Why did USMC Not Change Over to the Apache?

My last word on the Cobra, not bad for a gunship only meant to be "interim"

Amen, G'dad!
Interim my big toe!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Cobrahistorian John, Yep, you're right. The opening shots of ODS were fired by the Apaches of 1-101st Aviation. They were led by USAF Pave Lows because at that point, the Apache wasn't equipped with GPS and the '53s were. They flew at 50 feet and 30 knots for a ridiculous amount of time so they could achieve total surprise, otherwise their chances of being detected went through the roof and the mission would fail. The mission was led by then-Lieutenant Colonel (now LTGEN) Dick Cody and the mission is related well in the book "Lightning in the Storm".

Don't forget then-Lt Col Rich Comer (now Maj Gen Comer) who led the PAVELOWS that night.

Pavejon,

Roger that, and welcome to the Helo forum!

Thanks.

Wow! I just decided to go back through this thread and I was amazed at all of the info out there! It is amazing to see two aircraft, designed for different missions, now overlaping into eachother's primary roll. The Army is learning from the tactical lessons of the Marines, and the Marines are realizing the they need some additional capability in their airframes. The American military is a complex machine but the end result is always the same. No matter which branch does it, regardless of equipment or unit type, we win in the end. We have the best fighting force in the world and I am proud to be a part of it.

Mac

i have to say that i personally love the apache it has saved my bacon numerous times it is a sneaky bird on the other hand i could always hear the cobras coming for miles people that have heard them know what im talking about

both are great machines but i will go with the apache

sgtkopp

After seeing both of these helicopters in action in Afghanistan, i would have to say that the Cobra is the better of the two. The Apache is defiantely requires more maintenance time and more times than not they were down for something and the Cobras had to pick up the slack. Working with the Army while we were deployed over there was a real eye opener. They were always more interested in what our Cobras could do than what their Apaches did

you would get a mishmash that wouldn't fly very well, and nobody would want it...
How do Kiowa's mix in? they are scouts right? they have weapons...

Well Rockythegoat, you have probably gotten some of the best info from some of these guys..but Im still going to throw my 2 cents in..I agree with ahiwsnake that cost is definitely a factor, and someone else mentioned that the Marines dont like change, which I have seen first hand myself, especially if something works. When I was in Iraq I would talk to alot of the guys like ah1wsnake who would keep the cobras flying. The cobra is a solid, reliable bird. Just about everybug has been worked out of it. It fits well on ships which is a factor. I was told by a cobra airframes guy from Hmla 169 that many of their birds have been around since the vietnam era..at least the airframes..everything else has been updated/replaced over the years...Ah1wsnake can probably confirm or deny that....Its definitely a very formidable machine. Its a bad mutha..

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mikeym_us the National guard unit we have which is 3 hours away from where I live still fly the old cobra's the only newer airframe they had was the Kiowa I dont even know if they ever got the AH-64's and with everything else going on with the Army and the Marines they always had to call in the Airforce to save their bacon with their A-10's and AC-130 Specter Gunships.

1st of all we do not like to call the Airforce for air suport we call for AH-1W and F-18D's. And if Marine Air is not on station then and only then we call the Air force. Lets talk about the 3 CH-53e's that the Air Force killed in Afgan.

Actually, the Marine grunt doesn't call for anyone specifically and really doesn't have too much say in what platform he gets. He (his FAC, Air Officer, or JTAC) puts in a request for air support. What gets provided and responds depends on what's available and what gets routed by the DASC or TACC. The Marine on the ground doesn't get much choice or say in that. The other day we had F-16's and AH-1W's respond to the same call. Both did a wonderful job and I'm sure the grunts were happy to have either or. Same with MEDEVAC/CASEVAC. Injured get carried by Army H-60s and Marine Phrogs. Both are doing a great job and I'm sure the guys bleeding in the back aren't very parochial about who evacs them.

If you are talking about the incident where the B-52's dropped on the CH-53E's that was not in Afghanistan and while tragic, is no reason to condemn an entire service. I have controlled plenty of air and have been personally bombed by Marine air. I hate to sound placid but that stuff happens.

As far as who is better and what you would take for a particular instance; it all depends on the situation. As a Cobra guy I'm extremely biased but but permit me an analogy: We have two kinds of bottled water in Iraq, Mossn and Nestle. The taste of the Mossn sucks but it comes in bigger bottles. Sitting in garrison which one I choose depends on whether I have anything to add to it for flavor, whether I can drink it all in one sitting, etc. Out in the middle of the desert I'm going to be pickled tink to have either.

