Super detail, time, and money

If you ask many contest judges, they will tell you after market items per se does not make a better model. Besides, you can always scratch build the details.

The first thing a judge looks at is the build, paint and decal application quality in the entry. With out these, no am parts will make a difference as your score will take HUGE hits if the fundamentals of model building are not met.

I cannot recall a model show that I have attended, and I have attended at least 50 shows where OOB category was not featured. The only reason I get am items is if I want to open up panels  to showoff internals or if the plastic part is not scale or too thick , as in a ship's railing as an example. Otherwise I build it pretty much out of the box with some scratch work of missing details.

I really don't get builders that replace perfectly good detailed parts in kits, specially if they will  not be visible with super expensive am parts.

Hello!

Every model has it's limitations and inaccuracies. First thing a conscious modeller has to do, is to define what is he trying to accomplish, realize the cost (in money, but also time and hard work) and stick to it. If you don't, you run the risk of the "I want it all" attitude, and that can be frustrating. A serios limiting factor in modelling is the nowledge of the 1:1 subject. Suppose you're doing a german WWII fighter. Ever seen one? Unrestored? Just after that we can get really detailed about colours and little details. Otherwise it can look cool with aftermarket but will not necessarily be accurate.

A very interesting subject, by the way, thanks for bringing it up Don!

Have a nice day

Paweł

Super detailing certainly takes time. But money is another question. Fermis is probably the prime example of builders on here who use inexpensive materials such as cut up soda/tea cans and salvaged wire to super detail his builds. And his builds are simply a joy to see on here. Even for a modest investment in strip, rod, and sheet styrene, plus a bit more for some brass wire, lets say in the total of $20, a modeler can get the basic raw materials for their own super detailing stuff. For the cost of one AM set or less.

This year is my first time attempting to use aftermarket parts on 3 different kits - all of them gun barrels. Who knows what I'll do down the road? Undercarriage pods/weapons, wheels/tires, cowling, etc...

It all depends on what the subject I want tobuild to make it look as accurate as possible for my benefit and satisfaction.

I have cut my aftermarket usage back a bit. I now only use what is really necessary, or things that really make my life easier. A few examples can point this out.  I don't scratchbuild RF noses for a Cougar, I use one of the two conversion kits for that. AD-5W radomes are another spot, it is just so much easier to cut out and clean up, and then glue on the Falcon vac radome, than to follow the old Airfix instructions that I used to make a balsa wood radome for my AD-4W. (built a very long time ago)

I don't cut, carve, sand, etc, the parts to make a Mk 7 for a Nuke A-1, I just use one of the resin Mk 7 I bought from Spectre. I use aftermarket weapons whenever I can get them, it saves so much time over making a master to cast my own. Things like a 1/72 scale Gatling for the AC-47,,,,,,nope, not going to scratch build 4 of those, I just buy the Quickboost set.

I don't use Aftermarket in the cockpits anymore, either,,,,,,,just a resin seat, or the best injected plastic seat I have spare.

If I display my model somewhere that a viewer can peek in my cockpit and tell me that my instrument panel has the Altimeter where the Mach gauge should be,,,,,,I will just distract him by asking him to tell me some of his flying stories.  And let's face it, most modelers don't know things like Phantom rear cockpits well enough to know that an RF-4B is the exception to the "no console" in back of Naval Phantoms rule. (so, I make sure I put that console in every RF-4B, lol)

I agree with Don,,,,,,the cost of modeling stays fairly constant whether you detail or not, I go for the "most for the least" approach.

I do have a deadline of sorts,,,,,,I don't want to be the guy that built an aircraft for only 73% of the carriers from CV-1 to CVN-76.

Rex

Well thought out and stated opinions by all. Now,, it is my turn! Having gotten rid of all my modeling stuff about 20 years ago, I'm still buying kits I want. Not having grown up on PE and aftermarket stuff, that was all very new to me when I got back into the hobby. Never needed it, didn't use it, why bother?  Now, I've gotten some kits with PE included and I must say, I'm not a fan. My eyes are too bad, hands too stiff and patience too far gone. Most of it, I simply cannot see! I will also in all likelihood, never build a model for a contest or any type of show. I do like TarnShip's philosophy, use it as needed and not automatically.

However, I greatly admire those that use all they can get of this stuff and make what I consider "museum quality" pieces.

Fermis, Stikpusher and BSYamato have mastered the skill it seems, of using almost anything to create their own PE and aftermarket things. Scary good, they are.

How do you build a contest winning model? Basics, basics, basics.

