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Totally Confused about Vietnam War

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  • Member since
    June 2012
Posted by ice_spy on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 8:17 PM

group build please.!!  I have regained my interest in modeling through a recent interest in learning all i can about the war. 

  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Right Side of a Left State
Posted by Shellback on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 7:08 PM

What ? I didnt know there was anything about Vietnam at a college .......................Hmm

Moderator
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: USA
Posted by Matthew Usher on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 4:20 PM

Pick up a copy of "Where the Domino Fell" by Olson and Roberts. It's a good overall history of US involvement in Vietnam from 1945 to the 1990s. There's a new (expensive) edition out, but earlier editions are available inexpensively in paperback. Maybe check a good used and/or college bookstore.

Matt Usher @ FSM

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, July 20, 2012 5:29 PM

Shell, no worries my friend. It is still aways out in the future, and it will be another long term GB so time is on our side... except for the aging and life thing of course...Wink

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Right Side of a Left State
Posted by Shellback on Friday, July 20, 2012 5:08 PM

Pawel i forgot to tell you that i took a look at your Vietnam web site the other day and its a good looking site ! I was surprised to see the interest in that conflict .

  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Right Side of a Left State
Posted by Shellback on Friday, July 20, 2012 5:05 PM

Stik , i'm sorry man , but i dont want to say yes and then back like i did before . i felt bad for doing that . I really appreciate you offering to start a vietnam war g.b. my friend .

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, July 20, 2012 4:52 PM

Especially at the speed I build these days...Wink

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Friday, July 20, 2012 3:45 PM

No sweat. A modeller just has to be patient!

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, July 20, 2012 3:30 PM

Ok Pawel. I know that I  am not planning to start it until after my Korean War GB ends next summer. I will put out the appropriate feelers when the date draws near

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Friday, July 20, 2012 3:19 PM

I'm in! I even have a web page devoted to Vietnam War!

Have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, July 20, 2012 1:21 PM

So who here is up for a Vietnam Group Build in the future?Wink

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Right Side of a Left State
Posted by Shellback on Thursday, July 19, 2012 6:54 PM

Stik and old ordie .......well said .......with your last post you have made me feel much better about being here ! Like old ordie when i returned i to the states via S.F. (hippy central )(on a ship to Hunters point) the anamosity towards servicemen in that town was apparent . Not as bad as it would get later . I have deep feelings from those times and i always will . Amazing how this country has made such an about face towards our servicemen .

Good to be here with some fellow servicemen and vets !

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • From: Milford, Ohio
Posted by Old Ordie on Thursday, July 19, 2012 4:30 PM

I like modelling because it allows me to connect with the men and women who have made history, for better or worse.  People make history, not machines, but modelling their machines brings me a tiny bit closer to them.  It's the history ...

In June, 1971, I took my one-and-only cat shot, in a C-2, off the Kitty Hawk on Yankee Station.  I was the better part of one line period from completeing the entire cruise, but my Exchange privileges were set to expire in a week, so they had to send me away.  I spent three of what rank among the truly best days of my life in the P.I., at Clark AFB (which was a beautiful place), off the duty radar, waiting for transit stateside.  To make a long story a little shorter, on arriving in the States, I took a bus from Travis to San Francisco International, where I caught a PSA jet to San Diego.  When I got to the airport, I ducked in the first restroom I came to, went into a stall and changed out of my uniform into a set of civies I'd had on the ship, shoes and all.  It was the very first opportunity I'd had to do so after re-entering the civilian world.

I did not do this because I was ashamed of my uniform, or of anything I had done, because I wasn't - I did it because, at that time, groups of people sometimes roamed the airports of our country, throwing blood, ***, urine and garbage on men in uniform as they came upon them, following them and chanting insults at them ('baby killer' was a favorite).  Especially in SF.  I just wanted to sit in the lounge, have a drink and wait for my flight home to San Diego.  I didn't want to have to put up with those people, not that day.

