Why did USMC Not Change Over to the Apache?

Yes, Marine Cobras (AH-1J, AH-1T, AH-1W) have provisions for carrying bombs. We haven't done it in a while. Every now and then a MEU will go out and try to talk the Harrier det out of a couple of bombs just to day they did it but I doubt anyone has done that in a while. I've only dropped one bomb from a Cobra. The most common one we used to carry was the CBU-55 fuel air explosive. Idea was to use it for clearing obstacles in LZs. In Desert Shiled there was a bright idea to use them for clearing minefields so to see how well it would work we set up a test area marked with engineer tape. We put CBUs on two aircraft. As mentioned, there are no sighting provisions. Lead flew over about 2000 feet and missed missed the entire area long.
-2 adjusted from lead and missed short. They scrapped the BAH-1W idea and we never tried it again.

In Vietnam on Marine UH-1Es they had a system called the HTW (helicopter trap weapon) that was two Zuni warheads with proximity fuzes on parachutes. Idea was that they would fly over the LZ, drop the HTWs, the parachutes would make them fall vertically, and the horixontal blast would clear booby traps and obstacles. I think that they were actually used more than just a few times. I've got a picture of the setup around here somewhere. They hung side-by-side on the tally rack.

Sidewinders are a little more ingrained in our tactics. While we haven't had much of an air-to-air threat lately we do train for it. We carry captives fairly often and have air-to-air in our training syllabus but we don't get very many actual missiles for training. I've only fired two Sidewinders in my career for training and have only carried them operationally once. One Sidewinder takes the place of four TOW or Hellifre and no one wants to make that tradeoff.

The Longbow uses a different Hellfire launcher rail than normal Hellfires and I "think" that there is some prepointing talk that takes place between the aircraft and the missile so even if you put the right launcher on an AH-1W and had an AH-64D painting the target I don't think it would work.

Thanks for the info. The army's OH-58D's are the only ones right now that train for the counter air role, with ATAS/Stingers, although thats a dying art and from what I hear. I like the idea that marines train for the counter air role and lament the fact that the army has the institutional memory of a gnat on speed, and will only go hard core and play catch upafter a Rooivalk or Hind-D shoves a IR missile up our...anyways.

Do you have any pics of bombs hanging off a hardpoint? I have a 1/35 AH-1W languishing in closet hell and I thought that might be an interesting weapon loadout.

Supercobra

I was told by a former Marine I used to work with that one of the reasons the Corps replaced TOW with Hellfire was that the TOW missiles were "flakey" when fired over water. On one training flight off the NC coast, a Whiskey popped off a TOW and w/o warning it doubled back and nearly hit the Huey photo chase he was in. Any truth to the TOW over water story or is he telling tales?

Thanks,

Just a note that bombs of any kind are not currently authorized loads for the AH-1W. They were in the past, but have not been for at least several years.

Supercobra is correct in that even though you could hang a Longbow launcher on a Whiskey, it won't work. The USMC has no plans to integrate the Longbow on Cobras since the Hellfire is intended to be replaced by the Joint Common Missile, which will have tri-mode seeker (Laser, IR & Radar). This will be integrated on all Cobras (and Apaches, etc, etc).

The TOW story may be true, but as an engineer who has done lots of ordnance testing, I'd say that would more likely be some kind of missile failure. If it actually happened, I'm thinking that we would call that a deficiency and not send it to the fleet with fixing it.

I'm not sure about the TOW over water story, but I do know that our CO firing one at CAX had his TOW explode about 100 yards in front of his aircraft after it launched. I suppose any munition has a bug somewhere along the line of thousands being produced.

Anyways, I just wanted to add that the Corps hasn't "replaced" the TOW with Hellfire -- not until the Zulu model anyways. Both missiles are still used extensively in day-to-day operations, and often carry a mix of both types on sorties.

That's what I suspected - it was just a bad round. I know electricity's a funny thing, especially around water, but I couldn't think of a reason why firing over the open sea would mess with it.

