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Other Unusual Vietnam Helicopters. (No Hueys Allowed)

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  • Member since
    July 2007
Posted by KrazyCat on Tuesday, August 7, 2007 7:42 AM

Jon,

 

It seems that this UH-2A went through a lot of camouflage changes-in that B&W shot it appears to sport a SEA style camouflage-pretty rare for Navy birds! Are You sure those ''desert'' camouflage pics are from Vietnam era?

 

By the way Jon, how are those AH-1G SMASH cockpit images coming up? No pressure, I just hope You didn't forget :)

 

And another thing: I posted this in the unusual Hueys thread, but it applies to this thread as well (I would really appreciate any input on this system):

 

I came across a very interresting piece of information while reading the 162nd AHC history: under 1968 part of the history You can find the following paragraph (direct copy/paste):

 

''In the October-November period the 162nd was chosen to experiment with helmet sights for the XM-21 Minigun system. Sperry Rand sent a technician over to work with the Copperheads on the test of what was called the Viper Sight, or “the Look of Death”. SP5 John Ohmer (armorer) and WO Dennis O’Brien helped install and test the system which electrically/mechanically linked the pilots’ helmets to both miniguns and the M-5 grenade launcher. Wherever the pilot looked, the miniguns would be automatically aimed. It worked well under ideal conditions but the dust, heat and humidity played havoc with the small servos attached to the helmet. The system wasn’t quite ready for field conditions. This was the forerunner of the helmet-mounted sight used in the current day Apache gunship.''

 

Here's the link to the pdf:

 

http://www.vhpamuseum.org/companies/162ahc/162ndHistory.pdf

 

Now, I did some research, but couldn't find much additional info on this Helmet sight system except that it was supposedly also tested on AH-1Gs (some sort of helmet sight system was  also offered as a part of avionics package for Bell 309 King Cobra in 1971). I guess this ''Viper Sight'' was a prototype version of the later M128/M136 Helmet sight system that was used on post-Vietnam Army and USMC Cobras.

 

Jon, did You come across any info regarding helmet mounted sights on AH-1Gs in Vietnam, while doing research for Your AH-1 units in Vietnam book?

 

Marko

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Saturday, August 4, 2007 5:27 AM

In keeping with the unusuals thread and my current interest in the H-2, I'll put forth these pics that popped up on ARC.  This is UH-2A 149761 from HC-7 in Vietnam 1967.  You can also find pics of it in Squadron's "Bent and Battered Rotors: Vol 3" after it had been badly shot up off the coast of North Vietnam.  Apparently, she survived the war, was converted to an F model and is currently at AMARC. 

"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
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  • From: Portland, Oregon
Posted by fantacmet on Friday, August 3, 2007 5:08 PM

Skypirate1, the bomb says Excedrin Headache 10,000 and then some symbol after it for pound I believe.  Pretty funny actually.  Just like some of the slogans on the bottom of our bombers over in Iraq, but they are not appropriate for posting on this forum.

Michael

    

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:46 AM

Marko,

  What can I say?! Bow [bow]
              Ray

  • Member since
    July 2007
Posted by KrazyCat on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:32 AM

Guys,

 

Here are some photos of a pretty rare and impressive verison of the Loach used by the CIA on a 1972 Vinh wire tap mission (project Main Street) in North Vietnam!!! Initial version of this helo (NOH-6A) was built by the Hughes under Army/ARPA programme and was named ''the Quiet One''. In fact it was so silent that it could not be heard when passing overhead at 300ft under normall ambient background sounds!!! The Army stopped there, but the project cought the eye of the CIA, who wanted to place wire taps on North Vietnamese communication lines. So the Hughes built an improved version designated NOH-6P/Hughes 500P and boy was it something else!!!

