It isn't every day you get reamed by Stanley Tigerman.

I had my share of that while I worked at SOM.

It does give one a certain perspective on tough criticism.

I'm actually pretty thin skinned when I get critiqued, so in turn I try to be polite to others. The www is a pretty wild frontier, but in-person diplomacy is important.

Reaper didn't say this young fella quit modeling he just believed he may or afraid he might.

At 65 I guess that makes me an old geezer but never had I ever gave a discouraging word to any modeler about his/her build. I enjoy the hobby and seeing kits made by fellow modlers the good and the bad. Heavens know I made a few bad builds over the years by being in a rush and skipping the basics but I chalk it up as a learning experience.

The key is to enjoy the hobby and have fun. That's what I keep telling myself when I trying folding or bending PE parts.

I’m not one to critize a build nor am I an expert when it comes to accuracy. I build to satisfy myself. If I have a question on a certain subject, I will ask. Never have I said a build is wrong or inaccurate. Everybody is entitled to build at their best of ability and to learn new methods and tricks along the way is invaluable.

GMorrison

I'm actually pretty thin skinned when I get critiqued, so in turn I try to be polite to others.

Holy cow, an honest man posting.

The subject of 'to critique or not to critique' was discussed year after year on a photography forum I was married to until it ceased to exist a short time ago. After years of perusal, I came to the conclusion that some folks can take it, some can't, so unless one understands which sort of folk one is addressing, my current opinion is to keep the critique positive.

I'm like Bill, I choose to believe I want critique but reality is I'm also thin-skinned. (well-put on GM's part).  If somebody I know does it (like one of you guys), I'll be fine with it. If a new guy who just joined with 10 posts does it, not so much.

I always thought this might be a good topic for a Masters in Modeling thesis.

TankerEasy

The old coot that bashed the eyes is the same geezer that a couple weeks prior posted some of the absolute worst work and received absolute praise over which had my head spinning when he ripped mine... 

I hate when people play favoritism. ABSOLUTE NONSENCE! Add that the old coot can't see his work sucks... man, it's almost funny, if it weren't so maddening. 

I will post a build on here, if I built it outside a group build, and I feel it's post worthy. I can't get away with it if it's a group build, but I have some builds that just stink that y'all will never see. When I do post one I expect and want some critiques, this is why I have improved so much in the last 5 years since joining. Sometimes, like recently, I posted an F-16 build that I unrealisticly loaded with ordance (at the request of the person whom I built it for). I noted it in the post and was happy that the members who comemnted did so regarding the build and not so much the realisem of the subject.

Slightly off topic but just wanted to say thanks.

I have to say I agree with everything being said in this post.  And in this particular instance, I think it is how the comments were offered to the young man.  Unfortunately, chances are they were probably not on the positive type approach.  That being said.....

