Totally Confused about Vietnam War

Ken- that's the problem with this subject, but it sounds to me like you want it both ways. If you are going to throw it up there that CBS helped us lose the war, but claim that's not a political position, then the obvious conclusion is that they hit on some truth.

bondoman

Son Of Medicine Man

But because of Walter Cronkite's coverage it helped turned Americans view on the war to the negative.  And without the public's support, that is when the North Vietnamese won.

Ken

Chronkite was right and that's the bitter pill. He was and is as fine a journalist as there can be. CBS had maintained a policy of basically repeating what the military told them, until Tet. At that point they felt lied to, and saw the whole enterprise for what it was. It wasn't Chronkite but the senior editorial staff that decided to call the hand.

It's hard to know what the VC plan was as the records don't exist in much form. But the NV did keep records as any good post-colonial organization does, and they felt that by capitalizing on anti-war sentiment in the US and abandoning a conventional war that they could not win, they would create havoc in the South.

It's interesting to read that pilots returning from sorties up North were dismayed to see all of the burning cities to the South as they flew back to their bases. This relates directly to the confusion alluded to by the original poster- conditions very similar to why we can never "win" in Afghanistan.

Ken- that's a good list. The one thing I couldn't find were Skyhawks, but I probably missed them.

Also, I am planning to model the H-21C Chocktaw, UH-34 Shawnee and the SP-5 Marlin. Did not see those.

I will not get into an argument about whether Cronkite was right or not on this forum, it is not the place.

As far as the other aircraft you mentioned, you did not pay close enough attention to my post.  I listed aircraft used by the USAF, not the other branches of service.  That would be another list at least twice as long.

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

But because of Walter Cronkite's coverage it helped turned Americans view on the war to the negative.  And without the public's support, that is when the North Vietnamese won.

Ken

It's hard to know what the VC plan was as the records don't exist in much form. But the NV did keep records as any good post-colonial organization does, and they felt that by capitalizing on anti-war sentiment in the US and abandoning a conventional war that they could not win, they would create havoc in the South.

It's interesting to read that pilots returning from sorties up North were dismayed to see all of the burning cities to the South as they flew back to their bases. This relates directly to the confusion alluded to by the original poster- conditions very similar to why we can never "win" in Afghanistan.

Ken- that's a good list. The one thing I couldn't find were Skyhawks, but I probably missed them.

Also, I am planning to model the H-21C Shawnee, UH-34 Chocktaw and the SP-5 Marlin. Did not see those.

Stik , i googled that and it looks real interesting , thanks .

Yes, the communists showed their colors regarding those who served the RVN government and their families as far back as during the "advisory" phase of the war. When they would overrun Government camps at places like Binh Gia where the families of the defenders were slaughtered by the VC. That was part of their doctrine.

Shell, another good book about the end of that war is "The Last Battle" which is about the seizure of the SS Mayaguez and the subsequent operations to take back the ship and free its crew.

Shellback

Ok guys i just read "Last Men Out " by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin , about the Marines that evacuated the US embassy in Saigon and how they were overwhelmed by all of the South Vietnamese they tried to evacuate on short notice . They were dismayed by how many Vietnamese , those that had helped us , where left behind because the politicians drug there feet on starting the evacuation .Many of those left behind were tortured and executed . I dont want to start another flame here . Fact is though our politicians back in D.C. micro managed that war and lost it from their comfortable offices in Washington D.C. ! Ken , i agree with your signature statement and Stik already knows where i stand on that war .

 

Yes, and the sad fact is that there was already an indication of what was going to happen from the experience learned from Tet.  Hue was a big slaughter by the Vietcong of anyone they considered to be "enemies" of the new government.

Ken

Ok guys i just read "Last Men Out " by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin , about the Marines that evacuated the US embassy in Saigon and how they were overwhelmed by all of the South Vietnamese they tried to evacuate on short notice . They were dismayed by how many Vietnamese , those that had helped us , where left behind because the politicians drug there feet on starting the evacuation .Many of those left behind were tortured and executed . I dont want to start another flame here . Fact is though our politicians back in D.C. micro managed that war and lost it from their comfortable offices in Washington D.C. ! Ken , i agree with your signature statement and Stik already knows where i stand on that war . Oh yes i'm proud of son . He actually volunteered to go over there ....and for a year on top of that !

stikpusher

Son Of Medicine Man

I'm sorry, did I reference the wrong set? I have so many I may have. I thought this one was the right one.  Maybe the one I was thinking of was "Vietnam - A Television History".  It was also a box set that originally came out on VHS then later on DVD.  Same situation, the DVD is missing some chapters not included on the VHS set.

