Totally Confused about Vietnam War

Thank you for the information. My friends Gary and Bob were both army infantry, Bob spent his time carrying the big gun.

Gary suffers from exposure to Agent Orange.

My friend Jim was an airman.

My friend Keith was a helicopter pilot.

I had an Academy CH-46 but I gave it to Fermis because it's 1/48. It was a gift from Namrednef.

IF I built a Vietnam model, it'd no doubt be a fast mover. Considering a TF-100.

bondoman

Ignorant question, but what is a trim vane and why is it called that? Seems unique to the -113?

I get where it is from studying the photos- looks like the big rectangular thing on the front.

EDIT: ok a little Wiki work and it has to do with running in deep water, kind of like a dam. But then the article mentions "swimming". No way this thing could actually float, right?

Here's a video of someone actally swimming the 113 (disregard the person posting the video trying to force the name "Gavin" on the 113).

Yes, you can build a standard Academy M113A1/A2 (less interior) right out of the AFV Club FSV box. The only things it is missing would be regular version decals and AFV Club replaced the poor Academy kit tracks with their superior individual link tracks. The kit gives you a bunch of stuff for the parts box.

The all new F sprue adds the side floatation extensions (just styrofoam filled sheet metal), new roof and many detail parts like the rear caged turn signals. I don't remember if there were front caged turn signals or not.

You get the Scorpion turret and two suspension sprues (just to take a couple turret pieces off the suspension sprue). The rest of the pieces go into the parts box.

There isn't a canvas cover for the main gun tube. The one I built, I just went with the straight metal barrel. If I ever get around to building my second kit I'd add it with tissue paper.

I don't know about Australian M113 based vehicles, but on US vehicles, there aren't trays for the 5 gallon cans. It's just a little metal lip that catches the bottom edge of the metal 5 gallon can and the can is strapped horizontally. The tray is probably a better system because newer plastic 5 gallon cans don't have a lip to catch and are always coming loose.

It's a cool little kit, I'd have grabbed it even without the metal gun tube. The 76mm would be too easy to scratchbuild with styrene tubing or find a resin or an aluminum AM barrel.

When was the Scorpion turreted version in use?

My first cousin was in Vietnam around 1969 and commanded a 113.  I believe he told me that part was there to help them ford streams.  He added that, of course, it didn't work as planned, lol.

Gary

Ignorant question, but what is a trim vane and why is it called that? Seems unique to the -113?

I get where it is from studying the photos- looks like the big rectangular thing on the front.

EDIT: ok a little Wiki work and it has to do with running in deep water, kind of like a dam. But then the article mentions "swimming". No way this thing could actually float, right?

Rob, I wanted the AFV Club kit, but could never find it here (AFV Club are kinda scarce here in Aus). The Scorpion turret looks a whole lot meaner than the Saladin turret.

The one time I found the kit in a shop, the (metal) gun barrel was missing from the kit, so I didn't buy it. Being based on the Academy M113A1 kit, I am guessing it would have been a little more accurate, but I have never had a good look at the kit. IIRC, the AFV Club kit had indy-link tracks, so that would have been a plus.

If I recall correctly, after the FSV's were upgraded with the Scorpion turrets, they were redesignated "MRV"s (Medium Reconnaissance Vehicle/s). They also differ in having the bulged side extensions (flotation tanks?) and "wedged" trim vane compared to the original FSV.

Very nice, what are your thoughts on the AFV Club (reboxed Academy M113A1/A2 kit) FSV? I thought overall the fit wasn't as great as the Tamiya kit, but I don't know a lot about the vehicle to be able to judge it on accuracy.

stikpusher

Phil, what mods and additions does the FSV need?

I'll say that I didn't want to attempt to fully accurise the kit, and my mods were mostly eyeballed, not measured. Tamiya based the kit on their earlier "straight" M113 and the FSV is based on an M113A1, so there are a couple of visible M113A1 mods like the lip extension on the trim vane and the external fire extinguisher box. In addition, the FSV also has a hinged, fold-down extension on the trim vane. Note that this is slightly shorter at the left end to clear the headlight cluster.

Note the turn-signal indicators, which I believe were required for driving on domestic (Australian) roads.

As it stands, the kit turret also needs an antenna base on the right hand side - the kit only provides one for the left side but this is easy enough to duplicate. Because I left the skirts off, I added the bolt-holes and the under-sponson armour using plastic card.

At the back end, I extended the bilge-pump outlet, which is just a nub in the kit, added trays and straps for the jerry cans and added the catch/release for the ramp door (inside the loop of the tow cable in this pic.

I really like the weathering and faded paint look. Very nice work on M113 FSV

Phil, what mods and additions does the FSV need?

stikpusher

I have a few Vietnam subjects in the works right now... a 1/48 RF-4C, a 1/35 Light Seal Support Craft, a 1/300 USS Ramsey FFG, a 1/35 Aussie M113 FSV...

The M113 FSV is a nice little kit. There's a few simple mods/additions which can be done to make it a little more accurate, but it comes up nicely.