And you're right AH1WSnake - I shouldn't have used the word "replaced." I know better than that

Missiles can go crazy from time to time for a variety of reasons and from a shooters perspective it may looked like it did a 180 but chances are it didn't.

Firing a TOW over water affects the max range of the missile if the wire becomes submerged. It's not very much but something you need to take into account. Over water shots are rare though. While the TOW can be used for many purposes, it is mainly anti-armor (or used to be) and I have never had to shoot a tank on the high seas. Hellfires are great but TOWs really round out the load and can do some things that Hellifres can't. The reasons why the TOWs were not kept on the Zulu is the extra black boxes that add weight and take up space and the extra weight/maintenance of the articulated pylons in the stubwings. It was also claimed at one time that they were going to close down the airborne TOW production line as the Army was ceasing use and the Marine Corps can't afford a missile of it's own.

Hi all

Forgive me for jumping in this late but I have some questions on the Zulu.

Is there an official date for its entry into service?

Will the Whiskeys be upgraded or replaced?

Lastly, besides Italeri's Whiskey/Zulu hybrid has anyone heard any rumours of someone like Minicraft or Hasegawa releasing an accurate Zulu kit?

Thanks
John

John,

Congress gave the Marine Corps the go ahead to buy new, production line AH-1Zs and UH-1Ys. It was deemed more cost-effective than remanufacturing AH-1Ws/UH-1Ns to AH-1Z/UH-1Y s. Not sure of an exact deployment date for the new Huey and Cobra. It's a good deal for the Marines since that way they won't have to take "Whiskeys" or UH-1Ns off the line for "reman", and keep them ready for deployments.

We'll probably have to wait a while for a more accurate model of the new "Yankee and Zulu Skids".

me personally, i think the apache has some really cool technology. The thing that interests me though is its radar (lonbow version ah-64D) it can pop up behind some tress or a hill 8 kms away, itll have allok at the battlefield, it will recognize 256 targets, priotize the 16 most dangerous at that given moment and destroy all of them and itll do all that, in 28seconds. It carries 12hellfires, 72 rockets, and it has a cannon where-ever the pilot is looking and fires10 high xplosive round a sec.
But i have to agree that the apache has some difficulties, but some prefection will result in another model. The commanche??

sasarchiver

The Comanche is history maybe next time?

Don't believe everything you read on the Longbow's capabilities. Those 16 most dangerous radar returns might be rocks. Nothing beats the Mk1 eyeball and direct view optics for positive ID.

I've heard that some Longbow units deployed to the sandbox right now are removing the Longbow-specific black boxes. Those avionics are nothing but dead weight for the sorties they're flying.

QUOTE: Originally posted by 44Mac The Corps has always been the "red headed stepchild" of the DOD budget battles and that has alot to do with what they aquire. Wonder how much they´ve spent on the Osprey?

HOOAH 44Mac... I know this battle all too well. Im the ILS/O&S (Intergrated Logistics Support/Operations and Supportablity) analyst for the H-1 Upgrades program (PMA276) and fight this battle 3 times a year (Navy budget, OSD budget, and Pres. budget).

Seems like the USMC is always the one making the sacrifices and left with less and less of a budget. Hence the Upgrade vs. Buy New AH-1Z and UH-1Y.

From my experiences in dealing with the Marines that fly these boys into battle, and the Marine ground pounders....there is nothing like seeing a AH-1 in the sky overhead. Some describe them as Angels!

The whole AH-64 v. AH-1Z argument is really a moot point. The Army opted for the 64 and they perform fine. The Marines have had the AH-1/UH-1 a long time and are comfortable with them. I dont think you could convince a Marine to go with another helo (maybe a H-60 for a UH-1 replacement).

And as far as the Osprey goes....we have a joke here in aquisition land. The V-22 will be the FIRST program to finish its production line in LRIP! I can remember being in highschool seeing the V-22 in testing and saying "thats a neat aircraft"...and that was almost 20 yrs ago!!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dragonfire Bottomline...bad guys beware...if you're in a vehicle or tank...you're dead. If you're running...don't bother...you'll only die tired.

