Totally Confused about Vietnam War

I have seen both series. One was put out by PBS, and one by the CBC, IIRC. And both tend to use the same footage, interview many of the same people, and present very similar outlooks. One is more biased than the other in my view but I can not recall which offhand. I have not seen either in years. I Know that my viewpoint is certainly skewered by the Vietnam Vets that I have met or served with. And being the types of soldiers that they were, either draftees, or volunteers, career or in and out, their firsthand perspectives spoken soldier to soldier were often quite different than what you see on these shows. They inspired a hunger in me to do lots of reading on the war. But then again I always had an interest to read on it as an adolescent immediatly after the war ended and the Vietnamese refugees arrived locally inlarge numbers here in So Cal. I remember back then reading SLA Marshall's Three Battles, probably the first official Army sanctioned Historical work written on Vietnam, done in the same manner as his Night Drop or Pork Chop Hill.

stikpusher

I have seen both series. One was put out by PBS, and one by the CBC, IIRC. And both tend to use the same footage, interview many of the same people, and present very similar outlooks. One is more biased than the other in my view but I can not recall which offhand. I have not seen either in years. I Know that my viewpoint is certainly skewered by the Vietnam Vets that I have met or served with. And being the types of soldiers that they were, either draftees, or volunteers, career or in and out, their firsthand perspectives spoken soldier to soldier were often quite different than what you see on these shows. They inspired a hunger in me to do lots of reading on the war. But then again I always had an interest to read on it as an adolescent immediatly after the war ended and the Vietnamese refugees arrived locally inlarge numbers here in So Cal. I remember back then reading SLA Marshall's Three Battles, probably the first official Army sanctioned Historical work written on Vietnam, done in the same manner as his Night Drop or Pork Chop Hill.

Okay, I doubled checked and the "10,000 Day War" version is the one you want.  The "Television History" version is the PBS version which is biased against our involvment in the war.  The "Vietnam - The 10,000 Day War" is not.  It is purely factual, and gives a good honest perspective.

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

I'm sorry, did I reference the wrong set? I have so many I may have. I thought this one was the right one.  Maybe the one I was thinking of was "Vietnam - A Television History".  It was also a box set that originally came out on VHS then later on DVD.  Same situation, the DVD is missing some chapters not included on the VHS set.

Here is a suggestion, pick an area of that war that you are well read up on, say Tet, or Linebacker, or whatever. Then watch an episode that covers that area and decide for yourself if there is bias.

stikpusher

Son Of Medicine Man

I'm sorry, did I reference the wrong set? I have so many I may have. I thought this one was the right one.  Maybe the one I was thinking of was "Vietnam - A Television History".  It was also a box set that originally came out on VHS then later on DVD.  Same situation, the DVD is missing some chapters not included on the VHS set.

Here is a suggestion, pick an area of that war that you are well read up on, say Tet, or Linebacker, or whatever. Then watch an episode that covers that area and decide for yourself if there is bias.

Well, from your example, lets take Tet.  In Tet, they explain how we actually did defeat the Vietcong and they basically became an non functional force.  But because of Walter Cronkite's coverage it helped turned Americans view on the war to the negative.  And without the public's support, that is when the North Vietnamese won.

Ken

Ok guys i just read "Last Men Out " by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin , about the Marines that evacuated the US embassy in Saigon and how they were overwhelmed by all of the South Vietnamese they tried to evacuate on short notice . They were dismayed by how many Vietnamese , those that had helped us , where left behind because the politicians drug there feet on starting the evacuation .Many of those left behind were tortured and executed . I dont want to start another flame here . Fact is though our politicians back in D.C. micro managed that war and lost it from their comfortable offices in Washington D.C. ! Ken , i agree with your signature statement and Stik already knows where i stand on that war . Oh yes i'm proud of son . He actually volunteered to go over there ....and for a year on top of that !