Just be warned that Academy decals are very hit and miss.... if there is a company that I highly recommend aftermarket decals, "just in case", for their kits it will be Academy. I am hoping that either Trumpeters or Eduards upcoming MiG-21-F13 kits, the first version used by the VPAF, will have those markings. The F-13 was the early hot rod version of the -21 like this one that the USAF "acquired".

Cool.  I can't find it at my favorite OHS, but now I know what to keep my eyes open for ...  thanks!

Academy's original 1/48 MiG-21PF comes with VPAF markings.

stikpusher

Get the Hobbyboss MiG-17...

Yeah, the Hobbyboss Mig-17F Fresco D is the kit I've been eyeing.  It's the only 1:48 I've found that comes with the VPAF markings.  I'd like to do a 1:48 Mig-21 in VPAF markings also, but can't find one with the right decals.  I haven't really looked for VPAF AM decals for one yet, though.

Get the Hobbyboss MiG-17...

Let's see, 'Nam kits in the stash ... All 1:48, unless otherwise noted:  Tamiya Skyraider, Revell F-8, Italeri A-4 E/F/G, Revell A-6, Hobby Boss A-7A, Hasegawa F-4J (Showtime 100), Revell/Monogram F-4J (Mig Ace), and holding place for (I hope) future acquisitions:  1:72 AM F-4J, and 1:72 Hasegawa F-4B.  Besides more Spooks, I'm planning to add a Mig-17 in VPAF markings, and a C-2 Greyhound, (and an E-2, and an RA-5, and a S2F, and ... you get the picture ).

Also, I have to count my finished 1:800 USS Kitty Hawk.  I started off with the intent of modelling mostly US Navy and IJN WWII aircraft, which subjects fill out most of the rest of my stash (and comprise the better part of it).  I should have seen the Vietnam kits coming from day one ...

Yes, my first modern tank kit as an adult was the old Tamiya M60A1. The PX had stacks of those kits. But I did modify mine a bit in accordance with an IPMS Quarterly article from about 1978 or so.  And painted it in a MERDC camo scheme using the Pactra 'namels that the PX sold, Dark Olive Drab in place of Forest Green and Flat Green in place of Light Green for the Verdant scheme that most of our tanks had in 1984 at Ft Polk...

And this thread has inspired me to start another Vietnam subject, the Revellogram 1/48 F-100D which I will be doing in an Aluminum Lacquered 1965 scheme out of Tan Son Nhut.

As a child, the Vietnam War did not effect me. My parents were recent immigrants from Holland and I had no relatives who were US citizens during the war (beyond my parents and siblings). By the time of the US withdrawal, I was 8 years old (about the same age as my youngest son). I assume I was probably as clueless about the Vietnam War as he is about the current wars, and he has a brother who served in A-stan.

As a modeler, one of my earliest kits was the Monogram M48 Patton tank kit. I remember the Love Bug markings. As a young adult, current armor was my draw and the current armor of the day was Vietnam era tanks and APCs.

My first high quality armor kits had to have been the Tamiya M48A3 and M113 APC built during the early 1980s. By 1983, my main interest turned towards building armor that I had used during my budding military career. By default, that armor was Vietnam era, but many received modern camouflage paint schemes I slapped on right over the original OD green and white star finish. I didn't worry about the differences between versions as a modeler back then; an M48 was an M48 and an M113 was an M113. But in actuality, both the M48A3 and M113 were earlier versions than the M48A5 and M113A2 I crewed.

I still have an old Monogram Patton tank that received a camouflage paint scheme over the original finish. Of course, that kit wasn't painted originally. I applied the white stars over the bare olive plastic with little more than silver and black "detail" paintings. I received a paint job that was supposed to represent my M48A5 I rode in 1985.

It's very intersting to how nearly 50 years after it began, this is still a very emotional subject... but as said before a very rich modeling subject area

I have a few Vietnam subjects in the works right now... a 1/48 RF-4C, a 1/35 Light Seal Support Craft, a 1/300 USS Ramsey FFG, a 1/35 Aussie M113 FSV...

Tim , i have no more to add ...........if i did i might go off on a rant and break the rules . I pushed the envelope a couple of times already but i see my post are still up so i guess i squeaked by ,I dont know how to bring this thread around to talking about models since the original poster said he was confused and seemed to want some answers .

Maybe a new thread about models of the Nam era is needed .

I'm done here , Its been interesting reading for me . I've learned something about the feelings that are still out there about that war and how it has and still does affect us .

Thanks for all of the info on the books also .

Later bros.

willieandjoe

Yes, strange thing is that the draft was probably the fairest thing that could have happened, which is why nobody liked it. I drew a 82 my first year of eligibility, but it was 1974 and nobody was being drafted. Certainly at that point I was happy about that.

I didn't ever seek a deferment, but I did manage to get reclassified 1AO, which was a non combat status whatever that means, on religious grounds (I'm a pacifist in faith).

 

The Feb 1972 lottery (men born in 1953) was the last one where anybody was actually called.  By that time student deferments had  been discontinued, but with the draw down not nearly as many guys got called (plus it depended on your local draft board). 

I was one of the oddballs at the time because while other guys were sweating out the lottery,  I volunteered and was accepted to Navy Aviation Officer Candidate School during my junior year in college.