Are you sure you know who the bad guys are? I'm less and less sure about that.
Just askin'...

QUOTE: Originally posted by spongya77 Are you sure you know who the bad guys are? I'm less and less sure about that. Just askin'...

I think you're asking the wrong folks.
We're positive.

Bottom line is, no matter what the airframe, we've got some pretty slick pilots, aircrew, and techs flying an fighting to make the world a little safer.
To all combat helicopter crews -- whether Cobra, Apache, Huey, Kiowa, Phrog, Chinook, "-53", Blackhawk, etc:
Happy hunting and stay safe.

QUOTE: Originally posted by AH1Wsnake QUOTE: Originally posted by spongya77 Are you sure you know who the bad guys are? I'm less and less sure about that. Just askin'... I think you're asking the wrong folks. We're positive. Bottom line is, no matter what the airframe, we've got some pretty slick pilots, aircrew, and techs flying an fighting to make the world a little safer. To all combat helicopter crews -- whether Cobra, Apache, Huey, Kiowa, Phrog, Chinook, "-53", Blackhawk, etc: Happy hunting and stay safe.

Well said, Snake. Well said!!!!

QUOTE: Originally posted by spongya77 QUOTE: Originally posted by Dragonfire Bottomline...bad guys beware...if you're in a vehicle or tank...you're dead. If you're running...don't bother...you'll only die tired. Are you sure you know who the bad guys are? I'm less and less sure about that. Just askin'...

When you see little flashes of light and tracers coming at you, it's pretty definite who doesn't like you.

Take what you read and see in press with an open mind and a grain of salt. There are a lot more good news stories over there that aren't being reported back here on the evening news...a few examples...

- Iraqi military soldiers decorated by Marines for their actions while engaged with insurgents (an Iraqi pulled a wounded Marine to safety while under fire).

- Iraqi Air Force C-130 pilot doesn't even tell his son what he does to keep him from worrying. As a father he said that he'd rather fight today so his son can live in safety tomorrow (sound familiar, like a phrase back from 1775).

- Public Works (water and power) are more available and efficient than they were while under Saddam's regime.

- Death isn't the only thing coming from our helos in Iraq...take a look at this topic
http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=45194

I can see where your concern is coming from but believe us when we say that 99% our Service Members do the right thing every day over in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Snake: Oorah! Semper Fi!

QUOTE: Originally posted by AH1Wsnake Bottom line is, no matter what the airframe, we've got some pretty slick pilots, aircrew, and techs flying an fighting to make the world a little safer. To all combat helicopter crews -- whether Cobra, Apache, Huey, Kiowa, Phrog, Chinook, "-53", Blackhawk, etc: Happy hunting and stay safe.

Well said Snake!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dragonfire QUOTE: Originally posted by spongya77 QUOTE: Originally posted by Dragonfire Bottomline...bad guys beware...if you're in a vehicle or tank...you're dead. If you're running...don't bother...you'll only die tired. Are you sure you know who the bad guys are? I'm less and less sure about that. Just askin'... When you see little flashes of light and tracers coming at you, it's pretty definite who doesn't like you. Take what you read and see in press with an open mind and a grain of salt. There are a lot more good news stories over there that aren't being reported back here on the evening news...a few examples... - Iraqi military soldiers decorated by Marines for their actions while engaged with insurgents (an Iraqi pulled a wounded Marine to safety while under fire). - Iraqi Air Force C-130 pilot doesn't even tell his son what he does to keep him from worrying. As a father he said that he'd rather fight today so his son can live in safety tomorrow (sound familiar, like a phrase back from 1775). - Public Works (water and power) are more available and efficient than they were while under Saddam's regime. - Death isn't the only thing coming from our helos in Iraq...take a look at this topic http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=45194 I can see where your concern is coming from but believe us when we say that 99% our Service Members do the right thing every day over in Iraq and Afghanistan. Snake: Oorah! Semper Fi!

