Andy...I totally agree with you.  I read that as well, and I feel the same as you.  I am fairly new to the hobby and guess what? Reading that made me feel like that if my work would be scrutinized to that degree, I want no part of it.  I am mostly into the hobby for the fun of it.  Yes I want to improve my skills, and yes I want to try and make it a fairly accurate representation of the subject. However, part of it is artistic license.  The build is whatever our vision is for the project. It is not somone else's vision, but it is ours.  

Is this a trend? A few issues earlier another modeler was somewhat scruitinized for adding rust to portions of the track assembly with his tank build. I think the commentary was titled, Lose the Rust.  The writer stated that those components don't rust.  I can see education on stuff like this is good, but boy, did I feel bad for the guy that built the model.  Here the guy built this beautiful model, and had this nice big layout in FSM.  What a cool thing he accomplished on many levels.  He must have felt really good about it.  Then what. The next issue comes out, and someone says, in essence, hey man, you screwed up!  That would have been like a sword right through the stomach.  The whole world reads this, and it pretty much nullifies all the good things that this modeler did.  Well, he did great in my book!

Frankly, I was pretty disappointed in FSM for putting these comments into their magazine. Or maybe, I am misguided in what FSM is all about.  If FSM is about absolute total accuracy, then OK.  In that case, however, I might reconsider my subscription when it comes due. I say that not because I am angry about it, I say that because it does not represent what I feel the hobby should be.  

Thanks for stepping up on this.  

Steve

Well said Andy & Steve. Both of these comments should be put in the August issue of Fine Scale Model magazine's editorial.

My thought is that if you post a model on a forum like this,then you have know it'd going to get analyzed and critiqued.One can't get upset if someone feels it's over weathered,or if tool is in the wrong place,or if the camo scheme is not appropiate.Now granted,no criticism should be given in a condescending sneering way,but if someone is pointing something out that's "incorrect well that's fine.If someone doesn't want to hear these thoughts,if they don't care that something is off.Then they need to say "here is my latest build,look but no comments please,I'm just building for fun".But if you post,expect comments good or critical,or do we just want attaboys.

I picked up the latest issue a couple of days ago and had a similar reaction when I read that same feedback. I was scratching my head as to why someone would be bothered by such a trend to a point of writing about it and hoping to get it published…and even more so why FSM would publish it. I understand the desire on the publisher’s part to show all sides and opinions but I don’t see how a negative rant on something so subjective is constructive. When I see a model I do not agree with on how it was finished that last thought of not agreeing with it is just that, my last thought. I then move on to the next subject. I am trying to see the positive in this feedback and more so in the publishing of such. I suppose it is good to see/hear all sides but for me I’m still going to make my tanks and other AFVs beat-up and dirty….and where appropriate – rusty! To me, there is more of an artistic challenge in trying and adding new effects and techniques. If it works, great; if not, I learned something.

And for those curious: Verisimilitude - something that only appears to be true or real, e.g. a statement that is not supported by evidence.

-Len

Okay ;

    I am guilty of that critizism .Why , well let me tell you a story ( based on a special needs (as we call them now ) Child ) This young man had a private life he didn't talk about  .Okay . he comes to our model show  . His tank , looks to most , like he dipped it in runny dog doo .

    He got laughed at and criticized so vocally he ran from the room .

   Enter your's truly , head judge at this event . I too thought the model had been dragged through dog doo . I thought it , BUT didn't say anything out loud . I did vote for the model to get a " special effort "ribbon though.

   Why ? Well this was his first show AND contest and you could tell by observing his actions , he was different . I couldn't find him . When I did He was outside holding what was left of the model he destroyed because every-one laughed at him !