 

The heart of reducing the sound signature of the loach was a new 5-bladed main rotor with titanium hub and blades with 8-inch trapezoidally shaped tips that reduced tip vortexing (and by that the sound signature). Also a more powerfull -20 Allison enigine was installed with water/ethanol injection system that boosted engine power for take-offs. Tail rotor was replaced with a 4-bladed staggered mounting unit and 3.5-inches longer blades and was also mounted more to the rear to compensate for longer blades (some sources claims that main rotor blades were also longer, but I am not 100% sure of that). Engine and transmission compartments were fitted with sound-proofing material, engine intake was shrouded to further reduce trasmission/engine whine, exhaust was fitted with a resonator to lower the roar of the engine, ... All the gears and transmission elements were smoothened to eliminate ''grinding'' noises. The extra main rotor blade allowed the bird to operate at 66% normal rotor rpm (an important contributing factor to reducing noise levels).

 

Now, if You think this is pretty impressive, wait to hear for the electronic/avionics package description...

 

LORAN C and INS navigation systems were fitted inside two aerodynamic pods mounted on both sides of the chopper. OH-6Ps were equiped with Radar altimeter and Radar Warning Receivers. AN/AAQ-5 FLIR with two liquid nitrogen coolant bottles was installed under the chin. Some Infra-red spot lights were fixed to skids and fuselage of the Quiet ones to enhance performance of SU-50 NVGs worn by the pilot :) Of course, radical modifications to the cockpit were also done (still trying to find cockpit shots).

 

Not only were these birds able to take-off with all this load and two pilots, but they also carried two Lao commandos, who would place the wire taps!!!

 

The original Army/ARPA NOH-6A:

 

 

Close-up of the NOH-6A main rotor hub:

 

 

Close-up of the tail rotor (note the extended tail skid, which was neccessary to compensate for longer tail rotor blades):

 

 

A colour image of a CIA operated Hughes 500P in late 1972 at PS-77 (Laos):

 

 

Head-on shot of a CIA operated Hughes 500P (note the AN/AAQ-5 FLIR turret under the nose and how much smaller it was when compared to AN/AAQ-5 on UH-1M or AH-1G SMASH):

 


 

Here are some Taiwanese AF (RoCAF) officials examining the Hughes 500P cockpit (it was initially planned to have RoCAF pilots flying the 500Ps on the actual mission, but US pilots did in the end):

 

 

The last shot of a NOH-6P was taken in early 1990s, but it is the only I could find that shows the FLIR turret (at least I think this is the original AN/AAQ-5 turret) and main rotor tips in some detail (the larger nose mounted FLIR turret was a later addition; not used in 1972):

 

 

Enjoy the images guys,

 

Marko 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Sunday, July 29, 2007 1:00 PM

Marko,

  Here's another pic of the OH-6 rocket system.  I know I have other pics, but I'll have to dig for them.  This one is from the Army Aviation Museum archives, and It has no info with it.  Ray

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket" border="0" /> 

  • Member since
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Posted by KrazyCat on Sunday, July 29, 2007 11:51 AM

Jon,

 

I did some some research into SMASH and CONFICS AH-Gs deployment to Vietnam and I keep getting contradictory information!?! For example, in Simon Dunstan's ''Vietnam Choppers: Helicopters in Battle 1950-1975'' the author claims that both systems were deployed to Vietnam on experimental basis. However Mike Verier in his ''Bell AH-1 Cobra'' notes that neither of the systems lived up to expectations and were never deployed to Vietnam...Confused [%-)] Anyway I can't wait to see those cockpit shots :)

 

And a couple of images of a OH-6A 66-07915 of B troop 7th Squadron 17th Cavalry at Camp Enari, Vietnam in 1968; it was armed with XM27 minigun subsystem on the left side and a four-tube rocket launcher mounted on the right side. The rocket launcher was not an in-the-field modification but an experimental unit developed by the Rock Island Arsenal. Does anybody have any more info on this rare rocket system?

 

 

 

 

  

 Marko

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: Baton Rouge, Snake Central
Posted by PatlaborUnit1 on Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:10 PM

For all of you that have the Lindberg "Cobra" kit, the Model 209 here is what comes in the box...