Well beav, I can honestly say that in over 6 months in Iraq I didnt see 1 kiowa. That thing is not suited for the mission there. If your thinking of the AH/MH/OH-6 "Little Bird" helicopters, they are being used in limited numbers by special ops guys. But even those arent suited for the day to day ops there. The Cobras there are usually paired with UH1N Hueys when they go out on missions. The Huey like the Cobra has been around along time and is extremely reliable. It is also very versatile and can be used for many different roles. It can be outfitted with rockets as well as door guns. I have seen it with M240G machine guns and with the Mini Guns. Most guys preferred the Mini Guns which was definitely the most popular door mounted weapons system. So it can really pack a punch on its own. The Huey can also carry personnel to be inserted or picked up. Well anyway, the Cobra and the Huey are a match made in heaven. They work very well together and I cant see the Marines going with anything different. They dont need to. This works.

That's kinda funny - you not seeing a single OH-58D. Seems like every time I turn on the news, and there's new footage of a Kiowa either flying in the background or (sadly) shot down. Cobrahistorian has sent me pix of them in theater and they were used over Apaches when the two Hussein boys made their last stand. Jon told me why they were used instead of Apaches - I'll have to try to look that up later

I've only seen one pic of AH-6J Little Birds in Iraq:


I'm waiting on a magazine article from Cobrahistorian about their use over there - not holding my breath; it'll be a month since he's away at Ft. Lewis right now. But you're right - those have a specific task, and that's to support the SOF dudes, not day-to-day CAS

Trigger, perhaps it had to do with where I was and that I was on an air station dominated by Marine Air. But we were the hub for aircraft ops for every service. We had alot of Army squadrons (Blackhawks) and we did see Apaches. It could be that there werent any squadrons of Kiowas deployed in my area. But I cant imagine that they are being used in any great numbers.

QUOTE: Originally posted by supercobra Actually, the Marine grunt doesn't call for anyone specifically and really doesn't have too much say in what platform he gets. He (his FAC, Air Officer, or JTAC) puts in a request for air support. What gets provided and responds depends on what's available and what gets routed by the DASC or TACC. The Marine on the ground doesn't get much choice or say in that. The other day we had F-16's and AH-1W's respond to the same call. Both did a wonderful job and I'm sure the grunts were happy to have either or. Same with MEDEVAC/CASEVAC. Injured get carried by Army H-60s and Marine Phrogs. Both are doing a great job and I'm sure the guys bleeding in the back aren't very parochial about who evacs them. If you are talking about the incident where the B-52's dropped on the CH-53E's that was not in Afghanistan and while tragic, is no reason to condemn an entire service. I have controlled plenty of air and have been personally bombed by Marine air. I hate to sound placid but that stuff happens. As far as who is better and what you would take for a particular instance; it all depends on the situation. As a Cobra guy I'm extremely biased but but permit me an analogy: We have two kinds of bottled water in Iraq, Mossn and Nestle. The taste of the Mossn sucks but it comes in bigger bottles. Sitting in garrison which one I choose depends on whether I have anything to add to it for flavor, whether I can drink it all in one sitting, etc. Out in the middle of the desert I'm going to be pickled tink to have either.

You are right the B-52 and the Shitter thing was not in Afgan it was in Africa.

Now what did I say If we can not get marine air then we call the Air Force. Because If they are Marines on the ground there Marines in air.

I'm a Phrog guy, and in OIf 1 I was in HMM-268 and picked up Army, Marines and Navy guys for CASEVAC. When the Army would not go in to get'em out. I have a Capt that just got of a FAC and he and the Grunts did not like the Air Force to give them air support, he about got killed by them every time they cam in. I know chit happens, but when the Air Force is all you can get, use it.

Marine air is by far the best at Air to ground air support. In my eyes.

Im just saying Marines prefer Marines.

Yes, I agree with you Marines would prefer Marines Air if they have a choice. I don't believe in generalities that everything else sucks though - especially when those guys are risking their lifes to save Marines. Are you sure that "the Army would not go in and get 'em out."? Maybe it wasn't assigned to them or they didn't have anyone available. Do you under stand the difference between CASEVAC and MEDEVAC? Unitl recently the Army hadn't been getting assigned to do the CASEVAC missions; those were specifically assigned to the Phrogs. The Army does mainly MEDEVAC. However, yesterday I escorted an Army H-60 doing CASEVAC and he lauched in dog crap vis and did an excellent job. Also, I really don't believe that FAC you know "about got killed by them (Air Force) every time they came in." If he did, I'm wondering if he needs to go back to FAC (TACP) school.

Enough on this crap. I stayed out of this blue on blue thread of Apache vs Cobra because as a Marine Cobra pilot I didn't think I could remain unbiased and now I find that I'm actually coming to defend the Army. Since I escort them quite a bit out here maybe I'm just doing my job.

