments and it was getting sickening ! I just hope that the arguing doesn't spread to the model forums .

Thank me , goodbye !

the doog

I think the O&E should be restored. Though it can, and has been, a volatile place, there is indeed a need for an outlet for humor, for socializing, for updating everyone on personal events and issue, and without the O&E, that impulse and need is just going to inevitably gravitate to other forums and populate those forums, where many modelers have no interest at all in reading them. And we run the risk of once again confronting the same issue of excessive frivolity and gratuitous post-padding.

Absolutely agree. There were some serious threads in the O & E. I can't imagine diluting the quality of the main threads with non-modeling substance. We do need some outlet for these things.

tigerman

DoogsATX:

 

jetmodeler:

 

WOW! I miss four days of being on the forum, log on today and this post is here talking about some members that messed things up for all of us, and the "Odds and Ends" forum section being deleted.

I must have missed A LOT in those four days.

 

 

yes and no...

 

Wait a minute. That's two posts for Manny.

Anyway the way I see it is this:  anyone who followed the "meltdown" from Friday through this morning would have seen that the "offenders" had actually worked out their differences to a large degree (both in open Forum and thru PM's) and things were becoming very civil on their own.  In fact, many members who had been at each others' throats over the weekend were actually carrying on conversations in open Forum as if they were long-time pals.  I do know that a lot of off-site "truces" had been called and were being honored. 

In fact, tha lack of any action on the Mods part Monday had me thinking that Aaaron and Matt were going to let "us work it out on our own" and were using a deliberate and deft hand for a change.  Someone posted an anology: "The wildfire burned itself out".  But more than that; trees were being replanted and birds were singing again.  Sort of a shame I guess because in the past the suspensions and changes came in the heat of the moment when blood was up and hot. 

IMHO the Mods would have been wise to keep hands off (since they had for three days as it were) and watched to see if for once the adult members could come to the peace table and settle their differences on their own .  As anyone who has been in battle knows, an agreed upon peace lasts longer and is stronger than an enforced one.  O&E topics will just migrate to other areas, as this thread has, so really nothing has changed. Am I losing sleep over it?  No.  Am I storming out in a huff?  No...

Those of you who disagree with me wil probably argue that "we" had been given several "chances and warnings" before the O&E forum was eliminated.  But those who say that miss my point.  Having the members make peace on their own was a watershed learning moment that the Forum experienced, then had taken away....

Karl, it's BERNY, not Benny. Just a heads up!

I would like very much to agree that the O&E should come back. In time, perhaps I will even argue for it to return. Right now, I can't say that it's disappearance isn't all that bad of a thing. The last few months the "hilarity" has been getting worse and more insulting, and no matter how many times Aaron came on here and patiently tried to curtail the increasingly bad behavior, it continued. Then with equally increasingly less patience, he still tried to achieve his objective, which was to let everyone have a little fun and to keep the peace. Even taking on a new persona of Judge Dread. Many of the culprits of this past weekend mouthed accordance with his rules, and the moment his back was turned, returned to their habits. I'm sure, after spending the weekend enjoying his family, he did not appreciate coming back to the nut farm, and wade through the piles of complaints.

I think we're lucky that there is even a forum left for us.

I think Karl has pretty much nailed it. O&E can be a good place to blow off some steam and humor definately has a place here. Having said that, It would be a huge mistake for the admins to cave this early. Ideally, to me anyways, O&E would magically show up again sometime in the November-December time frame.

Also, Karl, I need to apologize for sitting on the sidelines and letting you(spelling and grammer abortion ahoy) bare the brunt of what went on over the last few days. I and I am sure many others were looking at what you said and cheering from the sidelines. That and the fact that you did it over multiple threads, often repeating yourself, didn't go unnoticed.Speaking for myself, I was hoping that one of the forums most respected members would be able to cut through the BS and get people's attention. That didn't happen through no fault of your own. At the end of the day, all you can do is try.

And any of you who think I am currying favor need to brush up on your forum history, me and Karl have butted heads and locked horns too many times to count. I have a new found respect that goes beyond his modeling skills now.

Regards,

Jeff

the doog

I didn't know Benny, but please send condolences from the FSM forums. It is indeed a shame that we lost many good and relevant topics and thread due to the loss of the O&Es.