Shellback

Ok guys i just read "Last Men Out " by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin , about the Marines that evacuated the US embassy in Saigon and how they were overwhelmed by all of the South Vietnamese they tried to evacuate on short notice . They were dismayed by how many Vietnamese , those that had helped us , where left behind because the politicians drug there feet on starting the evacuation .Many of those left behind were tortured and executed . I dont want to start another flame here . Fact is though our politicians back in D.C. micro managed that war and lost it from their comfortable offices in Washington D.C. ! Ken , i agree with your signature statement and Stik already knows where i stand on that war .

 

Yes, and the sad fact is that there was already an indication of what was going to happen from the experience learned from Tet.  Hue was a big slaughter by the Vietcong of anyone they considered to be "enemies" of the new government.

Ken

Yes, the communists showed their colors regarding those who served the RVN government and their families as far back as during the "advisory" phase of the war. When they would overrun Government camps at places like Binh Gia where the families of the defenders were slaughtered by the VC. That was part of their doctrine.

Shell, another good book about the end of that war is "The Last Battle" which is about the seizure of the SS Mayaguez and the subsequent operations to take back the ship and free its crew.

Stik , i googled that and it looks real interesting , thanks .

Son Of Medicine Man

But because of Walter Cronkite's coverage it helped turned Americans view on the war to the negative.  And without the public's support, that is when the North Vietnamese won.

Ken

It's hard to know what the VC plan was as the records don't exist in much form. But the NV did keep records as any good post-colonial organization does, and they felt that by capitalizing on anti-war sentiment in the US and abandoning a conventional war that they could not win, they would create havoc in the South.

It's interesting to read that pilots returning from sorties up North were dismayed to see all of the burning cities to the South as they flew back to their bases. This relates directly to the confusion alluded to by the original poster- conditions very similar to why we can never "win" in Afghanistan.

Ken- that's a good list. The one thing I couldn't find were Skyhawks, but I probably missed them.

Also, I am planning to model the H-21C Shawnee, UH-34 Chocktaw and the SP-5 Marlin. Did not see those.

bondoman

Son Of Medicine Man

But because of Walter Cronkite's coverage it helped turned Americans view on the war to the negative.  And without the public's support, that is when the North Vietnamese won.

Ken

Chronkite was right and that's the bitter pill. He was and is as fine a journalist as there can be. CBS had maintained a policy of basically repeating what the military told them, until Tet. At that point they felt lied to, and saw the whole enterprise for what it was. It wasn't Chronkite but the senior editorial staff that decided to call the hand.

It's hard to know what the VC plan was as the records don't exist in much form. But the NV did keep records as any good post-colonial organization does, and they felt that by capitalizing on anti-war sentiment in the US and abandoning a conventional war that they could not win, they would create havoc in the South.

It's interesting to read that pilots returning from sorties up North were dismayed to see all of the burning cities to the South as they flew back to their bases. This relates directly to the confusion alluded to by the original poster- conditions very similar to why we can never "win" in Afghanistan.

Ken- that's a good list. The one thing I couldn't find were Skyhawks, but I probably missed them.

Also, I am planning to model the H-21C Chocktaw, UH-34 Shawnee and the SP-5 Marlin. Did not see those.

I will not get into an argument about whether Cronkite was right or not on this forum, it is not the place.

As far as the other aircraft you mentioned, you did not pay close enough attention to my post.  I listed aircraft used by the USAF, not the other branches of service.  That would be another list at least twice as long.

Ken

Ken- that's the problem with this subject, but it sounds to me like you want it both ways. If you are going to throw it up there that CBS helped us lose the war, but claim that's not a political position, then the obvious conclusion is that they hit on some truth.

Thanks Ken

Hey Ken and Stik , back to the subject of models of the Vietnam war i saw a photo of an M48 tank with a bunch of NVA or V.C. ridding on it durring the last days of the the over run of the south . That could be an interesting and different subject . I dont know who makes the correct NVA / VC figures though .

Shell, there are not too many 1/35 VC/NVA figures out there. I have seenmore in Resin and white metal (older)  and of course the one set of each (NVA Sapper, Viet Cong) that Dragon makes. Master Box seems to be coming out with some great new Vietnam themed figure sets and have included a few VC figures so far. I do beleive that Warriors possiby did a couple NVA tank riders. I know that they did do a tank crew set.