I, like many have commented here, do not enter any contests.  After a long hiatus from modeling (but still collecting kits!) while in the Air Force, I settled in to a new house, a huge basement hobby room, and was ready to get back into the swing of things.  I joined this forum and have had such a great time since!  The members here are awesome!  I can't thank everyone enough for the wonderful comments, awesome advice, and friendships I have started with many of you.  But once I got back into the hobby, I went to my first ever model show near where I lived.  I was so excited!  I took one build that I thought was pretty good.  Didn't expect to win anything, but was hoping to get some good advice on how to improve my work.  Well, I left it in the car while I went in and commandoed through the vendor tables.  As I was doing this I came across the youth catagory table.  There on the table was one lone entry.  A 1/350th USS New Jersey!!!!  I was blown away!  I walked over to the table and began checking this beauty out and was again blown away...not just by the great work done, but by the builder also!  Here was this 11 or 12 yo just beaming about his build.  His dad by his side just as proud as he could be.  The dad reiterated many times he did not help him..gave him advice when asked by his son, but did not help in any other way because his son wanted to do this on his own and enter it into the contest.  Now this young man did not stop there in amazing me...oh no, this kid had done the research/history of this ship!  He began to educate me on the history of the ship, where and what it had done in WWII, and what has happened to it since.  I'm standing there with my jaw open just floored by the information this kid is producing.  Here was a youth that did not pick up a video game, but took the time to build something, learn about it and WWII, and spend time with his dad!  Brilliant!  I was so awe struck.  Then it happened.  After being at this table for close to 30 minutes now talking to this young man and his dad, these three "judges" walk over and as they do I hear their first comment.."alright, let's get this over with, there's only one entry anyway."  O.K.....that's rude.  The three "judges" stop in front of the ship, start shifting through some papers and one says..."who wants to do this?"  and they look at each other.  What?  Really?  So they finally start looking at the ship and wow!  Was I ever offended for the kid and his dad.  They did everything but take a hammer to the bloody build!  A comment was made about what paint he used for something on the ship and the kid boldly stepped forward and told the judge what paint he used and the judge just staired at him and then lite into him like a Roman candle on how that was the wrong color paint, then how he did this wrong and how this wasn't correct.  By now the kid is in tears, the dad is ready to pounce and I'm standing there finding myself ready to call in an air stike on these guys.  Now from this point on it gets ugly and I will spare you the details of what I said and did... I will say that all that happened after that took place during the whole day, not just at the table at that moment and it got "heated" at one point.  In the end I reached out to the head of the show, took him aside and explained what I saw, what had happened after that and my concern for the shows reputation and the hobby itself.  Two of the three "judges" were brought over (the third mysteriously diassappeared) and were finally asked to leave.   Needless to say, I never went back to the car to get my "entry" into the contest.  Now I know this is an extreme case, but I also went to a show (about a year or so later) where I was looking at this one build of an F-15C.  Now I spent 21 years in the AF and my career was devoted to the best aircraft in the world...the F-15!  My love, my...you get the picture.  LOL!  Anyway, I know a little bit about the Eagle.  Not only her beautiful exterior, but as an avionics tech, I know how beautiful she is inside too.  Well, I'm admiring this very nicely done build on one of my girls and this judge is just tearing it apart.  I shake my head and start to walk away when he makes a comment about the radar system being inaccurate (the builder had done a super job of having a lot of the avionics panels open and the nose open to expose the APG-63/70).  Now he has my attention....You guessed it, My forte was the radar system on the Eagle.  So I slowly back up and listen to this "expert" tell this guy that the radar set up is wrong.  "They engage the static pins when the plane is on the ground so the radar would not just be hanging there."  Uhhhhh, what?!  I think he was referreing to the boresight pins.  In any case no pins are engaged while on the ground...unless the boresight pins are engaged to, well, do the boresight.  "This avionics box is supposed to be black not grey."  That's the radar transmitter unit you idiot, and it is grey!!!  So I lean over and am watching him and he looks up and asks if he could help me.  Well, I said, "oh no, you are helping me tremendously already."  He smiles and asks how.  I smile and say, "well, I wanted to judge a contest someday and I'm taking notes from you on how not to be an........(you can finish the sentence).  What?! He screams.  So in front of everyone, I explain that I have 21 years experience in the AF with the F-15 aircraft and everything he said is wrong. 

LOL!  Now don't get the wrong impression...this does not happen everytime I go to a show.  LOL!  Actually these are the only two bad incidents that I have been part of or seen.  And yes, I have seen more good things then bad.  I remember one show I asked this guy about a plane he did.  Something about the paint job.  He was very excited to explain how he did it and wanted to share his knowledge.  Very nice guy!  The cool part was, we got to talking about some other things and I told him how I did something and he said, "hold on!"  He ran back behind this table and grabbed a pen and a notepad.  He kept a notepad with him to write down all the things others passed on to him!  Brilliant!!  I went to another show where again, there was only one entry for the youth.  It was a wonderful build!  A German armor kit.  The kid was maybe 7 or 8.  Was it a perfect build...no.  But neither is my best model.  LOL!  It was a very well done kit for sure.  But they made a big deal about this kid and his build.  It was awesome.  The kid was so cool, his dad was very appreciative of the kind words and humbled by the attention his son got.  I even saw 2 of the vendors give this kid brand new kits as "an additional winning prize".  Very cool.  And I have seen judges that are very cool.  Comments like, "well this is not totally accurate, but man, look what he did here, that's awesome!"  Now that is a positive comment.

O.K., I've gone on long enough and I hope I got my point across accurately and have not offended anyone.  I agree with everyones comments and the only thing I would add is...I'd like to see more model SHOWS.  Drop the contest part.  Bring your build, pay a little fee to help the show costs, and display what you've done.  Then talk to other builders and learn something new everytime you go to a show and use that to make your next build even better.  But the bottom line is....do you like what you did?  Then I do too!  If someone doesn't like it...don't look at it.  LOL!  Just my .

Again, I really enjoy this forum and the folks that we have here.  Great people, great builds!

modelcrazy

I will post a build on here, if I built it outside a group build, and I feel it's post worthy. I can't get away with it if it's a group build, but I have some builds that just stink that y'all will never see. When I do post one I expect and want some critiques, this is why I have improved so much in the last 5 years since joining. Sometimes, like recently, I posted an F-16 build that I unrealisticly loaded with ordance (at the request of the person whom I built it for). I noted it in the post and was happy that the members who comemnted did so regarding the build and not so much the realisem of the subject.

