Vietnam Huey

Sorry, no shots of a monkey harness.

Has for weapons system numbers, we never used them, we always refered to them by name or nickname. Only one I remember is the sucker that did in my back and it's weight

Rich,

  I'm glad you liked the pics.  I got my father's blessing to post them so you are welcome to copy them.  If you want to post them anywhere else, My father's name is Dewey Wilhite and he was with the 190th AHC in Ben Hoa from '68-69.  I'm sorry but I don't have any pics that show the monkey harness very well.  I have over 1,000 pics thta I have downloaded from the net of UH-1's and none show the monkey harness well either.  Perhaps one of our resident doorgunners/crew chiefs (Howie, Mel, or Grandadjohn) could help you out. 

Ray 

Ray,

There are some great pics there, thanks for posting those. Does your Dad have any shots of his "Monkey harness" at all? It would just add that little bit more realism if you could model the crew wearing these.

Thanks,  Rich

PS I hope you don't mind me saving these pics to file.

Grandadjohn,

  I figured that the " X" was for experimental, but what about the XM157 rocket pods (for example) which were definitely used in country, but have an XM number?  I must confess that I use the designations I find on the net and in books (mainly books).  That being said, Mutza refers to the XM156 universal mount, which was used on almost every gunship in Vietnam.  In fact he refers to all but the M-134 with an XM number.  I just assumed that this was standard for armament subsytems.  I just checked Drendel, Mesko, and Chant (see first part of thread for book list with authors) and they all variously refer to the XM-21, XM-158, XM-5 as well as the M-6, M-5, M-21 armament systems.  There appears to be no set standard, but all four refs have XM tacked onto systems that saw lots of action in Vietnam (were not just experimental).  I would love for someone to clear this up once and for all so I could say I actually knew what I was talking about!

  As for the forearm issue, here is a photo of my dad and you can clearly see the forearm in place.  In fact, all the photos I have of him as a doorgunner his 60 has a forearm.  I think it must have been personal preference, but I'll ask him and see.

Ray 

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Ray,

Sorry, it was Andy that posted it!  Ooops!  Friendly Fire!  Returning same! 

The forearm was removable (for cleaning on the original) and was not needed on helo operated M-60's. It was used to help the grunt keep from burning himself on the hot barrel.

Spent almost 12 years in the Army on Huey's and never saw it as an approved weapon, main reason was as Mel stated, vibrations and the weight were hard on the Huey. As for the system number, I have never seen it before. Think Gino posted an approved weapons list earlier in this thread.

When 50's were mounted at the unit level, they were on special ships only, such as Fireflies and recovery

I should have known to post photos for clarity so here is a pic of my dad in the armament shop with an M60A that he fished out of the Mekong Delta and refurbed (notice the buttstock and pistol grip charcteristic of the A model) .

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Here is a stock pic of a M60D (spade grips, no pistol grip, no buttstock, large front sight post) on the M23 mount.  Notice that the bipod is installed on the M60D below, but not on my dad's M60A.  Many, if not most, gunners removed the bipods since they were useless in a gun mounted in a Huey (unless, of course, your Huey was shot down).  Also, notice that there is no forearm on the D model (I know this has been mentioned before, but now its all in one place).  However, not all M60A's were used with the forearm in place.  The last photo is of a crew chief with a free 60 (M60A) without a forearm installed.  This pic is also a great reference for the bungee cord system favored by many gunship gunners.

Ray 

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Grandadjohn,

  If the .50 cal was never sanctioned for use in Huey, why is there an official name for the armament subsystem (xm213) as well as official Army photos showing the system mounted in Hueys?  Was it tested, but never officially adopted?  Of the photos I posted, three look like official Army pics, includng the diagram of the XM213 system.  

Mel,

  Not sure what the "bungi" mounted 50 cal reference was to?  I was talking about free 60s if anything.  I think you were directing that comment at Andy since he posted the pic of a "free 50".

  Ray
 

richgb wrote:

Ray, Can you just refresh my memory again re the difference between M60 A and D. Is the A like the infantry weapon and the D have the spade grips and is slimmed down somewhat? Thanks. Rich

Yes, you got it right.

Note, the .50cal was never sanctioned for use on the Huey, but was added by alot of units in the field for more hitting power

Ray,

I doubt the "bungi" cord mounted .50 cal was ever fired more than a few rounds.  The kick back would have been hell on the gunner!  The improvised mounts for the .50's were known to tear up the "hard points" on Hueys to the point they were deemed "unflyable". 

Ray,

Can you just refresh my memory again re the difference between M60 A and D. Is the A like the infantry weapon and the D have the spade grips and is slimmed down somewhat? Thanks.

Rich

Andy,

  All Mutza says is that "a soldier named Sagami divised this mount while serving in one of the first Huey units deployed to Vietnam in the early 1960's."  Remember that if you use the Sagami mount in your models the 60's should be M60A's not M60D's.  The mount was originally devised specifically for the infantry 60.    Ray 

I may be wrong but as far as i know it was a Japanese guy who invented the sagami.

I believe Sagami was an Army SGT and a doorgunner who improvised it on his helo, then others saw it and copied it.