Regarding Tet- from what I have read that offensive was planned in the North by Giap as its prime backer, not in the South by the VC. There would have been no way for them to co ordinate with the NVA and receive the NVA participation that it did had it been planned strictly in the south. As part of the doctrine it had several objectives: To take and hold military and political objectives across the South and defeat the ARVN in open battle; to show the population in the South that the ARVN was being defeated and inspire teh "General Uprising" of the population; to inflict a battlfield defeat upon US military forces in open combt at places like Hue, Bien Hoa, and Khe Sanh, by VC Main Force and NVA Regular (yes there were NVA irreguars- militia in the North) units. Captured battlefield documents show that the NVA wanted a Dien Bien Phu type victory at Khe Sanh at the same time; and finally to score a propaganda victory worldwide by showing that they could attack on a large scale when the US was "winning the war".

Historicly speaking, they failed on all battlefield objectives, and scored only the propaganda victory- primarily with the help of the US Press. The NVA were decisively defeated in battle, the ARVN did not fold and fought back well, and the southern population never did "rise up". The VC were essentially destroyed during Tet, with some surviving VC even thinking that they had been intentionally sacrificed by Hanoi  due to deliberately slow follow up attacks by the NVA to relieve VC units to give Hanoi better control of the southern forces during the remainder of the war.

"I don't want any damn Din Bin Phoo".

Too bad the French didn't have B-52's....

There's a good section in "Bury us..." where the FAC's observe a great deal of added traffic on the 'trail in late 1967. At first they are stymied by bad weather, and later by the Christmas Truce, from coordinating any meaningful air strikes.

What intel and photos they were able to send up the chain got buried in the bureaucracy in Saigon until it was too late.

Stik , just as i suspected , not much in the way of NVA/VC 1/35th figures.I know you had thought about a Vietnam war themed G.B. ........next year ?Not sure how much interest there will be in it . I have several possible models that will fit that conflict . I have the Tamiya M-48 and have many kits of the M-113 . I'll have to do some research but i have AFV's Long Tom ...........maybe that could apply also .Did you do a feeler on this G.b. idea ? Seems i remember you did .

Yes, the differences in the capabilities of US airpower in 1967/68 compared to the French in 1953/54 are phenomenal. All of the US air arms were able to deliver an incredible amount of firepower with excellent accuracy to support the Marine garrison. B-52 strikes within a mile or so of the perimeter and smaller fast movers dropping stuff "danger close" to friendlies. What was tried in Normandy by both the RAF and USAAF to have heavy bombers achieve was achieved at Khe Sanh.

As far as intel goes, you can gather the best in the world, but when and how it is analyzed, interpreted, distributed, and acted upon will always be the weak spot. That is the most human portion of the process.

There is always that classic Monogram/Revell B-52 kit... too bad I don't build 1/72 anymore. I always liked the look of the NMF over black early Arc Light bombers.

Shellback

Stik , just as i suspected , not much in the way of NVA/VC 1/35th figures.I know you had thought about a Vietnam war themed G.B. ........next year ?Not sure how much interest there will be in it . I have several possible models that will fit that conflict . I have the Tamiya M-48 and have many kits of the M-113 . I'll have to do some research but i have AFV's Long Tom ...........maybe that could apply also .Did you do a feeler on this G.b. idea ? Seems i remember you did .

Yes, I am planning on running a Vietnam GB in 2014 opening to co incide with the anniversary of the Gulf of Tonkin incident in August. I did a vague feeler a few weeks back and there was enough interest to go ahead.

Thats a ways off Stik . Good timing though .August of 2014 then . One thing i cant remember was it August 6 th or 7th over there .......due to the international date line .If i'm still vertical then i'll be interested . On a personal note the ship i was on ,CG-5 , was the flagship for thr 7th fleet when that incident happened . We where in port at Yokosuka , Japan . So of course we made a hasty departure for the Tonkin Gulf when that happened .

I never thought about building a B-52 . I've had the Monogram kit in my stash for years .