Slightly off topic but just wanted to say thanks.

 

Yes, I once critiqued a build of a particular historical aircraft, built as such, and detailed and painted to the nth degree. But his load out was not researched as such and was highly inaccurate. Air to ground stuff where the using unit was tasked strictly with air to air, air to air stuff that was not in service at the time depicted. I praised the overall build (it was gorgeous), detailing (no expense at AM upgrades was spared), the paint work (excellent example of the artistic school) and everything else in my critique. But my calling out of the ordnance load out was apparently unforgivable. And it was not done as my sole critique comment, nor in a brusque manner. Ah well.

Simply put, if one posts a build online for all to see, expect feedback, good and bad. If the bad does not come, be happy. If it does, deal with it. Learn and move to the next one.

[quote Criticize the quality of the build, not the accuracy of the subject matter. [/quote]

[quote Simply put, if one posts a build online for all to see, expect feedback, good and bad. If the bad does not come, be happy. If it does, deal with it. Learn and move to the next one. [/quote]

If I may chime in, I agree in general with the first quote above.  Although I will say that I have a friend who is an older gentleman who is wheelchair bound and post-stroke.  His models appear as if the typical "enthusiastic amatuer" starting out has done them.  However, given his situation, it is commendable that he is doing anything at all.  He models for fun and to keep himself engaged in something positive and not go stir crazy.  I wouldn't critique anything of his unless he specifically asked me.  His builds are very creative and full of great ideas.  So what if the execution is not "show quality".  It still has merit and value.  

I agree with the second quote in the sense that if you put something out for public consumption, you are going to get comments like it or not.  Take what you want, ignore the rest.

For work I have to wear black pants and a dark blue, almost black shirt.  A drab, life draining "uniform" that I get paid to wear.  On my own time I wear banana pudding yellow pants and a pink polo.  Do I get looks?  Of course.  I get the same looks I would have given me twenty years ago.   Do I care?  Heck to the NO!!  After wearing the drab uniform for 18 years I swing the pendulum the other way as far as it will go.  It makes me laugh.  

Its 100% true. If you criticize, do it the right way so that the modeler has things to take away and implement. "You did a fantastic job on that paint scheme! You might want to make the blue just a bit darker though next time, it's a little too light." Or something to that extent I suppose. 

I post my builds on here with no fear whatsoever, why? Because I know you guys will point out what I did good but also give me advice on where I can improve and take it to the next level. If you haven't already, check out my ROG F15E WIP. I would appreciate any advice or suggestions that you folks can offer on where I can improve or adjust at the current stage. Like I said, I'm not that great at aircraft just yet, but I like the results I get so far, enough that I am happy to share them with you folks.

DRUMS01

 It sounds to me that the LHS in question will not be around much longer if that is thier level of customer service. 

 

No no, not at all! The owner of the shop is a great guy. He welcomes any and all and loves to give advice and tips. It's just those old timers who happen to be regulars and give him alot of business that were Hiroshima'ing the young mans work. The shop owner would have 100% told them to knock it off except he was on the phone doing an order with squadron. But the shop probably will not be around much longer because the owner is 74 and his wife gets on him all the time to hang it up and retire.

MM, I hear you about work clothes and non work clothes. I’ve been in one uniform or another since I was 18. I’ll be 54 in a few months. Off duty, I like my loud Hawaiian shirts... and some other brightly colored stuff as well.

As far as critiquing the quality of the build as opposed to accuracy, in most cases yes. But if a modeler puts something out there as subject A. They should do their best to be subject A. Here is an example, a few years back, FSM had an Avenger on the cover and a headline along the lines of “Battle of Midway Avenger”. Ok, fair enough. But the aircraft  marked as it appeared previously in its service life, with the red & white tail stripes, red center nation cockades, and not as it appeared at Midway, with those items gone. Now yes, the squadron numbers and Buereau number on the tail were the same. But was it, at that point, a “Battle of Midway” Avenger (the well photographed sole survivor 8-T-1)? There was quite a debate here on the forums about that. Even the mods on here had some say about it. I guess “pre Midway Avenger” does not have that same ring to it. 

On a related side note, perhaps 20 years ago, another cover story in FSM was of Avenger 8-T-1 at Midway. In that case, the builder took the old Monogram kit, did the backdate mods for initial production, added all the battle damage seen in the photos, correct markings, etc. and turned out a superb rendition of 8-T-1 as she looked after limping back to Midway.

