My AV-22, a new type of "Spooky" or "Spectre"

Awood23

Member since
May 2003
From: Belgium

Posted by Awood23 on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:42 AM

when I first read this I was thinking you wanted something like the AC-130 just with VTOL capabilties for shipboard ops... now I think I have an idea where you were going with this and my first thought was "if it aint broken, why fix it?" Marines already have great close in support in the form of Cobras. Something that never occured to me though was Range and Speed... With MEU's switching to 22's as thier primiary form of troop transports they would be leaving thier ariel support in the dust. So the more I think about it the more Im thinking this is a great idea. The armarment is still up in the air... I like the idea of the miniguns. What was it that replaced the two minigun of the AC-130H to one minigun on the AC-130U? Couple of those would be nice with maybe one more alternate weapon. I still think the MK-19 is a bad idea. With more than 5yrs experience with it I can tell you its a fickle weapon at best, prone to misfires, not very accurate ESPECIALLY from a moving vehicle and has a very slow rate of fire. Something I dont think a moving aircraft would benefit from. Id take back my .50cal any day over the MK-19 if the army would let me. Think there may be away to attach Hell Fire pods to this baby? That would give it some punch and bang... but i dont know if they would clear the props with out causing problems...

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v515/Awood23/DarkSideBadge.jpg

"your' not trying if your not cheating" "no one ever won a war by dying for his country, he won it by making the other poor bugger die for his" 'never before have so many owed so much to so few" 1/48 Spitfire %80

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:44 AM

WEll, Now I gotta start building helicopters, thx alot! ..... Just kidding, but I am serious bout starting to build 'em, never gave 'em much thought, but you got me goin'. Now, where did I put my wallet?

Be good & have fun,

Bill

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LemonJello

Member since
February 2004
From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa

Posted by LemonJello on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:36 AM

Honestly, when I first started this, I just thought a V-22 would look cool in the gunship role and decided to build one. But I've enjoyed the discussions on role, employment and armaments immensely! I really appreciate everyone's input, it'll help to make this model that much better.

Some more of my thoughts:
I'm really leaning toward the following weapons, set in 5 stations from front to rear. 1)7.62 minigun 2)25 or 30mm chain gun 3)40mm Bofors cannon (why not?) 4) another chain gun and 5) second 7.62 mini. I feel that gives a respectable punch as well as being proven systems with commonality with current USMC weapons/ammunition.

I always saw the AV-22 as an additional asset, never a replacement for anything. Cobras and the AC-130s are too good at what they do for that. This just gives the MEU commander another tool to use, as I see it.

A question; For my sensors, what do I really need? I'm planning on putting a LLTV and FLIR/laser designator, probably a side-looking radar as well. Am I missing something?

A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.

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AH1Wsnake

Member since
December 2002
From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.

Posted by AH1Wsnake on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:54 AM

For sensors, all the normal APR-39 radar warning antennas and AAR-47 plume detectors. Maybe an additional radio antenna for dedicated communication with ground units. In addition to several countermeasures dispensers, how about a parachute flare dispenser for illuminating the target area?

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."

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Trigger

Member since
February 2004
From: Moooooon River!

Posted by Trigger on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:58 AM

Okay, okay, I get it I get it... Mk.19 is a bad idea! Ashamed [*^_^*]

I just thought it be cool to have something that made a really big boom when it hit since a 40mm Bofors may not fit. Is that so wrong? Everyone's talked about off-the shelf weapons, so how'bout a new, hi-rate of fire grenade gun, something that is reliable and can saturate an area with crowd pleasers but at the same time, be small enough to fit in the back of an Osprey?

Awood23 -
The speed issue is being addressed over on the Armed Escort Tiltrotor thread Para429 started. His idea is, come up with something that can escort the V-22 at all times. LJ's AV-22 is more CAS oriented I think (LJ, correct me if I'm wrong here). Anyway, Para429's inspired at least three of us to build Osprey escorts, each of us developing different possible solutions to the problem. Phil's is based off of a Cessna Citation, mine's based off of an OV-10 (relax fellas, I still have the second Bronco kit which WILL be a Bronco), LJ's is based off of an OV-1 and Screaminhelo... man, I'm not sure what he's cooking up. All I know is, it involves Apache and A-10 parts. To my knowledge, no one has suggested replaceing Cobras with Tilt-Rotors. We may be crazy, but we're not stupid. Mischief [:-,]

------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."

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Trigger

Member since
February 2004
From: Moooooon River!

Posted by Trigger on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:59 AM

Don't forget the IR spotlight.

------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."