Yup, I like to do my historical GBs to co incide with anniversary dates. I am thinking about next year an Arab Israeli Wars GB on the anniversary of the Oct 73 war

And that BUFF is a great old build... Like their 1/48 B-17,  B-24, B-29, B-58, and C-47.... true classics

Hmmmmm ....  Israel was using the M-50 and M-51 still in that war .I have a couple of them also .

My plans for the Arab Israeli Wars GB is to include all the wars up thru 1982: War of Independence, Sinai/Suez 1956, Six Day War 1967, War of Attrition, Yom Kippur/Ramadan War 1973, and Lebanon 1982. Lots of subject choices in there including British and French...

stikpusher

Yes, the differences in the capabilities of US airpower in 1967/68 compared to the French in 1953/54 are phenomenal. All of the US air arms were able to deliver an incredible amount of firepower with excellent accuracy to support the Marine garrison. B-52 strikes within a mile or so of the perimeter and smaller fast movers dropping stuff "danger close" to friendlies. What was tried in Normandy by both the RAF and USAAF to have heavy bombers achieve was achieved at Khe Sanh.

As far as intel goes, you can gather the best in the world, but when and how it is analyzed, interpreted, distributed, and acted upon will always be the weak spot. That is the most human portion of the process.

There is always that classic Monogram/Revell B-52 kit... too bad I don't build 1/72 anymore. I always liked the look of the NMF over black early Arc Light bombers.

Looks like that might be a B-52F.

Ken

That image was used in leaflets dropped on Iraq by the USAF in 1992

"Desert Storm is coming. Flee immediately".

My one and only mud wrestle with the monogram BUFF involved a back date to a C for a movie night , Dr. Strangelove of course.

Stik we've had a few trivia contests on that one. Name of the a/c in the book?

The ultimate targeted ICBM complex name and why?

Major Kong's character was which of three actors considered, and who were the others?

However, back to Vietnam. I personally consider the B-52 to be the single most important a/c in that conflict. not withstanding the losses; that a/c could basically win a battlefield every time.

If SAM suppression was effective, the terror and destruction of a bombing raid set the enemy back weeks if not months.

Oh Bondo, you have me there on those Dr Strangelove questions. I have only seen the movie once and do not yet have it in my DVD library. But it is up next (along with Fail Safe) in my Netflix queu. My last movie there was The Bedford Incident . Lets just say I was considering the mindet differences between then and now. I will have to look on IMDB and see if the answers are there on that trivia just for S&Gs. I do recall that when I watched Dr Strangelove how in the Air Force Base combat sequences that Kubrick used the style of filming with the assaulting troops (as he would do again in Full Metal Jacket) that was later raved about in Spielberg's Saving Private Ryan...

Regarding the BUFF in Vietnam, it was indeed a decisive weapon. Using it as a tactical bomber for 7 years in "low threat" areas while single and twin seat fighter bombers were used to conduct strategic bombing campaigns in the heart of the enemy defenses pretty much sums up the "AB" approach to the air war. Tactical errors made in Linebacker II were quickly analyzed and corrected and by the end of those two weeks, if anything close to a victory in the air, by air, can be claimed, it was due to the BUFF along with all the supporting air elements- SEAD, MiGCAP, EW, Tankers...

Slim Pickens got the part, John Wayne was approached but refused to even respond for obvious reasons, and Dan Blocker turned it down.

Interesting... all three visually fit the role...

Leper Colony

Hmmmm, the same as is 12 O'Clock High... interesting

Amazing this thread is still going.  Just dropped in, first time in a long time, to see what's keeping it afloat.

It's hard to imagine anybody but Slim Pickens riding the bomb, LOL!.  As for Linebacker, etc., POWs have said that the only time they saw fear on the faces of their guards was while the B-52s were set loose.  Oddly enough, their treatment actually improved during those times.  My cousin did three tours in Thailand as B-52 aircrew (engineering) during 'Nam, and logged time over the North (he also served as crewchief of a KC-135 in Desert Storm).

Stik, count me in for your 'Nam GB, when it gets here.  Anyway, think I'll read back a few pages to see what's been going on ...