I think the O&E should be restored. Though it can, and has been, a volatile place, there is indeed a need for an outlet for humor, for socializing, for updating everyone on personal events and issue, and without the O&E, that impulse and need is just going to inevitably gravitate to other forums and populate those forums, where many modelers have no interest at all in reading them. And we run the risk of once again confronting the same issue of excessive frivolity and gratuitous post-padding.

The O&E's should be restored. But with the caveat that when Friday afternoon comes, if ANYONE starts any "baiting" threads or posts over the weekend because the moderator is out, they're GONE Monday morning baby, buh-bye. No second chances.These past two weekends' antics should be enough to prove that Friday ain't "free-for-all" day.

I think everyone has had their say and in enough eloquence, god knows, to have beaten an entire herd of Wyld Mustangs to death!

Speaking for myself, as just one of the many people asking for a toning-down of what was seen as the excessive goofiness starting to permeate the forums, I learned how important it is for some people to just be....silly at times. Just smack-your-buddy-upside-the-head, RRRRRUFF!!-like-Curly Three Stooges-like plain silly. Maybe it's a needed relief from work, or combat, or just plain boredom from an empty house? Fine. Not my thing, necessarily, but I accept that some threads will be places where I and other who felt the same will never post, but I for one will not complain about their existence--but not that that was the issue really in the first place.

No one that I have spoken to for the entire time that this issue had been brewing--at least a month or more--had ever wanted the O&E, or the humor to stop or be "gone"--just for the incessant "yuk yukking" and "post padding" in modeling threads to be curtailed with some respect. Maybe we can get there now, if everyone is willing to respect the wishes of everyone else.? I feel that it was that lack of respect for a simple request that precipitated and caused this whole mess in the first place.

And as far as I'm concerned, its all water under the bridge. Let's learn from this, turn over a new leaf, open a new tab, and get back to modeling.

 

 

And yet we continue to beat a dead horse.  Restoring O&E (which I think it should be), will send us right back to where we were.  Probably not right away but sooner than later.  As much as I have faith in our members (my self included) to behave the reality is a bit different.  I see no other way, and i speak from experience, but this place needs a mod after hours.

my

I didn't know Berny, but please send condolences from the FSM forums. It is indeed a shame that we lost many good and relevant topics and thread due to the loss of the O&Es.

I think the O&E should be restored. Though it can, and has been, a volatile place, there is indeed a need for an outlet for humor, for socializing, for updating everyone on personal events and issue, and without the O&E, that impulse and need is just going to inevitably gravitate to other forums and populate those forums, where many modelers have no interest at all in reading them. And we run the risk of once again confronting the same issue of excessive frivolity and gratuitous post-padding.

The O&E's should be restored. But with the caveat that when Friday afternoon comes, if ANYONE starts any "baiting" threads or posts over the weekend because the moderator is out, they're GONE Monday morning baby, buh-bye. No second chances.These past two weekends' antics should be enough to prove that Friday ain't "free-for-all" day.

I think everyone has had their say and in enough eloquence, god knows, to have beaten an entire herd of Wyld Mustangs to death!

Speaking for myself, as just one of the many people asking for a toning-down of what was seen as the excessive goofiness starting to permeate the forums, I learned how important it is for some people to just be....silly at times. Just smack-your-buddy-upside-the-head, RRRRRUFF!!-like-Curly Three Stooges-like plain silly. Maybe it's a needed relief from work, or combat, or just plain boredom from an empty house? Fine. Not my thing, necessarily, but I accept that some threads will be places where I and other who felt the same will never post, but I for one will not complain about their existence--but not that that was the issue really in the first place.

No one that I have spoken to for the entire time that this issue had been brewing--at least a month or more--had ever wanted the O&E, or the humor to stop or be "gone"--just for the incessant "yuk yukking" and "post padding" in modeling threads to be curtailed with some respect. Maybe we can get there now, if everyone is willing to respect the wishes of everyone else.? I feel that it was that lack of respect for a simple request that precipitated and caused this whole mess in the first place.

And as far as I'm concerned, its all water under the bridge. Let's learn from this, turn over a new leaf, open a new tab, and get back to modeling.