Detailing and superdetailing are nice, tons of research and accurizing are fun, documented alternate schemes are cool, but it all four wheels aren't on the ground, road wheels or tracks are floating, ordnance is crocked, plastic isn't painted it the decals are silvered,. if there are finger prints in the paint and glue on the glass, if there are seam lines and mold lined, ejector pin marks and sinkholes, your only chance of winning is having models with more of these flaws than your own.

We had to do a 2nd and 3rd place tie breaker at our show Sunday, The kit that was eliminated lost second because rescribed panel lines where they'd been sanded off did not line up and the demarkation along the anti glare panel was not as sharp as could be. The other kit didn't have these issues.

We stopped offering OOB awards quite some time ago for two reasons. First, fully half of the awards would would not be used as there weren't any OOB in the class. Second, about half the OOB winning kits would also place 1, 2 or 3. When we did do a small OOB only contest at a display event, the same people who won with highly detailed kits in regular contests won in the OOB contest, indicating it was the quality of the builder, with or without AM/scratchbuilt parts.

Some lot of years ago, FSM featured a highly modified 1/32 Monogram P-51D which had been converted to represent the RB-51 racer, the Red Baron. From the pictures in the mag, it was a shoe in to win the Nats that year.  A lot of us were stunned when it didn't even place - and even more stunned to learn that if you looked down thru the cockpit, you could see the ground below thru the wheel wells - none of us had noticed the builder had not furnished any pics of the interior as he had not installed one beyond the seat furnished in the kit!

Very nice subject.

I think superdetailing, whether through AM parts or scratchbuilding, depends on one's goals.  It might be for competitions, or what not, but for me, its for personal satisfaction.

Ive joined quite a number of contests over the years, and have been lucky enough to claim a number of wins.  I used to superdetail models for the competition, obviously, but  I havent actually been joining contests lately.  I of course attend to see the entries, and have been asked to judge a number of times, but I havent really joined in recent years (with the exception of 2012).  

Still, I superdetail my models as much as I can, even if I dont join contests. Why?  Because it gives me satisfaction.  And really, I wouldnt do scale modeling if it didnt give me any satisfaction.  I just want to see how far I can go with almost every kit I build, especially on kits I feel I likely wont build again.

A few months back I scratchbuilt a reasonably complete cockpit for a 1/200 C-130H.  I shook my head when I confirmed my own fears after completion that I could hardly see the tiny cockpit through the small windows.  Guess what?  Im currently building a 1/200 KC-767 which has even smaller windows, and I still built a complete cockpit.  Just so Im satisfied knowing its there.  Hahaha.

I try my best to scratchbuild my detail parts.  Lately, though, Ive been forced to buy PE railings for my 1/700 ships when I noticed my sight isnt as good as, oh, say, 10 years ago.

I am not really into contest anymore so I cannot really comment on wether AM is neccessary to win or not. But in IPMS rules the basics and consistency are the most important criterea.

As for using AM or not. Half of the time the kits that I build do not have any AM items avaible.

I do like to scratch some items but I would hardly call the super detailing, just dressing the model up, adding a sense of business. If it can not be seen, I am not modelling it.

I can be in complete awh when I see a master at work like ChuckW. But that is not what I am trying to achieve with my models. So in short, detailing(AM or scratch), yes, super detailing, no, not for me but if that "floats your boat" please do. And post pics, because it is always impressive to see.

This has been a really helpful discussion for me to read. I am trying hard not to let my hobby become a fixation. I see what some folks do with their models and am blown out of the water. I am learning from what they do, but I really don't want to get worried about whether or not my model can get first place in a contest. I live with enough pressure. I don't need my de-compression activity to end up compressing me. So, I'm trying to find balance between good and best for my own satisfaction.

I am working on a Bronco Models kit right now that came with a small PE sheet. It includes little tiny handles that are supposed to replace the little protrusions for handles molded on the sides of some pieces. I'm sure they would look really cool under a magnifying glass, but once I put them on, hit them with primer and a coat of paint, I'm not sure you could even see through the hand opening on some of them. I'm not even sure I could see them once I cut them out of the sheet to put them on! Needless to say, I'm not bothering with those. There are a couple pieces that I will use because I think they'll add something meaningful to the build. The rest will go into my little spares collection.

I hope the detail people will keep building and posting pics. I am learning a lot and I like the results when I incorporate some of what I learn. I doubt I'll ever be in their league. That makes me sad to some degree, but I want to build for fun, and I can't have fun if I am worried about winning some competition. I'll post some stuff as time goes on and maybe somebody will like it and say so. That will be cool, but I hope no one says, "hey you got the wrong shade of grey on that knob."

I'm glad I came across this forum. It's a great group.