Here is a suggestion, pick an area of that war that you are well read up on, say Tet, or Linebacker, or whatever. Then watch an episode that covers that area and decide for yourself if there is bias.

Well, from your example, lets take Tet.  In Tet, they explain how we actually did defeat the Vietcong and they basically became an non functional force.  But because of Walter Cronkite's coverage it helped turned Americans view on the war to the negative.  And without the public's support, that is when the North Vietnamese won.

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

I'm sorry, did I reference the wrong set? I have so many I may have. I thought this one was the right one.  Maybe the one I was thinking of was "Vietnam - A Television History".  It was also a box set that originally came out on VHS then later on DVD.  Same situation, the DVD is missing some chapters not included on the VHS set.

Here is a suggestion, pick an area of that war that you are well read up on, say Tet, or Linebacker, or whatever. Then watch an episode that covers that area and decide for yourself if there is bias.

stikpusher

I have seen both series. One was put out by PBS, and one by the CBC, IIRC. And both tend to use the same footage, interview many of the same people, and present very similar outlooks. One is more biased than the other in my view but I can not recall which offhand. I have not seen either in years. I Know that my viewpoint is certainly skewered by the Vietnam Vets that I have met or served with. And being the types of soldiers that they were, either draftees, or volunteers, career or in and out, their firsthand perspectives spoken soldier to soldier were often quite different than what you see on these shows. They inspired a hunger in me to do lots of reading on the war. But then again I always had an interest to read on it as an adolescent immediatly after the war ended and the Vietnamese refugees arrived locally inlarge numbers here in So Cal. I remember back then reading SLA Marshall's Three Battles, probably the first official Army sanctioned Historical work written on Vietnam, done in the same manner as his Night Drop or Pork Chop Hill.

Okay, I doubled checked and the "10,000 Day War" version is the one you want.  The "Television History" version is the PBS version which is biased against our involvment in the war.  The "Vietnam - The 10,000 Day War" is not.  It is purely factual, and gives a good honest perspective.

Ken

I have seen both series. One was put out by PBS, and one by the CBC, IIRC. And both tend to use the same footage, interview many of the same people, and present very similar outlooks. One is more biased than the other in my view but I can not recall which offhand. I have not seen either in years. I Know that my viewpoint is certainly skewered by the Vietnam Vets that I have met or served with. And being the types of soldiers that they were, either draftees, or volunteers, career or in and out, their firsthand perspectives spoken soldier to soldier were often quite different than what you see on these shows. They inspired a hunger in me to do lots of reading on the war. But then again I always had an interest to read on it as an adolescent immediatly after the war ended and the Vietnamese refugees arrived locally inlarge numbers here in So Cal. I remember back then reading SLA Marshall's Three Battles, probably the first official Army sanctioned Historical work written on Vietnam, done in the same manner as his Night Drop or Pork Chop Hill.

stikpusher

Watch that DVD set then to get a good view of the other side's outlook Shell. You will get plenty of their point of view in it. I always felt that this particular documentary series was biased towards the Communist's and Anti War views. I dont recall seeing too many guys from the US military on their who were talking about the things that were done right by the US Military. Of course there were mistakes made, but there were also tings done right. It perpetuates the standard myth that Tet was a Communist victory, etc.

That SA-2 is a big kit on the transporter. I presume that you are building the 1/35 Trumpeter kit?

I'm sorry, did I reference the wrong set? I have so many I may have. I thought this one was the right one.  Maybe the one I was thinking of was "Vietnam - A Television History".  It was also a box set that originally came out on VHS then later on DVD.  Same situation, the DVD is missing some chapters not included on the VHS set.

Ken

Shellback

Thats a good list of kits Ken . I'm still getting what info i can about the conflict . I have that DVD set you mentioned . My son gave it too me . He's now over in Afghanistan with USAF .I read your bio about your dad . The F-105 is one of my favorites , actually all of those century fighters where cool ! I suppose that the Afgan war will be another war we will ponder in the future . Right now i wonder about it .I'm building the SA-2 and transport now , in NVA markings . It might help me obtain some kind of insight into the other sides outlook .

Thank you for the compliment.  I have been studying about the Vietnam War for some time now.  It was quite complicated.  There were many infuences and interests.

I agree with you about the century fighters, they are one of my favorite aircrafts.  Back when beauty and performance were rolled up together!

I am sure you are very proud of your son!  I have the upmost respect for anyone who serves in the armed forces.  It is something I wish I had done when I was young enough to do so.

Ken

Watch that DVD set then to get a good view of the other side's outlook Shell. You will get plenty of their point of view in it. I always felt that this particular documentary series was biased towards the Communist's and Anti War views. I dont recall seeing too many guys from the US military on their who were talking about the things that were done right by the US Military. Of course there were mistakes made, but there were also tings done right. It perpetuates the standard myth that Tet was a Communist victory, etc.