In college afterwards, I learned that it was simply best not to mention being a vet at school, or even in social situations.  There was a serious political/cultural divide.  Literally half of everybody, in those days, was strongly opposed the war.  Some, especially at school (but everywhere/anywhere, really),  felt compelled to take their anger over the issue out on vets - because we were available, I guess - usually by way of a highly-charged, personal verbal assault, right out in public.  Few people would take your part in those days, and many simply didn't want to know you if they found out you were a 'Nam vet.  I kid you not.  I just wanted to go to school and recreate, like a normal college kid.  So, mum's the word (though I never denied it, if asked, just never offered it).  As it turned out, my friends in college were all ex-GI's ...

Over the years, as I established and reared a family, it became less and less socially acceptable to verbally assault 'Nam vets.  Even the stereotypical homicidal-maniac 'Nam vet villian, so common in the 70's and early '80's on TV and in the movies, disappeared from our culture.  The past twenty years or so, seeing the American people receive their Dessert Storm,  Afghanistan/Iraq vets back with the honor and respect they deserve has pleased me greatly - more than I can say - and I thought we were past all that.

I am proud of my brother 'Nam vets, all of them, not only because they are mine, but because they served their country faithfully through extraordinarily difficult circumstances.

I, for one, am simply not going to keep it to myself anymore.  When it comes up, it comes up.  I had thought this forum a place where I could do that, where there might even be some mild interest in it, besides trading modelling knowlege and technique (absorbing it, really, on my part).  I still think it so, mostly.

Doug,

My son's middle name was given after his uncle Paul, who was killed in action in Vietnam.  He was in the 101st AB, same as your cousin.  The helicopter he was riding in was shot down.  It burned.  I  lost relatives, friends, shipmates, drinking buddies, neighbors, acquaintances, HS team mates, and on and on ...  to the war Vietnam.  None of them would have wanted me to suffer through the rest of my life for it, or hold it against anyone else.

I may be 'frivilous' when talking about liberty in the P.I., but never about war.

Further, please understand that I was not drafted into it - I enlisted.  Serving was a privilege, and I knew it (though, at the time, I didn't realize just how much of a privilege it truly was).  I served with WWII vets and Korea vets, side-by-side, day-in and day-out.  That is special to me now in a way I can't describe.  Besides that, I got to man a flight deck in combat, and it was the grandest adventure of my life.

If I may (hopefully) offer some constructive advice:  I skip a thread item from time-to-time on this forum because I can tell from the title that it wouldn't interest me.  I'd do so, also, if I thought - from the title of the thread - that a subject might cause me an adverse emotional reaction.

Peace.

Mark

Flight deck:  Hasegawa 1:48 P-40E; Tamiya 1:48 A6M2 N Type 2 ('Rufe')

Elevators:  Airfix 1:72 Grumman Duck; AM 1:72 F-4J

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: Democratic Peoples Republic of Illinois
Posted by Hercmech on Thursday, July 19, 2012 4:16 PM

You said that much better I did.


13151015

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, July 19, 2012 3:18 PM

Shellback

He served , he was my brother . This is a model building forum .....true . But i would hope that this hobby would bring us together to discuss  more than just how to glue and paint plastic.

Your service brings us first hand knowledge on how to model some particular items: yours from time at sea on a carrier at a particular place and a particular time in history; Redleg, Heavy Arty and Hans on  many years in Field Artillery; Rob for a career in Armor, the late Berny for his superb knowledge of the F-4 Phantom, Tarn Ship for more sea borne air wing experience; Bish for a UK military career perspective across the globe in the service of the Queen (sounds cool doesn't it?); BBIII, GregBear, and Dattilio for the Marine Corps knowledge... and many others than I can list easily off the top of my head here. That firsthand knowledge makes for better and more accurate historical models for those here who care to listen and use that knowledge... and also some great stories gained in the acquisition of that knowledge. It was not learned by osmosis....Toast Keep up the fire boys Wink 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Kingsport, TN.
Posted by 01JeepXJ on Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:29 AM

Here's some modeling input-I think all of us have Poloraid or 35mm pics of aircraft/vehicles we saw in all our deployments.