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LemonJello

Member since
February 2004
From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa

Posted by LemonJello on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:27 AM

Nope, you're spot on, Trigger. CAS is the mission of my AV-22. It could be able to fly in with the transports and stay on station while they went back for the next stick/wave. In conjunction with the escorts we're dreaming up, they would free up the Cobras to maybe act more as hunter-killer teams with their own missions instead of babysitting the V-22s.

Trigger, with this build there are no bad ideas, so keep em coming!

Flare and chaff pods...how am I going to make those?

A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.

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grandadjohn

Member since
February 2003
From: phoenix

Posted by grandadjohn on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 12:14 PM

Have to agree with Atwood on the 40mm's reliablity plus the fact that when I was in the rounds for a/c and M203 were not interchagable. A new 40mm that is reliable would work though.
Rocket pods or Hellfire missles could still be used, could be mounted similar to the Commanche(internal bays and retractable). If placed along the lower edge on the fuselage it would clear the props in forward flight.
You guys got access to Italeri's 1/48th AC-130 gunships, if so you could scrouge parts from it or make resin casts.
Think you are on the right track, remember with in-flight refueling(maybe even without), they will go beyond a Cobra's range.
Just some ideas I had for you to consider.

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Par429

Member since
October 2004
From: Maryland

Posted by Par429 on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 1:38 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by LemonJello

Flare and chaff pods...how am I going to make those?

LJ, if memory serves the V-22 already has ALE-47 flare/chaff dispensers, although they may not be depicted on the kit you have. It has internal dispensers, two on each side, very aft on the sponsons and two more on the belly forward. You don't see them in pictures very often since they are usually have covers over their location when the buckets are not installed.

Interesting discussion on weapons, this is going to look great.

Phil

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grandadjohn

Member since
February 2003
From: phoenix

Posted by grandadjohn on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:33 PM

The area I cicrled was the part of the fuselage I was recommending. You may want to consider the use of stub wings in the same area. From what I remember building this kit years ago, that area should be clear of the props(you may want to measure to confirm). Also weapons used could be based on the mission(Hellfires, rocket pods(2.75 in FFAR's).
For sensors, have you thought of using the sensot pod propose for the Zulu snake, pilots are going to need something like it anyway and a second on the side could be used also.

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LemonJello

Member since
February 2004
From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa

Posted by LemonJello on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:55 PM

I'm staying clear of any forward firing rockets right now. That's what my tiltrotor escort will be for (If I ever get the kits to Frankenstein together). But it's something that I had thought about.

Some of the sponson (like where you circled, grandadjohn) will be getting some surgery to make way for some of the sensors. I've got at least one FLIR turret in mind to scratchbuild as well as some other cameras/LLTV system and probably another ball "turret" for a laser designator/thermal viewer toward the aft of the plane.

I also want to add a couple of radar bulges, one at the nose and another along the side, plus a couple more UHF air to ground radio antenna.

A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.

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Trigger

Member since
February 2004
From: Moooooon River!

Posted by Trigger on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 3:26 PM

The biggest problem with forward firing weapons on the V-22 is the prop disc. It pretty much runs the span of the wing and gets real close to the fuselage. We were discussing this over on the Armed Escort Tiltrotor thread (which shall henseforth be known as "AET-thread") and among the suggestions for solving this were internal bays, both underneath and on the sides and in the case of my "Bulldog" (when you see it, you'll know why I call it that), the wingspan is such that I can mount a station under each of the wings plus have a stub wing with more stations off of the sponson.

LJ - Are you going to use the starboard door as a window for an observer with an "O.S. button" for the countermeasures. I'm glad I ditched plans for my AV-22 (going ahead with it as a CV-22B - Sorry Sal, I lost the Marine decals!), yours will turn out a lot better than mine would have.

------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."

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LemonJello

Member since
February 2004
From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa

Posted by LemonJello on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 6:29 PM

That's probably a good idea, I'll have to enlarge the tiny window in the door so he could actually see anything. I didn't know there was one until today, as I was Googling for Bofors and chain gun diagrams as well as FLIR and LLTV ideas. Oh, I think I've got a perfect sized blister pack that could work as a bulged window for just that purpose!

I'll have to remember to add that to the "to do" list, along with so much more. I hope to get some more done tonight, and get a few update photos posted.

A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.

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Trigger

Member since
February 2004
From: Moooooon River!

Posted by Trigger on Thursday, September 1, 2005 9:45 AM

I hate those tiny windows too. So in preparing my MV-22B to be a CV-22, I just cut out that entire upper half of the door.

------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."

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LemonJello

Member since
February 2004
From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa

Posted by LemonJello on Thursday, September 1, 2005 12:28 PM

Didn't get anything of note done last night, spent most of it just puttering around with scraps to try ideas for the sensors.