David

 

Build to please yourself, and don't worry about what others think! TI 4019 Jolly Roger Squadron, 501st Legion
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Thursday, July 26, 2007 6:38 AM

Marko,

From what I've been able to discern, CONFICS never made it to Vietnam, but SMASH did.  I do have cockpit shots of the SMASH Cobra and will post em later today when I get home.  I'll be up at my unit in-processing for most of the day, but I'll see what I can do tonight... and they're color shots!


Jon

"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
    July 2007
Posted by KrazyCat on Thursday, July 26, 2007 6:11 AM

Wow guys! Superb photos of unusual H-2s and AH-1Gs. Please keep 'em coming :) I'am especially interested in some cockpit shots of CONFICS and SMASH Cobras. Do You have any info on wheather any of these Night Fighter AH-1Gs were tested in Vietnam? According to my references they weren't, but then again... The AN/AAQ-5 FLIR on SMASH AH-1Gs was tested on UH-1Ms in Vietnam integrated with the M21 subsystem as was the INFANT. Just to provide some additional info on the SMASH: the sensor pack included the nose mounted AN/AAQ-5 FLIR and AN/APQ-137 Moving Target Indicator Radar pod on the right outboard wing station.

 

Well, I got a couple of unusual or rare Vietnam birds. First a couple of HH-2C-a CSAR version of the Seasprite flown by the HC-7 Seadevils in Vietnam. It was fitted with armor and TAT-102K minigun turret for fire suppression. HH-2Cs of the HC-7 went under the callsign ''Clementine''.

 

 

And two shots of a AH-G of the D troop 3rd Squadron 5th Cavalry, tail No. unknown, that was used to test mk81 250lb bombs, October 1968. According to my info D/3/5 conducted several successfull drops, but the bombs would not detonate for reasons unknown (maybe the USAF provided them with duds Wink [;)]). Anyway, not many photos of choppers armed with bombs around...

 

 

Marko 

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 10:39 PM

Jon,

  You want Cobras, here's some Cobras:

First up is a repost of the cool bird I posted in the unusual cammo thread:

[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

As I said, she don't look quite finished yet!

Next, anothe pic of N209J in her OD phase. Are those teeny little things on the wings rocket pods?:

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[

A couple more CONFICS pics.  You probably have these as well since they were in the same set of pics as the one you posted:

[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[

Finally, another picture of the SMASH cobra, this one has a mini and a thumper in the turret instead of the twin thumpers your bird had:

[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

 

I hope I didn't steal anymore of your thunder!Whistling [:-^]

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 9:11 PM

Dunce [D)]

Thumbs Up [tup]

nuff said!

 

 

"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:41 PM

Grandad and Jon,

  I guess we're going to have to use those darn emoticons!Pirate [oX)]

     Ray 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:26 PM
Jon, I didn't think you were mad, sorry if the tone of my post gave you that impression
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 12:04 PM

Hey guys,

I'm sorry if that came off as me being mad, I meant nothing of the sort!  I was just kidding around.  I'd been researching the AH-2 testbed a bit and was thinking about posting those pics.  They're up for everyone to enjoy, that's what counts!

Now here's an intersting bird, just cuz you don't see many of these with the armament kit.

OH-58A 69-16114 served with HHB, 4th Infantry Division DIVARTY and later had a brief stint with D Troop 1-10th Cav.  Her whole time in Vietnam was spent in II Corps with the 4th ID. 

Jon

"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 11:39 AM
Jon, interesting photo's and I didn't mean to steal your thunder, I envey you and Ray for havibg the time to go through those archives at the Museum. Hope someday to get back there myself. When I was there in 68, it wasn't much of a museum then, just a small chain-linked fensed enclosure with a few aircraft in it. Our instructors always told us to go down there and see the old CH-21 since it was the only place we would see them. Went to Korea and quess what, they still had a whole company of them there
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:59 PM

No worries Ray!

That was said very tongue-in-cheek!

Anyhow, here are a couple pics, as promised.  The first one is N209J, the prototype Cobra, although not as you're used to seeing her.  This configuration was done in the early 70s to test out the TOW missile system on the Cobra.  From what I know, it didn't have any live missile systems on it, just mockups of the pods, sensors and gun.