Don't get me wrong. I know the solders go where they are ordered to go to. (And I have vet friends who fought in Vietnam and Desert Storm.) It's just the more I know about history and the more unjustified wars the US start, the less I like what I see. (Not mentioning those reports where innocent civilians are blown up with these weapons in the Occupied Territories...) Do I like Saddam? Hell, no! But I don't like the other bloody dictators the US supported and keeps supporting either...
It just leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. I really believed this country stands for something great. And looking at these birds remind me of this. I started building Russian choppers...
Sorry for the OFF.

QUOTE: I really believed this country stands for something great.

[#offtopic
Politicians may make you question the fact at times, but this is the GREATEST country in the world!!! The greatness of the United States of America can be seen in the people all across this great land that make it all possible. Without the average everyday U.S. citizen, we would be nothing! Alan Greenspan doesn't make our economy work, all that he can do is change the federal lending rate to speed it up or slow it down, the people drive the economy. The House and Senate are elected by the people of this nation and serve at their pleasure.

We enjoy freedoms in the U.S. that others only dream about. There are some things that have been said in this very topic that may have gotten the writer arrested in other countries. We have the freedom to speak out against government policy, even protest without the threat of reprecussuions. We have the freedom to debate almost any subject openly (such as Cobra v. Apache). We can disagree with whomever we please and tell them so.

This nation is driven by the people. The people of this nation affect policy by electing govt. representatives that reflect their view. The people of this nation are the ones who spend the money that is the lifeblood of our economy. The people of this nation pay taxes to fund the military. As I sit down to dinner tonite, I will remember that it has been paid for by the people of this great nation.

I believe that this country still stands for the same principles that it did in 1776, the only thing that has really changed is technology.

Sorry for the soapbox
Mac

Mac,

Did you return to CONUS yet? If so...WELCOME HOME! If not...Stay safe!

Carl

My unsolicited 2¢...

1. Mac's right. For all out faults, this is still a great nation for those reasons he mentioned and more. Not every nation can make that claim. Nor would many governments or cultures (I seperated those two on purpose) allow us to discuss, debate and outright argue about policy in public forums. Trust me, that freedom isn't just unknown in some parts of the world, it's impossible to comprehend. If there's something that we don't like, we have the ability to change it. It's often difficult to do do, but in a lot of places such changes only come about via bloody revolts. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you've studied history beyond what our public education system calls "History" (Route memorization of names and dates does not constitute a history class. If history were taught in a proper way, more kids would be interested in it and wouldn't take daily 55 minute naps). I am curious however to know more about all these unjustified wars the US has started (if you want to discuss that, eMail me thru the site here and let's do that off-forum - the FSM boards aren't the place for that discussion).

2. I'm not comfortable about the direction some of your earlier comments seem to be heading. I hope I misunderstood them. I too have friends who are vets and I know people from the forums here who either have been deployed, currently are deployed or are scheduled to be deployed. I have a great deal of respect for all of them. Remember, it was the soldier who gave us the freedom of speech, not the poet. It was the soldier who gave us all freedom of religion, not a religious leader. It was the soldier who gave us freedom of the press, not the reporter. There have been and will be bad apples in the bunch, but I challenge you to find a profession where there are none.

3. The topic here is "Why did the USMC go with the Cobra instead of the Apache?" We got off on an interservice rivalry tangent a few days back that got pretty heated so let's not get sidetracked again. I've said my piece so I'm going to step down from my soapbox; besides, the dog is crying to be let out. Gotta have priorities...

Carl,
Yeah, I got back in Feb. That is why I haven't been on the forum much over the last few months. I have alot less free time now that I have to deal with a three-year-old instead of a helo.

Trigger,
The dog is pretty much a priority when it is time to go out.

QUOTE: it was the soldier who gave us the freedom of speech, not the poet. It was the soldier who gave us all freedom of religion, not a religious leader. It was the soldier who gave us freedom of the press, not the reporter.

I have heard several versions of this over the years and it is one of my favorites.