I'd like to pose the forward crew door open, but I'm not really sure how it works hinge-wise. Barring that surgery, I'll cut a much larger window into the upper door.

Edited:
Here are some shots of the bits and pieces I've managed to get done. Mostly worked on adding some detail to the interior and the sensor package as well.

Here I have made a couple of FLIR/laser designator turrets from a couple of beads I found under the couch. Then there's a LLTV and on the far right are some "black boxes" for the racks I added to the bulkeads.

Here are the locations for the turrets, and the pencil marked square is where the LLTV will go.

The crew door had a tiny porthole in it, so I enlarged it so that one of the crew could watch for SAM launches from their blind side there. Interior shot as well.

A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.

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Trigger

Member since
February 2004
From: Moooooon River!

Posted by Trigger on Wednesday, September 7, 2005 1:13 PM

She's lookin' good LJ!

------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."

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grandadjohn

Member since
February 2003
From: phoenix

Posted by grandadjohn on Wednesday, September 7, 2005 9:22 PM

Coming along real nice

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Mikeym_us

Member since
March 2004
From: Kincheloe Michigan

Posted by Mikeym_us on Thursday, September 8, 2005 4:05 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandadjohn

The area I cicrled was the part of the fuselage I was recommending. You may want to consider the use of stub wings in the same area. From what I remember building this kit years ago, that area should be clear of the props(you may want to measure to confirm). Also weapons used could be based on the mission(Hellfires, rocket pods(2.75 in FFAR's).
For sensors, have you thought of using the sensot pod propose for the Zulu snake, pilots are going to need something like it anyway and a second on the side could be used also.

Actually why not take a page from the commanche helicopter and add retractable wings and place the miniguns onto that and they can be retracted back into the fuselage for repair or rearming.

On the workbench: Dragon 1/350 scale Ticonderoga class USS BunkerHill 1/720 scale Italeri USS Harry S. Truman 1/72 scale Encore Yak-6

The 71st Tactical Fighter Squadron the only Squadron to get an Air to Air kill and an Air to Ground kill in the same week with only a F-15 http://photobucket.com/albums/v332/Mikeym_us/

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AH1Wsnake

Member since
December 2002
From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.

Posted by AH1Wsnake on Thursday, September 8, 2005 10:26 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mikeym_us
[Actually why not take a page from the commanche helicopter and add retractable wings and place the miniguns onto that and they can be retracted back into the fuselage for repair or rearming.

...because this is an orbiting aerial gunship with side-firing weapons from the port side. Maybe you were thinking of the armed tiltrotor escort thread? Wink [;)]

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."

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Mikeym_us

Member since
March 2004
From: Kincheloe Michigan

Posted by Mikeym_us on Friday, September 9, 2005 4:05 AM

there is one problem with the orbiting gunship AV-22 that no one has thought of what happens to the airframe when all the heavy weapons go off all at once afterall the AC-130 is strengthened internally to take the stress but what about the AV-22 ? and and secondly the only best weapon on a small gunship would be miniguns since the AC-119 and AC-47 only carried mini guns. And with the Osprey's small size it would only be limited to 7.62 mm chain guns. Unless you were planning on modifying a C-5 for the Gunship roll.

On the workbench: Dragon 1/350 scale Ticonderoga class USS BunkerHill 1/720 scale Italeri USS Harry S. Truman 1/72 scale Encore Yak-6

The 71st Tactical Fighter Squadron the only Squadron to get an Air to Air kill and an Air to Ground kill in the same week with only a F-15 http://photobucket.com/albums/v332/Mikeym_us/

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Trigger

Member since
February 2004
From: Moooooon River!

Posted by Trigger on Friday, September 9, 2005 5:49 AM

Well, it doesn't look like the AV-22 will carry as many heavy weapons as an AC-130. The size of the airframe simply prohibits it. The AV-22 intended to replace the Spectre, but instead is intended to provide a fire support platform able to operate with the rest of the MEU from an LHA/LHD class vessel. It's a light gunship platform .

As LJ stated "Re: flight profile. I imagine it being employed in the low- to mid-altitudes. Anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand feet above the ground. I'd want it above a lucky RPG-7's range and out of most hand-held SAMs, but I don't see it up with the AC-130s. It's job isn't replacing them, but to augment that capability with the MEUs afloat. It could run out to the ship for reloads, maybe work in pairs so one is on station while the other is resupplied/refueled. My first thoughts were that it could orbit the LZ to provide fire support, or run parallel to a landing beach to give additional firepower as the tracks and LCACs come ashore... more likely is area saturation and suppression."