That SA-2 is a big kit on the transporter. I presume that you are building the 1/35 Trumpeter kit?

Thats a good list of kits Ken . I'm still getting what info i can about the conflict . I have that DVD set you mentioned . My son gave it too me . He's now over in Afghanistan with USAF .I read your bio about your dad . The F-105 is one of my favorites , actually all of those century fighters where cool ! I suppose that the Afgan war will be another war we will ponder in the future . Right now i wonder about it .I'm building the SA-2 and transport now , in NVA markings . It might help me obtain some kind of insight into the other sides outlook .

Chrisk-k

Although I've been interested in WWII for my entire life, I've only recently got interested in the Vietnam War.  I'm reading a book (Days of Valor) about what happened in '67-'68 (before the Tet Offensive) and I am totally confused!

The area of operation by the 199th Light Infantry Brigade described in the book is just above Saigon.  I know that Saigon fell in '75. So, was the North Vietnamese Army so close to Saigon in '67? Does it mean that most of Vietnam was controlled by the Vietcong in '67?  I always thought that in '67-'68 the front line was around the DMZ in the middle of Vietnam.  

One of the best documentaries I have watched on the subject of the Vietnam War is the box set “Vietnam: The Ten Thousand Day War”.  It is unbiased and gives a complete history from the time starting in WWII (when Japan invaded) to after the fall of South Vietnam.  The full version came out on 6 VHS tapes, there is a DVD version but a few of the chapters are left out.  You can still get the VHS version on eBay at a decent price if you shop around for it.  (There is one there now for $48).

On the subject of modeling for the Vietnam War, I personally plan on building one of every aircraft the USAF had used in support of the Vietnam War.  Here is a list I have put together:

Ken

LOL . You know i was woundering if you had someone do that up for you .

Talk to Ordie. Compliment him. He did it up for me. Otherwise I'd be a slicksleeve here   I can research and find stuff online like a Honey Badger, but computer graphic arts are not my forte here

Stik , i recall you saying you werent into having G.B. badges in your signature .looks like you've been busy .Tell you what , they look reaaly cool the way you have them all organized . Looks great .

Could,nt have said it better--TANKER-builder

Read all you can about the 1st. Cavalry

stikpusher

Most companies make the standard USAF camo colors of Dark Green 34079, Medium Green 34102, Tan 30219, and Light Gray 36622. I am partial to Model Master ...

Most companies make the standard USAF camo colors of Dark Green 34079, Medium Green 34102, Tan 30219, and Light Gray 36622. I am partial to Model Master and  then Polly Scale for color fidelity. Gunze's are pretty good too. Tamiya does not make any matches in their line up.

I ordered my TF-100 from Hannants today. It was the only place I could find it. Also ordered (gulp!) the fancy PE set from Eddie.

I'm a little frustrated that my book hasn't come yet; "Bury Us Upside Down", but should be any day.

Then of course the big question: whats the best SEA paint set?

I only swam in a track once at Ft Benning. There was only a few inches of freeboard between the top deck and the water level in the pond. I am glad that was my only time. Not a comfortable secure feeling.

Check this one out. You really have to watch your entry angle and load distribution. I'll bet the driver was starting to sweat a little.

Yup, FMC. My Cousin worked there for may years until he retired.

Rob Gronovius

I should also mention that the trim vane acts like a bow of the ship, keeping the nose of the 113 from wanting to run below the water surface (submarining), which would be bad if that occured. The Bradley series also had a trim vane on earlier models, but the Army decided later versions were too heavy to swim and removed the swim barrier from them.

Rob, the Scorpion turreted version was used from the mid 70's to the early 90's. (sorry, can't find definitive dates). In hindsight, yes, I should have nabbed that kit. The Tamiya kit doesn't represent the canvas boot either, my one was made with tissue and tape. The Jerry can trays are a local mod

I think swimming the FSV would have been a hair-raising experience, as the turret added some two tons to the weight. I seem to recall reading that a trials vehicle sank after they traversed the turret while under way. There's a picture somewhere of a canvas "dam" which had to be erected around the radiator grilles for swimming operations, so I imagine there wouldn't have been much freeboard (scary sight from the driver's position).

Further on "trim vanes", I believe the LAV has one which slides out from the underside of the "nose" and the AAVP7A1 has a "flip out" type.

I should also mention that the trim vane acts like a bow of the ship, keeping the nose of the 113 from wanting to run below the water surface (submarining), which would be bad if that occured. The Bradley series also had a trim vane on earlier models, but the Army decided later versions were too heavy to swim and removed the swim barrier from them.