Those know it all geezers seem to show up everywhere, just have to learn to ignore them. Since my modeling rebirth a couple years ago, I've had a very good experience with the "model building family", especially on this site, but also at shows. 

One of my other hobbies is shooting and the geezers seem to hang out at the range, gun shops, and gun shows. Respectfully nod my head at their sage advice, try to ignore the mothball and chicken soup smell, and walk away. 

A lot of good comments and thoughts here. The stories are probably familiar to all of us.

For my 2 cents worth. I once had a boss who was ripping my behind for something stupid that I had done. He noticed that I seemed to take it pretty hard. He stopped and said, "Look, I'm not ripping you because I don't like you or that you're a bad person. I'm ripping you because I know that you're a better Tech than you're showing me. Don't take it personally, take it professionally." That made a world of difference in how I handle any kind of criticism.

But now, I'm the lead on my shift and it's the 21st century, I've had to learn how give the positives about someone's work before I start in on the negatives. I use the negatives to instruct instead of criticize. I've learned to ask why someone did something before I say anything. Maybe they were taught wrong or made a mistake or they just tried to "wing" it. I also don't use my old Marine boss' tone or manner (I'm not a Marine nor am I that intimidating).

Biggest take away is we're all humans and we make mistakes. Sometimes by accident sometimes by force of habit. It's a hobby to have fun, learn a little, and grow a lot.

I would have absolutely lost it had someone started pulling that with my kid.  Probably explains why there was only one entry in that age bracket.  Too bad you don't have a picture of that ship, I would love to see it.  

I had something like that happen to me when I was a kid also.  Second model I ever built (old Monogram F/A-18 kit) that I had hand painted to make it look like a VFC-12 aggressor.  It wasn't good by any stretch but I had some pretty harsh criticisms of it.  

But it just taught me that I need to model just for myself.  So I am not big on entering contests or anything like that.  I just got back into modeling over the last couple months and just joined a IPMS chapter near me.  Of course I feel like I don't quite belong there because I sure am not a Professional modeler by any stretch.  

But my son is 8 and he is getting into modeling. He's helped me with a couple of builds and has so far built a zero and a Hellcat by himself (both 1/48 scale).  The IPMS chapter I'm in is doing a minature contest next month and he is building a 1/144 Avenger he wants to put in it.  I am hoping he will get some positive reinforcement from the guys there, but there is that fear he will get some of the same treatment that kid in your story got.  I just hope my fears are unfounded.

mwhit28

I would have absolutely lost it had someone started pulling that with my kid.  Probably explains why there was only one entry in that age bracket.  Too bad you don't have a picture of that ship, I would love to see it.  

I had something like that happen to me when I was a kid also.  Second model I ever built (old Monogram F/A-18 kit) that I had hand painted to make it look like a VFC-12 aggressor.  It wasn't good by any stretch but I had some pretty harsh criticisms of it.  

But it just taught me that I need to model just for myself.  So I am not big on entering contests or anything like that.  I just got back into modeling over the last couple months and just joined a IPMS chapter near me.  Of course I feel like I don't quite belong there because I sure am not a Professional modeler by any stretch.  

But my son is 8 and he is getting into modeling. He's helped me with a couple of builds and has so far built a zero and a Hellcat by himself (both 1/48 scale).  The IPMS chapter I'm in is doing a minature contest next month and he is building a 1/144 Avenger he wants to put in it.  I am hoping he will get some positive reinforcement from the guys there, but there is that fear he will get some of the same treatment that kid in your story got.  I just hope my fears are unfounded.

 

 

I wish I had too!  That probably would have made his day.  

Again, this is not the "norm" for shows I go to.  For the most part, they are really great folks running it and judging it.  You just get those bad apples that ruin it for everyone.  

As for your son.....enjoy the time building with him!!!!  That is what this hobby is about.  How many of us have posted..."I remember building with my dad" or "my mom got me my first model kit.."?  These memories will last forever and you should cherish them....not count rivots or look for seam lines.  LOL!  Neither of my kids have expressed any real interest in modeling...yet!  .  And that's ok.  There are other things we spend quality time together doing, but you have a great opportunity here to spend time with family.  

And be sure to post his build here too!  I think it will be great no matter what.  He took the time to build something and spent time with family...WIN WIN!!  

I try really hard not to give criticism unless asked for it...

awesome reponse about a hobby and it's growth protential as an industry.

And you left, and didn't say anything to the builder or those grumpy old jerks? Why? You could've made a diffefence by speaking up!

Two plus years and one pandemic ago, they're probably not even with us any more.