Hi DON :

  Well you certainly hit the nail on the head here .I will take maybe a year to do one or two ships with the works and then in between I do OOBs mostly . I find that my ships that are 1/160 and 1/87 are the most fun though . It takes about three years to finish one using only found materials or crossover parts cheap at a model railroad show . I have railed both ships I have this way . Deck details are in my K&S brass and Evergreen bins . More fun and cheaper that way . I still will do stuff no one sees unless they ask . Then off comes the bridge , 02 deck , 01 deck and Deckhouse to show that glorious engine room . I know ,kind of anal ,but I enjoy the looks when I do this .Detailed cabins , you bet !

My original post was meant to apply to ship kits, but since I do dabble in scratchbuilt ships now and then, I'll comment on this too. I think scratch built ships are quite economical!  I also find it takes a year, even more, for a scratchbuilt ship.  I build them from basswood or clear pine or aspen, widely available and reasonably priced material.  I even use the wood for larger deck structures, but use the styrene for smaller stuff.  All pretty inexpensive material.  Since I specialize in Great Lakes ships, there is not as much aftermarket material available, so don't buy many commercial fittings nor PE, though if it is a scale where railings are available in PE, as in 1:192 or 1:350 I do often buy the railings.  But a set of pe railings is still not that expensive for a project that takes a year or more.  When I am doing one of these kind of products my expenses are pretty low!

Let's face it, scratchbuilding of ships was the original modelbuilding, long before there were firms selling model kits.  And, before there were airplanes, cars, tanks, and such.  So we have a long tradition and a history to look back on and not have to reinvent any wheels (or masts?).

re invent the hull? ;-)

Haha, as a former ship modeler, I have to say, there have been a couple of ship kits that require us to "re-invent the hull"  In fact they are quite famous throughout the ship modeling world.

I have to fess up, when I sold off my unbuilt ship collection, I kept about two dozen of those Destroyer and smaller ship models, and enough PE to build them.

They are cool little diversions from the Aviation related stuff, and are cheap to super-detail with PE and resin parts, but, at 1/700 they don't take up a lot of room. I use them to get my "tiny parts" urges filled, that way I can build the aircraft models the way I described in my previous post. And I get to build 1/700 Sherman tanks for the Landing Craft type of ships.

The real trick with all of this,,,,,,,,no matter what level you choose to go to,,,,,,is to actually stick to that level once you decide it. If you decide that almost all of your models will be OOB except for one type, say one you worked on, then don't buy 400 aftermarket kits for the other models.

It is extremely easy to start buying cockpits for this, seats for that, PE for those, resin turrets for that ship, decals for everything,,,,,,,,and books.

I don't know if this would help anyone else, but, I typed my "modeling objective" out and printed it. It has actually acted as a brake when sitting at the PC, where all the "click and buy" action happens.

Rex

I don't know if I buy the whole cost per hour philosophy in modeling. It's like saying "if you want to save money, then you must build slowly". I'm concerned about my cost per kit. If I can learn to do without a bunch of fancy aftermarket and yet still add extra detail using cheaper methods, then I can save money on each build regardless of how many hours it takes me to finish.

Well I build slowly enough nowadays, whether OOB, adding AM, or scratching my own super detail work. So that argument of cost per hour does not really fly with me either. If I add a ton of details that I made myself from wire and sheet/strip/rod styrene stock, it will likely take me longer to create and at a lower cost, than if I buy a PE fret to do the same thing at a higher cost.

Hi :

Well I do have to say this .I don't look at " Cost per hour " at all . I look at time well spent doing what I love . That is creating ships that no one makes in model form and believe me there are lots of those  .Now going back to Don's last comment  .I do build from wood as well as plastic and paper ( that's right , I said paper ) in a lot of scales too  .My real pleasure lies in the little speed boats that you see in my avatar .Take one block of aspen or basswood and then see if I can get the classic shape of a 1948 " barrelback " twin cockpit classic boat with mahogany over planking and all the cockpit details too !That is a big break from the ordinary .

  Let this be a reminder though .Don't think in " Cost per hour " think in terms of  " Gee , what a pleasure that was to build , I didn't think  I've been working on it that long .Time flies when you are enjoying yourself " After all,  with or without the A.M it is a Hobby , isn't it ? I only worry about cost per hour when it is a commission piece .

If we mean the cost per hour as meaning at ordinary building speed, then building slowly doesn't accomplish anything.  My whole point is that we sometimes shy away from buying an expensive kit just because of the price.  If it is a long and complicated kit, you can sell it to significant other on the cost per year basis :-)  

And I would strongly argue that scratch building improves both the cost per hour and the cost per model.  The one hiccup might be if the scratch project requires some expensive tool that you don't need for kit building nor for normal activities around house (I occasionally build some furniture, so the woodworking tools can be amortized over that as well as my scratch modeling).