I am sorry for ANY loss of life in any conflict BUT wars aren't fought by elderly politicians. It's always the youth that are lost. Most vets became vets ot the age of 18 or so. We didn't become vets at retirement age.

I lost 2 close friends/highschool classmates  in RVN doing their part to win the hearts & minds. Their names are on the wall.

My BFF was in the 101st. Wounded 3 times, since has had 3 knee replacements  due to THAT action! We do vent to each other time to time. I guess it's just a "brother" thing.

As for the Iraq/Afghanistan returnees-I have seen more & strange wounds/disabilities from these vets than from us RVN vets. IED's I guess. I work with some of these fine young men. They're like us old guys-did what they had to do,walk tall.

Sorry if my rant took up so much space.

Be safe my brothers

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and only annoys the pig.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:38 PM

I suspect that our experiences in Iraq were vastly different. I was there in '05 when the insurgency in Anbar was really amping up.

Yupper, they were.. I was there at the beginning, another "Desert Storm"-type fight, with force-on-force, set-piece battles... There were some guerilla-types involved, rather than a full-blown insurgency, it was more a re-enforcing of regulars by militia-types, with the Fedayeen Saddam the most heavily involved.. They didn't give us much trouble in the "tooth", but raised hell with the "tail", (where I was)...  Still, we managed to keep the bassiges off us and roll 'em up for the most part, although they gave us a real headache and we had to stop and really root 'em out for a couple weeks... Lost a few folks during that time, but we gave more than we got, for damn-sure.. Until they turnd sewer-rat and holed up in the villages and especially up in the cities like Tikrit after we took Baghdad...

By the time I left, it seemed we'd pretty much secured the AO, although there was definate insurgency brewing up fast by the end of May up north in the Sunni Triangle..  I got hit in May and sent  to Germany before the entire country blew up...  I didn't deploy again, and was medically retired in '06 after 29 and a half years..

But I was getting concerened with the "Firebase mentality" that was getting all too prevailent with FOBs popping up everywhere...

  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Right Side of a Left State
Posted by Shellback on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:19 PM

He served , he was my brother . This is a model building forum .....true . But i would hope that this hobby would bring us together to discuss  more than just how to glue and paint plastic.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 9:56 PM

And this thread can easily be brought back to a modeling theme. The Vietnam War is a fantastic area to model covering the gamut of subjects from WWII retreads such as the C-47 and B-26 to the latest Atomic/Space age technology such as USS Enterprise or the SR-71. But all there to support the oldest weapon of all, the guy on the ground. All available in various modeling subjects representing both military sides.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 9:46 PM

tankboy51

 If you vets want to share stories fine, take it to another forum. This is not the place and it is well off the topic

No it is not out of place, nor is it entirely off topic. True, this is a modeling forum, a large portion of which is military in focus. Sometimes, it is important to remember the people behind those inanimate objects that we build and the efforts and sacrifices they make. This topic started off with a question about the nature of the war in Vietnam. These stories that vets of that war are sharing give a flavor to the nature of that conflict.

As others have said, I am sorry for your families loss and I honor your cousins sacrifice. But no one in this conversation is making the war in Vietnam seem frivolous.

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: Democratic Peoples Republic of Illinois
Posted by Hercmech on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 9:43 PM

Dadgum Doug...pretty harsh there... Most of us talk about military subjects all the time relating to builds.

I for one don't talk about my 20+ years of military service much, but hearing what these guys have to say is not only history, but lends credibility to questions they may answer in relation to models.

Just imagine if we had Heinz Barr or Eric Hartman on here saying..."yeah my aircraft had purple dodadds on it, back during the 1942 campaign"  I doubt one person would say booo to that.

And it was not off topic at all as the OP asked for some history about Vietnam...not how to build a model about it.


13151015

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Denver
Posted by tankboy51 on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 9:22 PM

He was my cousin, not my brother.   I believe that this forum is for modeling discussions.  As a non vet myself, at that point in the discussion, anyone else commenting is pretty much out of it.  If you vets want to share stories fine, take it to another forum. This is not the place and it is well off the topic

I appreciate your service in any case.  My family has had many members who served in various branches though out our nations history.  My brother was a Capt. in the Air Force at the end of the conflict.   Where did I put a derogatory label on anyone?  If I implied any negative comments it was to the leaders who got us into this and kept us there.