On to some modelling related info. Below is a picture of the AH-1W in its latest configuration. Notice that the 2nd stage exhaust fairing is removed (as depicted on the Italeri Cobras rather than faired as on the MCR/Academy). Also note the new 3rd stage fairing covering the exhaust stack.

Supercobra, is this new exhaust fairing just making it onto birds? Ive looked at some pics I took in Iraq and those birds had the old style. I only left in March..its possible I didnt notice the change, but its such an obvious difference that I dont think I would have missed it.

Devildog1rh,
This is new within the last month. About half the birds half the mod.

SSgtD,
I apologize for the tone of my emails. I wasn't trying to pick a fight or attack you personally. It's just that I fly with everyone and in support of everyone and I've develpoed some good interservice relationships and hate to see everyone take the blame for a few knuckleheads (which every branch has).

QUOTE: Originally posted by supercobra Devildog1rh, This is new within the last month. About half the birds half the mod. SSgtD, I apologize for the tone of my emails. I wasn't trying to pick a fight or attack you personally. It's just that I fly with everyone and in support of everyone and I've develpoed some good interservice relationships and hate to see everyone take the blame for a few knuckleheads (which every branch has).

I know sir, I fly with everyone to, but I'm a Marine as are you. And you know how that go's. I do not like the Air Force or the Army. More the Army for not going in to get there guys out, because It was a hot L.Z. that just pissed me off.

What Squadron are you with?

I knew this would happen and this thread would devolve with somebody dogging another service, it was already setup for failure by being called Apache vs. Cobra. I guess I'll add to the downward spiral.
Medevac pilot's do not have the authority to turn down missions, nor would they wish to. When I was a pilot flying MEDEVAC, it was treated as a sacred duty to get ambulatory cases out and would of done everything in my power to find a way to accomplish the mission. Only an O-6 or higher has the authority to redirect missions to what he/she feels is the best use of MEDEVAC. Until recently CASEVAC, was not tasked to Medical Ambulance COmpany's as we evac'd out the more serious cases, walking wounded would be evac'd in the first available helicopter. Perhaps the controlling authority felt that the marines wounded were non ambulatory, hence not high on the priority. I don't know, neither do you SSGTD, unless you also crew hawks too or were in the medical TOC during all this.
Medevac is a theater level asset, and in limited quantity, nor do the aircraft have the room/capacity for all wounded, ambulatory or non-ambulatory. We have have our slicks that get tasked to handle the CASEVAC, but demand permitting, MEDEVAC will perform it. But like in the Swedish Helicopter crash thread, you presume to know all there is about helicopter flying and in your expertise in watching a 3 minute video can tell exactly what is going on in that pilot's head and that Hoplite. And now you are making assumptions from your extensive experience as a PHROG CREW MEMBER that you know Army Medevac procedures, and now dislike us for something that you cooked up in your head, i.e that we're cowards for not landing and getting wounded. Do the other marines that serve honorably and post to this thread, don't make them look like the fool you do.

For me, the Cobra is more like a Sexy model sleek and curvy and the Apache is more like a female body builder on steroids
Ch

Supercobra,
Thanks for the info on the exhaust fairing sir. Maybe Ill see you someday on a FARP somewhere. Semper Fi !

QUOTE: Originally posted by mscottholt I knew this would happen and this thread would devolve with somebody dogging another service, it was already setup for failure by being called Apache vs. Cobra. I guess I'll add to the downward spiral. Medevac pilot's do not have the authority to turn down missions, nor would they wish to. When I was a pilot flying MEDEVAC, it was treated as a sacred duty to get ambulatory cases out and would of done everything in my power to find a way to accomplish the mission. Only an O-6 or higher has the authority to redirect missions to what he/she feels is the best use of MEDEVAC. Until recently CASEVAC, was not tasked to Medical Ambulance COmpany's as we evac'd out the more serious cases, walking wounded would be evac'd in the first available helicopter. Perhaps the controlling authority felt that the marines wounded were non ambulatory, hence not high on the priority. I don't know, neither do you SSGTD, unless you also crew hawks too or were in the medical TOC during all this. Medevac is a theater level asset, and in limited quantity, nor do the aircraft have the room/capacity for all wounded, ambulatory or non-ambulatory. We have have our slicks that get tasked to handle the CASEVAC, but demand permitting, MEDEVAC will perform it. But like in the Swedish Helicopter crash thread, you presume to know all there is about helicopter flying and in your expertise in watching a 3 minute video can tell exactly what is going on in that pilot's head and that Hoplite. And now you are making assumptions from your extensive experience as a PHROG CREW MEMBER that you know Army Medevac procedures, and now dislike us for something that you cooked up in your head, i.e that we're cowards for not landing and getting wounded. Do the other marines that serve honorably and post to this thread, don't make them look like the fool you do.