Your second point Don is what held me back from scratch building for quite sometime. It took me awhile to build up a collection of different shapes and sizes of Evergreen plastic, as well as different tools such as razor saws, more drill bits, more hobby knives, punch sets, wire, and lots of brass and aluminum micro tubing. And don't forget bare metal foil, as well as ref books. And now I can't live without these!

Don Stauffer

If we mean the cost per hour as meaning at ordinary building speed, then building slowly doesn't accomplish anything.  My whole point is that we sometimes shy away from buying an expensive kit just because of the price.  If it is a long and complicated kit, you can sell it to significant other on the cost per year basis :-)  

And I would strongly argue that scratch building improves both the cost per hour and the cost per model.  The one hiccup might be if the scratch project requires some expensive tool that you don't need for kit building nor for normal activities around house (I occasionally build some furniture, so the woodworking tools can be amortized over that as well as my scratch modeling).

Nope, financially I can not sell buying an expensive kit to mama, because if we can not afford it, we can not afford it. Be it $50 or $250. Financial times are tight right now with no prospect of improvement on the immediate horizon. And I am one who knows that "Hope" is not a method. One of the guys in my AMPS Chapter ribbed me about that if instead of building all those older less expensive kits, I could afford to buy one or two new expensive kits. I had to explain to him that most of those older kits were bought when: 1) I was in a better place financially, 2) they were the only game in town available, and 3) those new expensive kits that he was referring to were only pipe dreams.

Hi ;

  Even if they are " Pipe Dreams " it keeps you plugging along ,  doesn't it ? I too , at 71 and am on a fixed income (very decidedly Fixed ) it is a dream on most of them .Do I pay rent or buy that very expensive ship kit  (.Well , buy the ship kit , of course ! )  Just kidding there , It's pay the rent and continue building what's in front of me . Ah , well , it's still good  .I am here and I am still modeling !

Nathan T

Your second point Don is what held me back from scratch building for quite sometime. It took me awhile to build up a collection of different shapes and sizes of Evergreen plastic, as well as different tools such as razor saws, more drill bits, more hobby knives, punch sets, wire, and lots of brass and aluminum micro tubing. And don't forget bare metal foil, as well as ref books. And now I can't live without these!

I find I need those supplies even for kits (other than an OOB build).  The tools are something else. I still do not have a decent set of very small punches (been modeling for over 65 years).  Building a decent miniature punch set is on my to-do list. One thing I find about scratch builders is that we tend to build a lot of our own tools, too.

geez, Silver,,,,,,,,,you took 4th/Copper at a few shows, we get it.  (except the one that you entered the Die-Cast in)

I was just joking with some Modelers and Vendors (and Modeler/Vendors) at a show in Alabama on Saturday about how serious some take the competition aspect of the shows.

We laughed and agreed that we pretty much build at the 4th-25th or Copper down to Lead levels with our "normal" models, and then try for 1-2-3 or G-S-B with certain models when the urge strikes us. But, we were pretty sure that we didn't want to judge that day, and then later, we agreed that the "best model won" in each category at the show.

Sometimes a judge might make a mistake,,,,,,,,but, more often than not, if you "built a 1st place model, guaranteed" and it took 2nd, 3rd or 25th, it was because a judge saw a mistake that the builder missed.

Rex

(it is 2014, and this is the internet, so, here is some optional reading. I do know that awards aren't given for 4th to 25th, and I do know that there is no Copper or Lead level at a GSB event,,,,,,,,but, we were rushing to claim the lowest build level we could, in the spirit of joking and having fun,,,,,,,heck, Anne suggested that my models were really "Sulphur level", because they were worse than Lead, and stink when burned)

this is kind of a tough subject.  I generally don't understand why Adults feel the need to compete.  I build models because of that feeling you get when you finally finish it and just stare at it for hours.  Thats why you should be in this hobby.  My favorite aircraft of all time is the F-117, it has fascinated me since I was young.  I have built 5 or 6 different F-117's.   I do it because I love the airplane and I love building models.  Competition kills the passion and fun.  

Competition is natural in humans. It probably is in our hardwiring from hunter gatherer days. It exists in one form or another in nearly everything we do. As far as it pertains to modeling one has no need to compete against other builders, but using your F-117 example, don't you want the "best" kit of that plane in your collection? We even compete against ourselves. Are we not all trying to improve our modeling skills so that our latest build is done better than our first ever?