After I failed a subsequent flight physical  at Pennsacola and got a release from my commitment, the Navy reclassified me as 4-F with the draft board, even though I would have been able to pass the Army physical.  They said it was their way of thanking me for volunteering while the war was still on.

Mark

Hello,

I want to thank everyone who has participated in the thread so far. As we know, Vietnam can be a difficult subject. For the most part, the conversation here has been moderate and civil. However, there have been a couple of politically charged statements, and I want to remind everyone that politics are off-limits. As Aaron posted in the Forum Rules, political commentary will get you banned.

Also, swearing is not tolerated, no matter how innocent it may seem. Don't use symbols to try to bypass the nannybot.

Finally, it seems that Chrisk-k's initial question has been answered. Let's steer the thread back toward modeling and away from the atmosphere and philosophy surrounding Vietnam.

Thanks,

TK

Shell, one more book that I recommend is Unheralded Victory, by Mark Woodruff- a former Marine and Vietnam Vet. I read it while prepping to go overseas in late 2004. I think you may find it an enlightening read.

Know i've got a good list of books to read  . If i read enough of them i might understand what the Vietnam war was all about .Being a vet never gave me any answers . As far as taking ground from the enemy , securing it , building a fire base , suffering losses ...............only to eventually relinquish the hard won soil back to the enemy .................i just never figured that one out . We would fire round after round into the jungle , only to find some blown up bags of rice  . A cruiser and its crew used to blow up stashes of rice ? Those were the missions that made me wonder what we were accomplishing . Other missions were much more satisfieing , like blasting out an L.Z. into the jungle so that Marines could be evacuated . After that one we went back to Yokosuka , Japan to have the barrels on the tripple 6" replaced . We had been firing round after round for a couple of hrs to secure the perimeter around those Marines . Heard of danger close ? That was a most satisfieing accomplishment since i was a part of the gun fire team .

When i came home and found a 8 to 5 job i turned my back on that war . Being a Nam vet wasnt something i denied or was ashamed of . But i didnt talk about it .Even a good friend of mine that served over there after being drafted into the Army woudnt easily talk about his experiences with me . Only twice did he loosen up (with the help of many a beer ) and bring up a couple of his battle experiences , some that haunted him .  

Ok ..............

USS Oklahoma City on the cover of life magazine . Note the beautiful  sand beaches .

Shellback

What ? I didnt know there was anything about Vietnam at a college .......................

I guess that would depend on when and where you went to college. I went to college from 1982-1986 on Long Island, NY. One of the history classes I took was on the Vietnam War. Among the things we studied was PBS' Vietnam: A Television History and Accuracy in Media's Television's Vietnam (basically their response to the PBS series narrated by Charlton Heston).

Vietnam War movies were "in" at the time with Uncommon Valor, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket, First Blood, Missing in Action coming out during this time.

I do not know how long they offered this course. The semester I took it, one of the ROTC instructors was a Vietnam vet and audited the course. He enjoyed it.

I've had very good experiences with Vietnam vets. The man who taught me how to drive an M48 tank was the last Spec 5 I ever saw. My platoon sergeant in Germany was a Vietnam vet (he eventually became the HQs Company first sergeant when I became the HQs Company XO).

The last Vietnam vet I remember serving with was GEN Eric Shinseki when he was a major general and commander of the First Cavalry Division when I was a tank company commander and later a HQs company commander. This would have been 1994-95 time frame.

on the topic of good books that give an insite to the op. here is a list of some good reading material.

Fire support base vietnam.

The patrol of coral.

they shown the fspb's were set up in a know enemy location, mostly enemy logisitc areas and would provide long range fire support for daily patrols out of the base. At night the enemy would try to over run and attack these bases but having so much fire power with air support on call the enemy would suffer many loses. often not being able to do correct body counts as the enemy would carry their wounded and dead away.  Unfortunatly these bases like the taking of hill 937, after time were packed up and abandoned so the enemy would walk right back into the area. It was a war that was measured by body count for the first time in any war.

Some other good books i have read are:-

Shadows on the wall. ( special forces)

The tiger man of Vietnam. ( special forces capt. Barry P.)

The killing zone. (g.i.s on patrol)

If i die in a combat zone. (g.i.s on patrol)

The tunnels of Cu Chi. (good enemy pov)

The pollitics of agent orange.

Where they lay. (us dig teams searching for mia pilots)

The air war over vietnam.( great referance pics)

That sounds like a good read Ordie . I'll look see if my local library can get it .

I imagine that this is an eye-opening discussion for some.  It is for me, too, in some ways.  Many books have been suggested, and I will be reading at least a few of them.  I suggest, also, Homecoming:  When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam,  by Bob Greene, to round-out the topic.

So the dispute over the Vietnam war continues i see . Brings back memories of the arguments i heard about that war already . Still makes me slightly sick to read some of the comments that are made about that war  . Some able bodied male u.s. citizens were able to avoid the war , others of us didnt have a choice . Like i said before ..."Maybe it was a bad war , maybe it was a good war , either way it was still our war !