   To make a long story short .He needed a ride home .That's when I found out where he was coming from . His Dad had been a Helo pilot in the " NAM " Got shot down and mangled beyond belief .But he lived . The boy had to deal with this every single day and had no one to relate to . He did now .With his mom's permission of course .Turned into a loving , caring person and one heck of a modeler .Only because someone held back the criticism and gave him a break . Yes I criticized his future work in a way that it taught , it didn't detract from the work .I always try to start my conversations on this with ,  "Well , what I did was this" . May I ask why you went that way ? "

I think it kinda boils down to criticism is good but don't be a jerk...  

I agree Gamera. Gonna have to pick up the new issue of FSM over the weekend for sure to see for myself.

I agree totally.I build my models the way I want to and not to impress others.I recently was taken to task about inaccuarcies in my Thermopylae build.Did not appreciate it and I hope it was a misguided effort to "help: me I explained that the kit was really the Sark and so it could Not be an accurate representation of the Thermopylae as it was,Its all good because it came out great and I have received numerous compliments both off and online that are really gratifying!

I wonder about the mental state of folks who are so bothered by over-weathering in general that they feel the need to write and publish an article about it... Who knows, lots of those so called over weathering jobs probably looked real nice, accurate or not. Just remember, no matter what your preferences are towards weathering, there are always photos of the real thing to back it up, whether you want a clean build or a weathered one.

Been reading some of the comments and made me again realize why I am so reluctant to share what I've built since coming back into the hobby.  There have been times when it seems reading the online builds and the articles in the magazine that unless you match your build exactly to real  thing as it was on this given day, then you are wrong.  Somewhat depressing when you just want to build what you like and enjoy the bobby.

Then I had the chance to go to the IPMS Atlanta Con this year.  The vast majority of the builds I saw were straight OOB and they looked fantastic.  If it was overweathered, didn't care.  The person who built it put in a lot of effort and made an outstanding product.  Was the main landing gear 1.6nm to the right.  Didn't care, it looked fantastic.  Reminded me, to build to enjoy and continue to learn new skills and advance what I've learned.  

There's a VAST difference between constructive critique, especially when it is specifically requested in one's post, and the condescending "That's not right because it isn't done MY way" tripe that can be too prevalent on any type of hobby oriented site forum. The latter is the reason that so many "lurkers" never step into the mix to talk, much less show the works they are attempting. There are a number of "attitude oriented offenses" that have the affect of running off potential participants and narrowing forum participation to just a few "accepted" clique members.

When I look at a build that was posted on the forums, I don't look hard enough to see any inaccuracies, all I see is the time and effort that went into the build. If I could do better, I remember when I was at that stage of the hobby and how it took everything I had to give to make it look that "good" and how proud I was of it. Now since I have been posting on the forums, I have has several very helpful critiques and/or suggestions which have helped me improve.

There is a way to suggest an alternate method to do something different, which comes from experience, without overshadowing the modelers time and treasure.

Now to be exasperated over someone's over-weathering is just silly. As Nathan stated, there's always a picture to back up a build.

As was stated earlier, this hobby is for fun. I try to be accurate, but in reality, once a build is complete, it gets put on the shelf and I move on the the next one. The audience which will see it afterwards doesn't know the difference between a B-52 and a Cessna 150. OK, maybe my wife does.

Live and let live, I say. Or build and let build. And remember what your mother used to say-- if you can't say anything good, then don't say anything. This doesn't mean that some constructive criticism would be unwarranted or unwelcome (well, most of the time) but, as Gamera said-- don't be a jerk. And if somebody's model causes you angst or "exasperation" then I would suggest the problem is with the observer and not with the builder.