FIRST OFF, YOU ARE CALLING ME A LIRE. AND I DO NOT APPRECIATE THAT, MY NAME IS NOT JOHN KERRY.
YOU CAN GET A HOLD OF OLLIE NORTH HE WAS ON MY PLANE THAT DAY, AND HE WAS PISSED MORE THAN USE. I DID NOT HEAR WHAT OLLI SID TO YOUR ARMY BROTHER, WHEN WE GOT BACK BUT IM SURE IT WAS NOT NICE.

ALL I KNOW IS YOUR BELOVED ARMY H-60 CREW, "WE ARE IN CREW DAY AND THAT IS A HOT L.Z WE ARE NOT GOING IN."

SECOND I AM A CDIQAR, WITH A A&P LICENSE. I KNOW WHAT THE HELL IM TALKING ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO A HELICOPTER FLYING.

Okay, everybody, let's all sit back, have a cold one and smoke 'em if you got 'em. (I don't anymore, I quit. Smoking, that is. Still have a stogie now and then, but I digress...) Last I checked, we're all on the same side, so everyone, take a deep cleansing breath. Hold it. Release. There, all better.

As someone said above, this "blue on blue" ain't helpin' a thing. My only goal in starting this thread was to get info on why the Corps decided on the Cobra over the Apache, and continues to do so. Thanks to all who replied for supplying the info. I found it very informative from a historical point of view and very good background info.

mscottholt: I see your point about the thread title. Guess a better one might have been: "Why did the USMC pick the Cobra?" or some such. I shall be more circumspect in the future, I do believe.

supercobra: Thanks for the pics of the exhaust on the birds. May have to give that a shot on one of my 1/72 birds. As for my 1/700 Cobras on my "gator navy" ships, I may forgo it! My 45 yr old eyes will likely no cooperate!

PEACE ALL!

I think you need a little PT time to burn off some steam there, SSgtD.

I'm so sick of the service rivalry B.S.
Marines always take pride in their own service -- as we should -- but then you always have the few "uber-marines" out there that feel the Corps can do no wrong, and preach to their younger devil dogs about the worthlessness of all other services. Pure crap.

Down in Haiti, not only did our unit work with Army Medevac, but also foreign detachments like Chile, France, and Canada. Think the "my way or the highway" attitude goes over well in situations like that? We all need to work together here folks, not bad-mouth each other at every turn. But there's always one.

Lastly, having a CDI/QAR stamp and an A&P license gives you outstanding credentials as a maintenance technician, but I don't recall flight lessons or stick time anywhere in that curriculum.

Okay I do have a question about the Whiskey. I know with the Longbow that the radar bird can designate targets with the radar, and the non radar birds just pull the trigger and the hellfire goes to its assigned targets. Is it possible with the Whiskey to carry radar hellfire and have someone else do the targeting?

I've seen pictures of whiskey's with the AIM-9, and read that bombs can be carried, is that true.

Thanks AH1Wsnake

QUOTE: Originally posted by mscottholt Okay I do have a question about the Whiskey. I know with the Longbow that the radar bird can designate targets with the radar, and the non radar birds just pull the trigger and the hellfire goes to its assigned targets. Is it possible with the Whiskey to carry radar hellfire and have someone else do the targeting? I've seen pictures of whiskey's with the AIM-9, and read that bombs can be carried, is that true.

To my knowledge, the AH-1W has no provisions for carrying radar-guided hellfires. The software and equipment setup for the avionics in the bird is for laser-guided only. That being said, we can still have one bird (or forward observer) do the laser designating, while the firing bird can remain out of sight with his missile tuned to the proper laser code, then fire it in a high-arc.
The Marine Cobra is capable of firing Sidewinders, yes. AIM-9 launch rails can be fitted to either outboard station, and let 'er rip in an air-to-air engagement. A targeting reticle gets displayed on the HUD, and the pilot gets the warbling tone in his ICS too. Those same rails can also carry the Sidearm, which is a radar-seeking (think HARM) air-to-ground missile that looks similar to a sidewinder.
As far as bombs, lol, I have seen a funny picture where some of our ordnance guys are posing with two 500 pounders attached to the stub wing racks, but it was just a gag shot with the bombs provided by the fixed-wing guys working on the same ramp. So yeah, we can technically mount bombs, but I can't think of any kind of crazy situation where you'd want to!

In a book I have, it shows a picture of a napalm canister made by Bell for the H-13. So actually dropping bombs MAY have been tried, but I see two big probelms with it:
1. Helo must have the speed and height to escape the blast
2. Accuracately placed the bomb where it is needed
Anybody out there have any more info on this subject?