Other Unusual Vietnam Helicopters. (No Hueys Allowed)

Pretty amazing, ain't it?  The one's I'm flying now are all around 17-20 years old.

Jon,

  I thought you might notice the PN when you saved the file.  It's 1843.  Yes, it's from the Archives.  I should have cited the source in my initial post.  There are a lot of AH-1 pics in that area of the Archive, but no more of that ship as far as I can tell.  Wow, I guess it never dawned on me that the Apache is 30 years old!  Thanks for the info. 

      Ray
 

Ray,

Without being able to see the -64s entirely, its hard to determine.  Sometime around 1978 by my best estimation.  The FLIR turret would make sense.  They wouldn't need the target acquisition radar at that point because they knew the Cobra wasn't going to be fitted with a radar by that point.  FLIR, on the other hand, is the essential core of the Apache program.   Without FLIR, we'd be blind at night, which is something they were trying to improve on as fast as possible there. 

Is this one of the archives photos?  what's the PN on it?

Jon

Jon,

  I thought it might be a SMASH cobra, but where is the  AN/APQ-137 Target Indicator Radar?  I suppose they could just be testing the FLIR. What time period do you think the photo represents?  Also, do you have any idea of the time frame when SMASH was operational?  Sorry, when it comes to Cobra's I'm just full of questions!

    Ray
 

Ray,

Good eye on the YAH-64s!  I believe that's a SMASH Cobra, but I can't really tell from that shot.  The nose turret looks a bit small, but it definitely could be.  No idea what the stuff on the wings is, though.  Gonna have to look into this one!

Jon

Jon,

  Do you mind telling me what system is on this cobra?  I thought it was kinda cool because you can see two AH-64's (YAH-64?) in the background.  Kinda strange seeing a cobra and an apache in the same pic don't you think?

Ray

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Ok guys, here's one for you.  It's a RAAF OH-13 with a Mk-18 MOD 0 hand cranked Honeywell 40 mm grenade launcher mounted in the door. You can see the crew loading the 40mm ammo into the special ammo belt.  I think this one is pretty cool.

    Ray
 

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Here's a pic of the Honeywell MK-18 on a tripod mount.  the hand crank can just be seen on the right side.:

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Hey, we get new Longbows too!  (well, some of em at least!)

Randy, you're probably right it was an LST.  I'd been told it was a designator, but now that you mention it, it does look very much like the LST on the F model doghouse.  In any case, here's another pic of that bird in action, this time with what appears to be a standard M272 rack.

 Oooh, look, we could start all sorts of speculation as to why the stabs are day glo orange!

Chief Snake wrote:

Supercobra, you're right. Most of my familiarity is with the Army series. The Marines have used theirs much further into the abilities of the airframe IMHO. It's outlasted the RAH-66 and who knows, maybe will provide the flyover when the -64 is put to pasture.   Chief Snake

Chief,

That could very well happen - it will be interesting to see which production line stays open longer - the AH-1Z or the AH-64D.  With all of the Zs now being new build I guess you could say that the Cobra is newer then the Apache! 

rotorwash wrote:

Supercobra,   Thanks for the pic.  8 hellfires seems to be the norm.  Did you ever fly with the 6 missile loadout?    Ray

Ray,

If by six missiles you mean the tripple racks - no I don't think Cobras (or Apaches for that matter) ever carried those operationally.  I have flown with six missiles (three missiles each on four missile racks)  -  we left a spot open because you couldn't carry a missile next to an aux tank.

Cobrahistorian wrote:

Hey guys,  Yes, that is, in fact a laser designator in the nose of that G model Cobra.  Ya beat me to it Ray!  The triple missiles were an experimental configuration (brought back for the Comanche, but it died with the program).  The center missiles are dummies while the outer ones have live seeker heads.  Those triple racks interfered with the inboard pylons, so they were done away with.  Plus, the Hellfire was developed sorta concurrently with the Apache, so they didn't see much reason to put the Hellfire on the Snake, since it is bigger and heavier than the TOW.   As far as Apache Hellfire loadouts, I've flown with six on board (all dummies or training missiles, mind you) plus an FCR and she handled like a pig.  Gimme 2 missiles and full pods any day!   Jon

Thanks for clearing that up Jon.  I guess this is the JAH-1G although I can find very little info on it.  I think these tests went in late 1978 just before the YAH-64 Hellfire firings.  I would have sworn that was an LST vice designator.  It looks very much like the ALT (AN/AAS-32) that briefly appeared on the doghouses of AH-1Fs.  I'm with chief snake in that a designator wouldn't do much good without a way to slave it (whereas an LST would still be useful) and I don't see that happening in that configuration with the size of designators back then unless they moved the aircraft battery. 