Ray

Its interesting to me that with all the trials that were taking place in Rucker at the time, it was left to the crews already in Vietnam to adopt and augment an unsanctioned form of mount for the door gunners. I may be wrong but as far as i know it was a Japanese guy who invented the sagami. I would love to know more on the story, Was he in Vietnam, was he working for the US and if not why was it he and not the US military officials that responded to the needs of the helicopter crews under fire over in Vietnam. I may be completely wrong but for a Japanese sagami mount to arrive in Vietnam before the US M23 seems a bit strange to me.

I know that helicopter assault was in its infancy and alot of lessons were learnt in the field at the cost of many lives ( there is well documented reports of the new AH-1G cobras crashing in Vietnam without having time to send a distress call, it was later found that a fault in the helicopter was causing it to suddenly vear to the side, if it happened at high altitude it could be easily corrected by an experienced pilot but at low level it was proving fatal). (maybe some of the cobra experts out there can elaborate more on this for me).

I wonder sometimes if lessons will ever be learnt, will anyone ever listen to the troops in the field, did anyone ever see an official addition to the M60 to help stop the ammo belt flapping in the wind, that didnt come out of a C ration box!! Will it always take 42 years a hollywood movie and public interest to finaly get a medal of honour awarded to people like Bruce Crandall! Will there ever be enough flak jackets?   

Moaning over. here's a diagram of mounts for the M60 & 50 cal that may be of some use.

If ever a picture showed a need for mounts in Vietnam i think its this one

And another from B troop 1/9 Air Cav, showing Twin M60's on a sagami mount developed in the field by an inventive crew chief out of scrap parts (with a bit of scratch building i am hoping to turn my Academy heavy hog into this bird, will post pictures of progress when i start)

Some nice pictures there Ray.

Thanks

Andy

Andy,

  the segami mount was not a Army sanctioned system as far as I know (no xm number, for example).  Therefore, it seems to have been altered by different units with minor changes.  The one constant is that the mount swings out away from the open doorway and that the gun is mounted on a straight pintle post.  Note by the way that the pintle post has holes aong it's length to adjust the height.  The top picture in your post above shows the pintle post mounted low on a D/H model wile the lower pic shows it mounted high on a B model.  I think from what i've seen that the mount on the B/C models was the less complicated than the ones used on D/H model above. I thought this pic of the pintle mounting bracket might also be helpful.

 Rich,

Mutza's UH-1 gunships book has quite a few pics of the segami mount on Army, Navy, and Air Force SOF birds.  Unfortunately, I don't have any digital ones from the Seawolves.  However, since we're talking about mounting systems and 50 cals, I thought you might like these of the 50 cal system for the M-23-style pintle mount used by the US Army (called M213 system).

You've got to love the guy with the tie and dress clothes.  Anyone up for a gun run down Wall Street!  Hope this info helps some.   Ray 

Ray

In the two pictures i posted further up, the top mount looks a more complicated design than in the other pictures, it may be my eyes but the others look different, its just that if all sagami mounts are like the one in the top picture, scratch building one could be a bit of a nightmare.

Andy

Thanks for those, guys. It looks like the frame bends back towards the interior of the Huey. I'll have a go at scratching those. I fancy doing a SeaWolves B/C which had .50 cal mounted on Sagami mounts.

Rich

 Thats a great shot indeed! Thanks for it! Makes me wanna build another Huey)))

 Andy

Here is an up close photo of the mounting bracket for the Sagami pintle from one of my father's ships.  By 68, 69 my father's unit was using free 60's, but this ship still had the mounting bracket installed.  Also a good shot of the M-134 minigun and some of it's wiring from above. 

Ray 

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Rich

Hope these help.

Andy

oops.

Just seen the pic on page 3 or 4. Looks like it's attached to the airframe. Does anyone have any clearer pics. Thanks,

Rich

Hi,

Just going off tack alittle bit here.....Sagami mounts....where exactly are they mounted? Is it onto the airframe itself or is it the frame which holds the rocket pods? In all the pics you can't really make it out clearly...unless it's my eyes...too many 1/72 kits!!

Thanks,  Rich

Thanks Gino

Andy,

  Gino is right, of course.  I have both the 1995 original MRC frog kit (2196) as well as the 2001 Academy reissue and they BOTH have identical sprues (including miniguns).  The only real difference is the  instructions.  The original MRC instructions are verbose and consist of 12 pages with lots of hints, tips and helicopter facts.  The Academy kit has foldout instructions with illustrations and little to no text.  The MRC instructions are more detailed, but the Academy instructions are better illustrated (in my opinion).  Fear not my friend, the guns are comin'!

    Ray

 PS: another source of 1/35 miniguns is the Seminar UH-1B kit (there is one on e-bay now).  It is a totally different kit than the MRC UH-1C and the miniguns consist of 21 seperate parts!  watch out for the rubber ammo belts, though, as they tend to melt into the rotor blades and ammo sprues they are packed with!

I wouldn't worry about it.  Every boxing I have ever seen has all the weapons included. 

I wouldn't trust the guy who told you that either.  The Academy UH-1Cs basically fall together.  So he doesn't know what he is talking about if he said it doesn't fit well to the point he gave up on it. 

Thanks Gino for digging out all the pictures and instructions

I was sure you was right you have put my mind at rest now, its just i asked a guy from the group build who was building the frog what the kit is like he said he gave up on it as it doesnt fit well and it didnt include any miniguns.

I should of known better than to doubt you Gino lol

thanks again

Andy

as a last thought do you think its possible that some of the later frog releases dont include the extra weapons sprues? panicking again