I guess that not all I had to say about it.

Doug

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 9:09 PM

And among today's vets as well. At work a couple weeks ago I was babysitting a bad guy at the hospital. One of the ER personnel and I vaguely recognized one another and started talking. Turns out that we had served together some 15 years before before he moved on to another unit. We spoke of our overseas times after and people we knew. As soon as the shared connection was made, I found an old brother right there.

Nothing frivlous at all. Just a bond that is hard to explain.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Right Side of a Left State
Posted by Shellback on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:38 PM

Frivolity ? Yes , people die in wars . You lost your brother and thats sad . But to call the exchange of stories between vietnam vets "frevolity" is done with little understanding of the comradery that is felt amongst us vets . Understand that we the vets are not the ones you should put derogatory labels on ! Understand that it was those leaders in Washington D.C. that got us involved and then ran the whole mess from D.C. . We vets joined or were drafted . We did our duty . We have stories to share . It helps us vets to know that there are others who share our experiences . Out of respect for your brother i do feel humbled for your loss .

Carl

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • From: Milford, Ohio
Posted by Old Ordie on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:10 PM

Doug,

I am truly sorry for your loss.  I hope you and your family find peace about it.

Mark

Flight deck:  Hasegawa 1:48 P-40E; Tamiya 1:48 A6M2 N Type 2 ('Rufe')

Elevators:  Airfix 1:72 Grumman Duck; AM 1:72 F-4J

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Denver
Posted by tankboy51 on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 5:27 PM

One more thing, I do not hate the VC or any of the Vietnamese people, they were fighting foreign control of their nation.  It needed to be unified.  They were pawns to the politicians on both sides.

That's all  I have to say about that.

Doug

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Denver
Posted by tankboy51 on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 5:17 PM

Gee whiz, I sure wish I could join in in all the frivolity about the VietNam  war.  However, in 1970, my cousin was killed over there.   He was 19 years old.  He was in the 101st , and was killed  within his first two weeks over there.  I, myself, was on the verge of being drafted.  At that point my whole family thought that we had given that worthless cause all it needed.  I stayed out by keeping by student deferment up.

BTW the military lied for 2 months about how he was murdered, yes, he was shot in his sleep on an overnight patrol, when someone fell asleep on watch.  They were all killed.  It was only when other men caught the VC who killed them that they got the story.  They had their weapons on them.

The whole conflict was one mess, we shouldn't have been there.

I'm going to stop now, the conflict still hurts to talk about in the abstraction.

Eddie was a neat guy and he got me really really interested in modeling.

Doug

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: Democratic Peoples Republic of Illinois
Posted by Hercmech on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:26 PM

You guys are cracking me up...I have heard my Dad tell the same stories for years about his time on the Saratoga and his port calls.  Keep it up...brings back lots of warm memories.


13151015

  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Right Side of a Left State
Posted by Shellback on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:16 PM

Good stories guys . You realize this is actually real history we are talking about . Our history of a war that our nation was ashamed of ! I'm not ashamed of it ! Ok , ok, i digress .

Subic bay and the *** river ........one thing aout that *** river you always knew where you were ....the smell was unforgettable ! I never tossed coins in it ............maybe put some other stuff in it ? There were so many binjo ditches around that place i dont know how i managed not to fall into more than the one that i found with my clean liberty whites uniform one night ! I had to throw it away ......yuck ! OMG what a *** hole that place was ! OMG i had some good times there !

Take care Bros . !

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • From: Milford, Ohio
Posted by Old Ordie on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 1:59 PM

01JeepXJ

... As was said, good times,bad times but it was OUR times...

Yes

Flight deck:  Hasegawa 1:48 P-40E; Tamiya 1:48 A6M2 N Type 2 ('Rufe')

Elevators:  Airfix 1:72 Grumman Duck; AM 1:72 F-4J

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