DoogsATX

 

jetmodeler:

 

WOW! I miss four days of being on the forum, log on today and this post is here talking about some members that messed things up for all of us, and the "Odds and Ends" forum section being deleted.

I must have missed A LOT in those four days.

 

 

yes and no...

Wait a minute. That's two posts for Manny.

Thanks for the update Ken. I trust berny will make it until his son arrives. Prayers for he and his family.

I will say that I'm glad to see it go.  I was getting the feeling that the forum, as a whole, was becoming too much like a social networking site were anybody could talk about anything.  Save that for Facebook or something other site like that.

I'll also admit that I got into some "heated" discussions with some of the other members and I had been warned by Aaron.  But, I can say I was warned once.  As in, I didn't need a second warning.

I'm not too hopeful about the future of the forum though.  I have the feeling that the closure of the O&E forum will just invigorate the offenerds to move onto another section of the forum and reek more havoc.

We'll see....

-Jesse

George, that has been tried before. Short of outright banning someone for life, it never works. For some reason, getting a "time-out" on here is considered a Badge of Honor. Much like wise-guys or gang-bangers getting hammered by 'The Man" it is seen as something good. So when their "sentence" is up, they go right back to the same thing, and the wheel turns...

I have been here awhile and have seen numerous warnings, some subtle and others less so. They have all been ignored. Some people have so little regard for the admins here that they will make threads about the warnings and essentially throw it right back into Aaron and Matt's teeth. How long did anyone really think that was going to last?

For you parents, how many times do you keep telling your children to stop doing something before you have to stop talking and start showing you mean business? Same for any of you that have ever been in any kind of supervisor position? You can only threaten so much.

The worst that will happen is that a few people who were only here for the Off-Topic and frivolous posts will lose their reason for being here and move on to greener pastures. You can count those on one hand with a couple fingers left over.

tl;dr version, we brought this on ourselves.

Regards,

Jeff

Ken, Thanks for posting this update, especially in this particular thread. I also Berny could hold death at bay until his son can arrive.

It's important to note that since some people feel they have the freedom to do whatever they want, without regard for the results, one of the results of this weekend's idiocy resulted in the closure of a forum that was giving us updates on the deteriorating condition of one of our most respected members.

Another result is that it appears that there is no longer a means of searching for archived posts. I get nothing but "Resource not found" errors. I hope this can get fixed, so that we can still access Berny's extensive knowledge, which he freely shared here.

Hi Everyone,

I am not sure where to post this now, but I wanted to give everyone an update on Berny.  I talked to his wife and he is still alive, but just barely.  She said he can hardly talk and when he does, it is very hard to understand him.  She thinks he is holding out for his son to arrive tomorrow.  I believe that is true.  He most certainly is a fighter.

Ken

Can't say we weren't warned...........several times!

I got a deer to butcher........later.

Aaron,

 As you state above,the problems were the actions of several members.Why not take action against those and let the rest of have the deleted forum??

Thanks,George

The nuke has popped, all debris have stopped falling, but the fallout is just beginning I suspect....

jetmodeler

WOW! I miss four days of being on the forum, log on today and this post is here talking about some members that messed things up for all of us, and the "Odds and Ends" forum section being deleted.

I must have missed A LOT in those four days.

yes and no...

WOW! I miss four days of being on the forum, log on today and this post is here talking about some members that messed things up for all of us, and the "Odds and Ends" forum section being deleted.

I must have missed A LOT in those four days.

DoogsATX

 

tigerman:

 

So much for the Ode to my cat. Thanks again to everyone who took the time to respond.

What I would have done is remove the offending threads and posted new guidelines for O & E with zero tolerance.

 

 

I meant to get in there and respond but it's kinda hard with no section left...but man, I feel ya. Losing a pet is rough, but at least she had a great, long and happy life. We lost a dog several years ago at a doggy day care (attacked and killed by a larger dog in a staff screw up). She was just two. Don't want to go into it, but that day threw a lot of shrapnel into my wife and I's relationship that I think we're finally overcoming six years later. Obviously all pets should be immortal or give their lives saving us from certain death, but failing that, a healthy, happy life surrounded by a loving family is a pretty great thing. Still - letting them go is awful, and you have my condolences. 

And that's exactly the thing I'm talking about missing now.