The next two are my favorites, and as Chief Snake can attest, I'm a bit hooked on these two. The first is the CONFICS (CObra Night Fighter Imaging Combat System) AH-1G, which took the Huey INFANT system and modded it for the Snake.  The second is the SMASH (Southeast-asia Multisensor Armament System Helicopter) Cobra that took night fighting to the next level. 

 

 

Jon 

"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:23 PM

Jon,

  I gave you a nice opening to post those UH-2 pics, but you disappeared and Grandad put his up so I HAD to put mine up too!  Sorry about that, but it sounded as if you had Cobras on your brain , not Seasprites!

    Ray

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:15 PM

Man!  I get in the car for a couple hours and you guys steal my thunder!  I was gonna start off with pics of the AH-2!

Oh well.  After dinner I'll throw up some coooooool AH-1 pics.  Tongue [:P]

 

Jon 

"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:04 PM

Grandad,

  Nice pics!  I thought I might add a few others of armed AH-2's

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket" border="0" />Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

 Here's 9786 before it's Army paint job:

[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket" border="0" />

All of the above are courtesy of the Army Aviation Museum archives.

  Ray
 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 6:58 PM

Thanks for the new photo's of Big Mother and the additional info.

OK, here are a couple of Seasprite photo's

Tested by the Army in the early 60's as a gunship, another nearly identical model competed against the Cobra, but lost in the later 60's

Another testbed SeaSprite.

These aircraft were returned to the manufacter after testing. Please note they did not serve in Vietnam

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: Maryland
Posted by Chief Snake on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 6:10 PM
 skypirate1 wrote:

Randie,

Thanks for putting the "excedrin" thing to bed for me, i would never have got it. You have saved me from pulling any more contorted faces at the monitor trying to work out what it saidThumbs Up [tup].

ikar01,

I hadnt forgot the HH-43 Husky, Check the list Smile [:)].

Chief Snake,

Thanks for the 478th HHC info, Any rough idea on how many 478th cranes would be in use with 15th Trans Bn at any one time? 

Ray,

Great OH-13 shots and info. I agree it would be nice to see some unusual Seasprite pics.

Rich,

I dont have many cool shots of Skycranes but i found another shot of GrandadJohn's "Big Mother" with that bomb Smile [:)]

Jon,

Cant wait to see your Cobra pics. As ever, im always hunting for new helicopter video sites. Pictures are great but its nice to see the helos in action. I found another site and its got a clip of a Cobra becoming a victim of "Brownout" you also get to see the cockpit windows being blown out for the crew to escape! thought you might be interested.

http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/videos/playonevideo.asp?videokey=1612

And a clip of a Skycrane " losing it" for a second.. (turn your speakers down its LOUD!)

http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/videos/playonevideo.asp?videokey=393

There are loads of other Helicopter clips on there (some very sobering!) Anyway.. Enjoy.

Andy.

 

The cranes were new to the 1st Cav in 1964, records indicate 4-6 airframes were in use in 1965-66. As more cranes became available new companies were raised, the 273rd and 355th. By 1968 it appears that each company may have had as many as 9 airframes each. The 478th was split between the 1st Cav and the 101st Abn Divisions with 4 aircraft each. The 159th Avn Bn supported the cranes within the 101st Div.

 

Chief Snake 

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by skypirate1 on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 6:06 PM

Marko,

WOW!!!

Where the hell do you find your pics lol?? i want in on the secret Big Smile [:D]. Either you have a search engine over there in Slovenia that none of us have ever heard of,or you have insider information Wink [;)].

Great pictures mate Thumbs Up [tup], Thanks for sharing the results of the hard work you have so obviously put in to your helicopter research.

Awsome stuff.

Andy.

(PS. The OH-6 in the door mounted Minigun picture i posted was from the 25th Avn Bn and called "Diamondhead" i dont have any tail number info.. sorry. But i think we can safely say that we have a two-of-a-kind loach now).

 

While the rest of the crew may be in the same predicament, it's almost always the pilot's job to arrive at the crash site first.
  • Member since
    July 2007
Posted by KrazyCat on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 5:18 PM

Hello Guys!