To all,
I don't know who originally wrote it, but there is one version that ends with "It is the soldier's coffin that is draped by the flag so that others may have the right to burn the flag." As much as that last phrase repulses me, I have to remember that the freedom of speech is one of our most basic freedoms and I have to respect the decision of the Supreme Court. Everyone has an opinion that they want to express, just express it in a respectful manner. If someone posts something that offends you, log off for a while. Later on you can reply in a much more constructive manner or even just let it go and let the mudslinging die out.

I enjoy this forum and all of the people on it. I have learned a great deal from all of you and y'all have tolerated my rantings and misinformation. Let's not let any of our discussions get to this point again. If it does, we should just let it die or even have it removed from the forum because we are here for information and fun. Remember everybody, it all goes back to the first model that you ever built. That P-40 was the most beautiful thing that I had ever seen. I didn't see the glue fingerprints or the bad paint all over it. All that I could see was the masterpiece that I had created. That is what scale modeling is really all about.

Mac

Remember seeing a picture in an aviation mag back in the early 70's of the Army testing Sidewinders on the end of the stub wings of a G model Snake. Wish I still had it

Mac,

A well deserved WELCOME HOME! I'm betting your three year old is finding all types of ways to wear out "Pops" now that he's home!

Hello All,

new to the board. Can't claim to be a historian. Can say I have flown AH-64As and Ds, both in combat environment (Bosnia, OIF) and can say that the first month in Bosnia we had a 98% FMC rate (I confess, we didn't point out every little thing that was wrong like we do in the rear, but we weren't flying Red "X"s either) and had a simliar sucess rate while we were in Iraq (with the Screaming Eagles).

As for which is better or why - there is no right answer, they are different aircraft and the services use them differently. The Corps, in my estimation (and I am not in the Corps so I am an outsider looking in) has always had that "sticker shock" thing going, and the AH-64 is expensive.

As to it's capabilities and limitation, well of course I speak only for the AH-64 when I say it has both, but it does it's job more than good enough.

As for shoot downs in Iraq, I was (as I mentioned earlier) in the 101st, and to my recollection, 1-101 didn't have any shootdowns. They had two burned to the ground due to APU fires resulting from an APU clutch failure, but no shootdowns that I remember. 3-101 (AH-64A unit) had a shoot down I think (trying to search my memory, I know they lost one, can't remember the circumstance). I had/have good friends in 2-6/6-6 and 1-227 (folks that did have a shoot down, and pilots were EPWs for a while), and 6-6 did get all shot up and all but one came home, and the majority of them were back in the sky killing stuff three days later.

Anyhow, anyone have any questions or busy building a model and need some photos of the big rig in the desert, I think I could help out there.

RIH

Welcome to the forum RIH!

I'm going to toss in my two cents worth here. On the original topic of why the USMC chose to stay with the Cobra and not buy Apaches, is Marine doctrine. Why did the Marines not buy M-16s in Vietnam for several years until the Arny had worked out some bugs? Why did the Marines not have M-1s to take to Desert Storm in '91(they borrowed some form the Army to use there)? Why do the Marines still have Cobra's? Reliabilty and proven effectiveness answers most of the questions. In '91 the Mairnes had M1 Abrams,but no way they could get there at the time, the Army had the deployment arrangements with the Air Force. The M-1 at the time didn't fit on any landing craft the Navy had, M-60s fit. Now they fit on LCAC's. The Cobras work. They work well. The Marine system is familiar with them. The maintnence and support system is set up. The training system is set-up. The Marine Corps is small, especially in comparison to the Army. To change over to a new system is very difficult on the Mairnes. Recently while at NRMCAS I got to take a look at the V-22 ramp and hangar. They took over a CH-46 spot at New River. Now the 46's are sharing room with other aircraft. Can you imagine all the maintnence considerations that would have to be looked at to change to an AH-64? What about all the LHDs and LHAs? All the maintence facilities on the boats would have to be changed to accept Apaches as well. Hence the AH-1Z! Beware the VIPER!

Randall,
Got a question concerning the '64's blades. When I was a '60 driver in the old MTOE AtkBn, the Apaches in the Bn didn't have foldable blades, but something was in the works from MD called a fold kit. Have they been fielded and does it make a noticeable difference in the look of the Hub?