Thanks Doogs. I'm very sorry to hear about your dog. That must have been pretty traumatic. 

I still have two others, 16 and 8 years old. I think the 16 year-old will become totally spoiled. Katie used to pick on her all the time. She will  get much more attention now, with Katie's passing. 

Aaron Skinner

With respect to everyone, I tried to create new guidelines for off-topic conversations, which as I have said repeatedly in the past, I thought were just fine, but that quickly went off the rails through the actions of several members. I like learning more about and relating to my fellow modelers about other things. It is an unfortunate outcome and not one that was chosen lightly.

I appreciate all of the concerns and comments. Please feel free to contact me directly if you'd like to discuss this in more detail. You can hit start a conversation, email me directly askinner@finescale.com, or call 262-796-8776 x299.

Regards, Aaron

Aaron, even though your closure of the O&E today more than likely wiped out 2/3rds of my posts, I applaud it. This is not the first time, and quite likely won't be the last time, that O&E has been closed. People just keep on repeating history! I just hope we can earn your trust again, so that it can be re-instated at some point in the near future.

And you're a brave man putting your full email and telephone number on the internet! Lucky for you your local isn't 229!

As someone pointed out earlier, this is their bat, and their ball, and their ball park, and while they might not have a team without "us" as players, I think they could probably recruit some more quite easily from the back benchers.

Bill
Who's hitting the showers...

RIP Odds and Ends forum, you may be gone but you will not forgotten.

Manstein's revenge

 

Reasoned:

 

Guys, it's their bat, their ball and their rules.  All one can do is to decide to play or not.

 

Yep, their stadium, ball and bat...BUT--we're the players and there 'aint no game without US...

 

Part of the problem is, a lot of us were playing the wrong game or rather no game at all. There were a bunch of people hanging out on the 19th Green and not enough people working on their short game...

I think for the betterment of the forum, be it long term or short term, they can afford to trade a few players for others who are more willing to cooperate and not split the locker room with petty arguments. 

With respect to everyone, I tried to create new guidelines for off-topic conversations, which as I have said repeatedly in the past, I thought were just fine, but that quickly went off the rails through the actions of several members. I like learning more about and relating to my fellow modelers about other things. It is an unfortunate outcome and not one that was chosen lightly.

I appreciate all of the concerns and comments. Please feel free to contact me directly if you'd like to discuss this in more detail. You can hit start a conversation, email me directly askinner@finescale.com, or call 262-796-8776 x299.

Regards, Aaron

I'm glad it's gone. I've asked FSM several times over the years to ditch it. Troll magnet, fight club, bar without a bouncer on Saturday nights, pick your metaphor.

I'm a member on other, smaller forums where fighting is UNHEARD OF.

And they have OE places.

Echo139er

Manstein's revenge:

 

Reasoned:

 

Guys, it's their bat, their ball and their rules.  All one can do is to decide to play or not.

 

Yep, their stadium, ball and bat...BUT--we're the players and there 'aint no game without US...

 

 

True, but we will adapt.  We always do.

 Sometimes things need to go bad (or worse) before they get better. Sometimes... Let's just hope this is one of them.

Manstein's revenge

 

Reasoned:

 

Guys, it's their bat, their ball and their rules.  All one can do is to decide to play or not.

 

Yep, their stadium, ball and bat...BUT--we're the players and there 'aint no game without US...

 

True, but we will adapt.  We always do.

 Sometimes things need to go bad (or worse) before they get better. Sometimes... Let's just hope this is one of them.

tigerman

So much for the Ode to my cat. Thanks again to everyone who took the time to respond.

What I would have done is remove the offending threads and posted new guidelines for O & E with zero tolerance.

I meant to get in there and respond but it's kinda hard with no section left...but man, I feel ya. Losing a pet is rough, but at least she had a great, long and happy life. We lost a dog several years ago at a doggy day care (attacked and killed by a larger dog in a staff screw up). She was just two. Don't want to go into it, but that day threw a lot of shrapnel into my wife and I's relationship that I think we're finally overcoming six years later. Obviously all pets should be immortal or give their lives saving us from certain death, but failing that, a healthy, happy life surrounded by a loving family is a pretty great thing. Still - letting them go is awful, and you have my condolences. 

And that's exactly the thing I'm talking about missing now.