As a new modeler, I welcome criticism of my work. It helps me see things from different angles. If someone suggests I do something that goes against what I intended - which hasn't happened - then I guess I would politely thank them and maybe explain why I went another way, and that I will keep their suggestion in mind for a future build perhaps

As far as attitudes about other people's work, I only see error if someone goes against their own concept. But, even then, it's not that big a deal to me. And, I guess more important is my critique is also my own and very subjective. I would never go to a painter or sculptor and tell them I think they should have used a different shade of blue here, or that piece of angle iron is not bent the right way. There's also impressionism vs. realism, and that seems pretty big in modeling. I guess in realism it's all on the table, and picking out accuracy should be welcomed, but there's also an impressionistic side to modeling where maybe you painted a blue duck just because you wanted to see a blue duck. I can dig that. I can't stand rap music, or those goofy wagon wheels some folks put on their cars these days, BUT I still can appreciate the creativity and effort, and even the skill in execution. I've seen a ton of over-weathered models that look darn good, and were done at a skill level far beyond my capabilities. I may not have done what they did, but I am not them, and I didn't do it. So, what's the problem there? Also, I guess the criticism in question (over-weathering) doesn't apply to sci-fi?

Felt like chiming in on this for some reason. I gotta go off to work now. Have a great weekend guys!

So I guess the best thing to do is to never comment on anyone else's build. And if so, what's the point of even being here.

While I do firmly believe each modeller should build how he wants, I also agree with Mr Humble to a point. The current trends may be very artistic and look nice, but unfortunately they have been pushed so much, they have almost become the only way to build and those who dare try and build accurately are some how falling short. But I always welcome suggestions and comments, and its then up to me if I follow on with that. But the attack's on the so called rivet counters have become so nasty that many don't feel comfortable giving advice.

May I be so bold as to make a suggestion. When posting build pics, add a comment at the end of the post saying one of 2 things.

Either.

1) All comments and suggestions are welcome.

or

2)Keep your silly comments to yourself.

At least that way we won't offend anyone.

jetmaker

As a new modeler, I welcome criticism of my work. It helps me see things from different angles. If someone suggests I do something that goes against what I intended - which hasn't happened - then I guess I would politely thank them and maybe explain why I went another way, and that I will keep their suggestion in mind for a future build perhaps

That's the perfect way to deal with it. As long as the advice is given in a polite and helpful way and is not patronising or insulting, all you have to do is say thank you I may consider doing that or thank you but ......

It works, on a couple of recent armour builds I had suggestions that I followed and others that I didn't. No one was offended or upset, they excepted my reasons and left it at that.

Thanks for the all feedback guys and it's all good feedback. Trust me,  I did respond as well through the magazine Scale Talk section. I'm not certain they will publish it but it's worth a shot. Just one of those issues I felt strongly about.

Just my two bits. I read a lot of different modeling mags, like six. This one is after all named "Finescale...". I'm not suggesting that it has to be that way, but the level of detail accuracy runs high here, and I like this site for that.

My copy of the issue in question hasn't arrived yet, so I hesitate to comment on anything specific in it. But as a general principle, I think anybody who gets "exasperated" by somebody else's models has lost sight of what the hobby is about.

That said, I freely admit that there are some fairly common things that bug me a little in ship modeling. People who build HECEPOB (for the uninitiated, that's Hideously Expensive Continental Plank-On-Bulkhead) kits out of the box, and turn their noses up at plastic kits, bug me a little. People who rig ship models without having any idea of how rigging actually works...well, they don't exactly exasperate me, but I'm not going to spend much time looking at their models. And if I'm going to spend money on a magazine about scale modeling, I do have an expectation that the models in it will come up to a certain standard.

Several years ago I read an article in a general scale modeling magazine (not an American one) that contained one article on a warship model. It was built from a thirty-year-old Airfix kit. The author freely admitted that he'd never built a ship model before, he had no idea what the various parts were, or why that particular ship was of interest. And he airbrushed the whole thing one shade of grey. He said he knew the bottom was supposed to be red, but he was out of masking tape.

I quite buying that magazine. But I really think this is an extreme example. The vast majority of the models featured in FSM at least meet, and frequently surpass, my own personal standards of skill and accuracy.

The people who REALLY irritate me are the ones who turn up their noses at other people's models. That kind of behavior, in my opinion, accomplishes absolutely nothing.