Supercobra, you're right. Most of my familiarity is with the Army series. The Marines have used theirs much further into the abilities of the airframe IMHO. It's outlasted the RAH-66 and who knows, maybe will provide the flyover when the -64 is put to pasture.

Chief Snake 

Since '99, 4th Brigade in Katterbach, was doing alot of self deployments. Of course we carried ours outboard, but the Apaches carried one inboard, I think right side. I'm not sure if they still do it. I left in '03 and since they've been deploying more to the desert.

Nope, the Apache community isn't really using external aux tanks much anymore.  With the internal Robbie tank in the ammo bay, it makes things a lot more weight & balance-friendly.  We've got either a 100 gallon or a 130 gallon option, which pretty much covers anything we'd need on a mission.

Jon

Funny you say that.  In 1991 when I was working at the Intrepid, I was working on their F-4N and designed a "what if" piece of nose art for her.  Since she flew with the Marine "Diamondbacks", I called the nose art "Snake Charmer".  That nose art has evolved with my interest in rotary wing aviation. Since then it has adorned every flight helmet I've ever flown with! 

 Jon

Jon,

  Thanks for the info.  I knew you would knwo about that one.  Sorry I stole your thunder.  I should really stick to Hueys anyway, but I thought maybe you had missed it in the thousands of photos. My hats off to you, Chief and Supercobra, you guys are the Snake Charmers!

Hey guys,

 Yes, that is, in fact a laser designator in the nose of that G model Cobra.  Ya beat me to it Ray!  The triple missiles were an experimental configuration (brought back for the Comanche, but it died with the program).  The center missiles are dummies while the outer ones have live seeker heads.  Those triple racks interfered with the inboard pylons, so they were done away with.  Plus, the Hellfire was developed sorta concurrently with the Apache, so they didn't see much reason to put the Hellfire on the Snake, since it is bigger and heavier than the TOW.  

As far as Apache Hellfire loadouts, I've flown with six on board (all dummies or training missiles, mind you) plus an FCR and she handled like a pig.  Gimme 2 missiles and full pods any day!

Jon 

Supercobra,

  Thanks for the pic.  8 hellfires seems to be the norm.  Did you ever fly with the 6 missile loadout?
   Ray

Having shot many Hellfires, Sidewinders, and Sidearms off Cobras, I know that Cobras evolved well beyond TOW.  In fact I believe the Marine Cobra loadout is more versatile than any other type Helo.  I know you were probably talking Army Cobras Chief but I had to rub that in. 

As for the picture...  the thing on the nose looks like a laser spot tracker vice a laser designator.  Of course for the validation (or operationally for that matter) you don't need an onboard designator.  AH-1Ws carried Hellifires for years before they got an onboard designator. 

The middle missile looks like it could be a dummy missile - just there for the weight.

I've got a picture of an AH-1J carrying Hellfires that I'll post when I find it.

Chief,

  Thanks. What do you make of the middle missiles?  It looks to me like there are three on each weapon pylon and the middle one doesn't seem to have the clear seeker head.  Maybe nothing, but that's what it looks like to me.  I think you may be right about the nose cap housing the laser.  Good call on that one!

     Ray

I don't see a thing that says you're wrong. Since the hellfire required a laser designator to show it where to go, that funny looking nose cap may house the laser. Wonder how the gunner used it. I don't see an obvious sighting unit. Maybe the laser beam was very visible at the range it was being tested. Sure seems it would be difficult during daylight hours without some sort of sight to focus on the target, a sight slaved to the laser would be the obvious choice but then again I never would have thought about a G model airframe being used to validate the system. Guess they considered the employment on the CObra long before the Apaches came online. Maybe that's why the TOW was as high a system the Cobra got, it was not intended to be Hellfire equipped.

Chief Snake 

Cobra Fans,

  I think this is an unusual Cobra, but I admit I haven't seen as many Cobra's as I have Hueys.  I hasitate to say for certain, given my recent history with missile IDs, but I believe based on the clear seeker heads and fins this is a AH-1G with Hellfire missiles:

[img]http://So is it unusual or not?

     Ray

Jon,

  Don't tempt me with tails of wide chord D models, post the pics, man!  Seriously, glad to see the job is going well.

      Ray

Marko,

Unquestionably those UH-2 shots are pre-1968.  That particular bird was remanufactured as an HH-1D and then an SH-2F.  I'm not sure if the two-tone desert scheme was stateside or not, but it is definitely a very early shot.

As for helmet mounted sights, there was a lot of experimentation going on at that point.  Remember, the Cheyenne program was in full swing and it incorporated an HMS.  I wouldn't be surprised if some test articles made it to Vietnam for "proof of concept" trials.

I'll see what I can do about getting the cockpit pics together for you.  The new job has me running in circles like mad.  I did get into the photo archives today though.  Some really good stuff.  Found a UH-1D with a really broad chord tail on it.  That was kinda odd!

Jon