Bill

Loved your comments and so sorry about your negative experiences at those contests.  I have also experienced some negative experiences at my state's local contests.  I like your idea of a model show instead of a contest.  One of the best experiences I've ever had at a contest was one of the first contests that I had entered and another modeler had approached me to complement me and to ask questions about my Revell 1/72 Pt-109(which did not win an award)Even though it didn't win anything I left that contest feeling proud and enthused about my hobby.  Since the quarantine and after being advised by a modeling mentor, I've decided not to enter any more contests but will still attend contests to see the great builds and connect with some fellow modelers.

This isn't unique to modeling. Any kind of "show" activity tends to bring these sorts out with equally unfortunate results. I also do antique car restoration and strive for accuracy, but also drivability. I'm not a fan of restomods or customs, but I can recognize good workmanship when I see it and always comment positively when looking at someone else's work. I occasionally overhear somebody(can be any age) trashing somebody's car because "their dad had one just like back in 41 and..." I see the eyes sink and the wind go out of their sails, and I know the criticism isn't accurate. So I hang around till the offender walks away then tell the owner what a nice job he's done. I've found over the years that there's little to be gained by confronting the offender.

One thing that does bother me though is a custom that's registered as a 1929 Model A Ford when there's probably less than 10% of the car that's actually a Model A...

My .02; I don't critique unless asked for one big reason. Unless you know the builder personally, there's no way to know where they're at in life. Like the gentleman referenced earlier, they may have physical problems preventing them from doing builds we'd consider show stoppers. 

Other thing for me is critiques of pictures of builds; I can't see enough details to give an accurate opinion, so I'd refrain from anything other weapons loadouts or inaccurate markings. 

Beckyhead

And you left, and didn't say anything to the builder or those grumpy old jerks? Why? You could've made a diffefence by speaking up!

 

You are 100% right. Looking back now, that is what I should have done. But I was floored and my brain was broken. I didn't know what to do at that point because sad to say, I called and considered these guys to be friends and never expected such a lashing to usher forth from them. I mean I would often go to the shop just to hang out, with no intention of buying anything. It goes without saying I don't do that anymore, not like I used too. I guess not speaking up in the young man's defense makes me almost just as bad.

Reaper420

Now to the main topic of this, well, topic!

I was at my LHS the other day, just hanging out STS with some of the old timers. A young man came in, early 20's, needed to pick up a few supplies, but also had brought in a recently completed 1/48 Saber to show it off ( my LHS owner likes to display customer builds all over the store, to a certain standard of course). Let me start by saying that I was blown away (and a bit dissapointed in myself for my lack of skills) by his work. Paint was beautiful, decaling perfect, seam lines non exsistent, everything just nice and tidy with a hint of weathering. Let me jump back real quick, this was the first model this guy had ever built, I know that because i was there the previous month when he came in saying he wanted to get a saber and build for some relative, knew nothing about the models or manufacturers and had never built a model before but wanted to try.

At any rate, he did some fantastic work. An absolute amazing job and you could really see it in his eyes that he was proud of his work. Hell, so was I! New blood for the hobby already representing!

Cue........Old..........Timers.

"Well you know, the Saber your portraying doesent........." "And you know that on this particular variant..........." "the grime and oil wouldn't really streak this way because......"

Not once did they complement him on his work. Not once. Everything they said was pointing out what was wrong, or inaccurate. As this is going on, I'm slowly watching the glimmer leave his eyes, not to mention his heart and soul! I was disgusted. I left and went home. What became of the young man, I have no idea, but I promise he will probably never model again. 

We can't have these types of things going on folks. Lets face it, young folks these days just are not interested in building models, not like they were. We loose LHS's everyday due to the internet, and decline in business. We are a dying breed, accept it or not, and any and all youngsters and new modelers that we can get, we need! Just because it isnt 100% accurate or isnt up to par, dont criticize! Instruct, teach, show! Offer to help, give tips and advice! Pass on what you know and have learned. It will increase your love and enjoyment of the hobby as well as thiers.

This hobby is about building and creating what speaks to you and you alone. No more. Thats all there is to it. Some people seem to have forgotten that and its a shame.

Now let me just throw my soap box back in the trunk.......... 

 

First off, let me say that I do not and never have tolerated bullies in any way shape or form. If it was me personally who had witnessed this BS behavior, there is ZERO chance I'm keeping my mouth shut and they would've been called on the carpet for their negative nancy bully tactics. Then I'd have taken that young guy aside and pointed out all the good things about his build. Probably would've also told him to not pay any attention to a bunch a jerks who probably can't build anymore so sit around like heckle and jeckle just beatin their gums.

Jerks like that just tick me off.