I am glad to see that interest in the unusual has spread from Hueys to other vietnam choppers as well! I think we all eagerly await Jon's Cobra pics :) So, to give You something to do while we wait I got a couple of pics that might be of interest to You. First some addtional info on the ''Big Mother''. She was a CH-54A 67-18418 and, as previously noted, in service with 478th HHC. I found a colour version of the photo of Big Mother being prepped for bombing mission. The photo was taken in 1968 at Da Nang.

 

 

And a couple of rather dramatic images of ''Excedrin Headache'' on its way towards the target. I did some digging and apparently the whole idea didn't live up to expectations as bombing accuracy wasn't really good and only one of the four bombs dropped by the Big Mother produced a usefull clering for a LZ. Nevertheless, the sight of that thing going off must have been spectacular...

 

 

Now, from the biggest to the smallest :) I found a couple of pics of the Loach with the door mounted mini. As far as I can tell it is the same system as the one depicted in Andy's post. The OH-6A ''Borrowed Time'' was in service with the D troop 3rd Squadron 4th Cavalry (the Centaurs). Note the addition of M60 flash suppressors to the minigun barrels. Hope this pics will help anybody who decides to build this one-of-a-kind Loach.

 

 

Enjoy,

 

Marko

 

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 3:56 PM
You're welcome, Andy and thans for the other picture of "Big Mother". I have never seen that one.
Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by skypirate1 on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 3:33 PM

Randie,

Thanks for putting the "excedrin" thing to bed for me, i would never have got it. You have saved me from pulling any more contorted faces at the monitor trying to work out what it saidThumbs Up [tup].

ikar01,

I hadnt forgot the HH-43 Husky, Check the list Smile [:)].

Chief Snake,

Thanks for the 478th HHC info, Any rough idea on how many 478th cranes would be in use with 15th Trans Bn at any one time?

Ray,

Great OH-13 shots and info. I agree it would be nice to see some unusual Seasprite pics.

Rich,

I dont have many cool shots of Skycranes but i found another shot of GrandadJohn's "Big Mother" with that bomb Smile [:)]

Jon,

Cant wait to see your Cobra pics. As ever, im always hunting for new helicopter video sites. Pictures are great but its nice to see the helos in action. I found another site and its got a clip of a Cobra becoming a victim of "Brownout" you also get to see the cockpit windows being blown out for the crew to escape! thought you might be interested.

http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/videos/playonevideo.asp?videokey=1612

And a clip of a Skycrane " losing it" for a second.. (turn your speakers down its LOUD!)

http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/videos/playonevideo.asp?videokey=393

There are loads of other Helicopter clips on there (some very sobering!) Anyway.. Enjoy.

Andy.

 

While the rest of the crew may be in the same predicament, it's almost always the pilot's job to arrive at the crash site first.
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:46 PM
 chopperfan wrote:

 Cobrahistorian wrote:
Methinks I have some of the oddest Cobra photos around...

And ME thinks I am looking forward to them!!! 

 

And me thinks the same

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:27 PM

 Cobrahistorian wrote:
Methinks I have some of the oddest Cobra photos around...

And ME thinks I am looking forward to them!!! 

Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:17 PM

Jon,

  What about those UH-2 pics? 

 Ok here's some pics of the grandady of all helo gun systems, the XM-1 also known as the "Old Ironsides Kit"

It was a twin Browning 30 cal system designed by CWO Clem H. Womack for troop D 1st squadron, 1st Cavalry, 1st Armored Division.  

  Here is the documentation that acompanied the pics (they are part of a study on early helo weapons systems):

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

The following set of pictures is basiclly a walkaround of the system on an OH-13:

[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

The notes on the picture were there when I took the photo.

 This last shot is one of my favorites because I believe there is a good chance that this is the first photo documentation of a helicopter gun run!

[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket" border="0" />

Enjoy! 

             Ray
 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:01 PM
Methinks I have some of the oddest Cobra photos around...
"1-6 is in hot"
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