So to that effect, a lot of the suggestions for weaponry haven't been as heavy as what you's see on a Spectre or "U-Boat." Miniguns, Bushmasters, M230s, M301s, GAU-12s, M2 are some of the weapons that have been proposed.

------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."

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LemonJello

Member since
February 2004
From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa

Posted by LemonJello on Friday, September 9, 2005 11:18 AM

There would have to be additional strengthening added to the AV-22, and I'm trying to simulate that with strip styrene, but a lot of this detail will be hidden/hard to see except from the ramp or the new window I added.

I'm still debating GAU vs Bofors. I think it would be easier to make a 40mm cannon, but the GAU may be a more realistic option.

A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.

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Trigger

Member since
February 2004
From: Moooooon River!

Posted by Trigger on Friday, September 9, 2005 11:29 AM

Additional structural weight could negate a gun or two. Unless, of course, you upgraded the engines! Mischief [:-,]

------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."

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LemonJello

Member since
February 2004
From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa

Posted by LemonJello on Friday, September 9, 2005 2:07 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by Trigger74

Additional structural weight could negate a gun or two. Unless, of course, you upgraded the engines!

It never ends, does it? If you get better/bigger engines, they'll want to put more guns on it! But I'll write it off on the AV-22 SLEP that will be planned for 2020 or so to make them all into "B" models Evil [}:)]

A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.

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Trigger

Member since
February 2004
From: Moooooon River!

Posted by Trigger on Friday, September 9, 2005 2:15 PM

Ehhh... that's easy to do - don't have to redo the nacelle - maybe just an extra bulge here or there to fit in the extra plumbing or beefed up transmission. Maybe sweep the blade tips?

F-15s have had engine upgrades over the years with no visible external changes to the airframe

------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."

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LemonJello

Member since
February 2004
From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa

Posted by LemonJello on Friday, September 9, 2005 7:50 PM

Yeah, I hear ya, Trigger. I don't think I'll worry too much on that upgrade just yet, I've got more than enough work in front of me as it is. Just a few more bits for the interior and I think I can start on the guns and their associated mounts and ammo, plus get some interior painting started. Maybe get the cockpit finished up?

A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.

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Mikeym_us

Member since
March 2004
From: Kincheloe Michigan

Posted by Mikeym_us on Friday, September 9, 2005 9:43 PM

how about 4 or 5 M-61 20mm gatlings. 40mm bofors are big weapons its alright on the spectre because you dont have to crowd a C-130 into a hangar deck plus the 40mm is a large weapon and the gun moves back and forth to move the shells so to fit it in you would have to cut down the barrel.

On the workbench: Dragon 1/350 scale Ticonderoga class USS BunkerHill 1/720 scale Italeri USS Harry S. Truman 1/72 scale Encore Yak-6

The 71st Tactical Fighter Squadron the only Squadron to get an Air to Air kill and an Air to Ground kill in the same week with only a F-15 http://photobucket.com/albums/v332/Mikeym_us/

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LemonJello

Member since
February 2004
From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa

Posted by LemonJello on Saturday, September 10, 2005 10:10 AM

I appreciate the suggestions, but I want a mix of weapons on this project. Maybe the Bofors wouldn't work, but a similar cannon shouldn't be a problem. I know there was a mention of a 40mm chain gun/bushmaster-type that the navy is buying. That could work in the Bofors' place?

Also, I'm limited to what I have on hand and what I reasonably think I can scratch together. I'm not getting AM stuff for this (other than what I already have), there's not a lot of 1/48 modern cannon out there and I don't want to delay the build by having to wait on an order to be delivered.

I like all the suggestions, though. It'll help me to make this a much more realistic "What If" build. Keep the input coming, everyone!

A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.

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Trigger

Member since
February 2004
From: Moooooon River!

Posted by Trigger on Saturday, September 10, 2005 11:48 AM

Since this is a "hypothetical" configuration, then why not a hypothetical new 40mm? Something designed with the V-22's cabin in mind?

------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."

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Mikeym_us

Member since
March 2004
From: Kincheloe Michigan

Posted by Mikeym_us on Saturday, September 10, 2005 1:45 PM

I thought the new 40mm chain gun was a new grenade launcher

On the workbench: Dragon 1/350 scale Ticonderoga class USS BunkerHill 1/720 scale Italeri USS Harry S. Truman 1/72 scale Encore Yak-6

The 71st Tactical Fighter Squadron the only Squadron to get an Air to Air kill and an Air to Ground kill in the same week with only a F-15 http://photobucket.com/albums/v332/Mikeym_us/

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"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."