Greetings everyone.  As expected, this can be a contentious topic, and a person has to choose their words carefully.  At least I do. Too often, I shoot from the hip.  Bang!   Dang it...

For awhile this conversation turned in the direction of criticism, and if criticism is a good thing.  Maybe I played a part  in turning the conversation in that direction with my earlier post.  I am not sure.  If I did, that was not my intent.  I have no problem with constructive criticism.  I feel that it has it's proper place, and venue.  I think that is especially true when one is part of a group build.  As I understand them, that is what GBs are for.  That is to learn from each other, and hopefully grow into a better scale modeler.  My gosh... I learned a lot from participating in one, and in my experience, people have been extremely polite, patient, and incredibly helpful.   I don't always follow the advice, but I appreciate it none the less.

Maybe I didn't articulate this well in my first post, but for me, the issue at hand was that the Scale Talk editorial seemed more of a rant, not very constructive, and that it seemed pretty subjective in nature.  But hey---everyone is entitled to their opinion, and FSM chose to print his.   That is their right to do.  If it would bother me so much, I can choose not to read their magazine.  And that is my right.  I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water here.  I have always, and I continue to feel that FSM is the best scale modeling magazine out there.  It is clear that they work hard to bring the reader a quality product.  It is just my recent concern with some of the Scale Talk editorials that make me stop and take pause.  This is all just my humble opinion, and I am sure that some others will disagree, and that is ok.  Everyone here has had some really good input.

stikpusher

Like Fleetwood Mac sang, "you can go your own way"

Stik, that's a great Fleetwood Mac song.  One of the few from "Rumours" that I still enjoy each time I hear it.  Thanks for the smile that brought!

Gary

Bakster, I have not read the issue in question, nor seen the comment you are referring to. So I can not comment on the comment in question. But, constructive criticism is a lifesaver at times. Especially when well delivered in a timely manner. But criticism strictly for the sake of making the critic sound or feel self important, or poorly delivered critiques can be real downers. And mind you each of us have varying thickness of skin. I like to close my posted builds with "comments and critiques welcome", because I truly want to hear what I can improve upon for my NEXT project of the same type. After all, when we post here a finished work, 99% of the time, we are not going back and changing anything. After all, it is now completed. But we can mentally file away the "attaboys" and "aw cruds" for the next one. Do this again, don't do that again.

Tex, it is a great song indeed. I'm glad to hear that you smiled from the thought of the song.

Stik...that is well said.  Thanks for the input.

Your wish is my command... LOL!

www.youtube.com/watch

 I got a chance to read Mr. Humble's letter last night,  and most of what I feel about it was written in the first two posts of this thread.  I am surprised it was published.  My advice to Mr. Humble would be to chill out a little and celebrate the fact that a model was completed, because every time a model is completed on earth, an angel gets a new kit in Heaven.                                              knox        

There's an old saying .... "Where there's smoke, there's fire" And this is the case here from the responses we have read in this forum thread.

Last night, I finally got the chance to read the July issue of FSM magazine. I was appalled that the article even got printed. Sounds like certain things bothered him - especially when he ranted on about the over use of rusting particularly on a fiberglass rear fender stating they rust in a different way. I think Mr. Humble needs to sit back, pop open a bottle of ripple and think about how he presented himself in the FSM magazine. Everyone sees their work of art in their own way.  I don't mind the constructive criticism, but this is not constructive criticism. That's being rude and arrogant as any rivet counter would be.

Methinks wonder if he knew or had a clue of what kind of backlash / firestorm he'd caused.

I'm even more surprised that FSM editors even went ahead and put it the magazine without even making a few minor adjustments of his wording in his letter.  A little tweaking can go a long way without making the writer make a fool of himself acting like a rivet counter. Heck, maybe his article never should have been printed to begin with if FSM knew how fellow hobbyists on here would reacted to his article.