Red Tails spoiler

Manstein's revenge

And there will remain millions of  stories that will never be told for whatever reason, and  they never see the light of day; the Red Tails are not one of those stories---they have been praised and celebrated for years...and will continue to enjoy that light...ace or no ace...

Again, I agree. Though, if you listen to that interview with Lucas that I posted, one thing that he points out is that he tried for over 20 years to get this movie made, but no studio would back him because they didn't think thay could make a movie with an all black cast profitable.

So, even despite the amazing accomplishments of the Tuskegee airmen, there are barriers in the way of their story enjoying 'that light'.

bbrowniii

Manstein's revenge:

I can't think of any movie made about fighter pilots of this era that did not have the status of ace or their "score" (to some or all of the characters) as part of the story... 

 

I think you're right. Which probably means there are a lot of great stories out there that no one has ever heard because they think the guy doesn't 'matter' because he never reached the magic threshold of five kills. Maybe one of the things that will be noteworthy about "Red Tails" is that it will divert from that standard script.

And there will remain millions of  stories that will never be told for whatever reason, and  they never see the light of day; the Red Tails are not one of those stories---they have been praised and celebrated for years...and will continue to enjoy that light...ace or no ace...

Manstein's revenge

I can't think of any movie made about fighter pilots of this era that did not have the status of ace or their "score" (to some or all of the characters) as part of the story... 

I think you're right. Which probably means there are a lot of great stories out there that no one has ever heard because they think the guy doesn't 'matter' because he never reached the magic threshold of five kills. Maybe one of the things that will be noteworthy about "Red Tails" is that it will divert from that standard script.

bbrowniii

Manstein's revenge:

Didn't say that it was the main theme of the story, but I guess I'm letting facts get in the way of it...

 

I understand that it is a fact, but is it a relevant one? Does it matter that none (or one - as you said, its debatable) of them became an Ace? Should that fact have been highlighted in the movie?

To me, it seems irrelevant because it does not diminish their accomplishments in any way.

I'm not diminishing their accomplishments...just bringing up an interesting point that is relevant (in my opinion) to EVERY fighter pilot who evere lived: his score...I can't think of any movie made about fighter pilots of this era that did not have the status of ace or their "score" (to some or all of the characters) as part of the story... 

Manstein's revenge

Didn't say that it was the main theme of the story, but I guess I'm letting facts get in the way of it...

I understand that it is a fact, but is it a relevant one? Does it matter that none (or one - as you said, its debatable) of them became an Ace? Should that fact have been highlighted in the movie?

To me, it seems irrelevant because it does not diminish their accomplishments in any way.

bbrowniii

Manstein's revenge:

From WIKIPEDIA:

While flying with the 302nd Fighter Squadron, he flew 169 combat missions in the European Theatre of World War II, scoring four confirmed air combat victories:

• one Messerschmitt Bf 109 on 18 July 1944 over Memmingen, Germany
• three Bf 109s on 12 October 1944 over Lake Balaton, Hungary

He also destroyed six aircraft on the ground during a strafing mission in August 1944.

Ground kills were not counted when it came to "ace" status---only air-to-air kills. Looks like the steel trap is still strong...

 

Apparently it depends upon what source you use:

"(AP)  Retired Air Force Lt. Colonel Lee A. Archer, a Tuskegee Airman considered to be the only black ace pilot who also broke racial barriers as an executive at a major U.S. company and founder of a venture capital firm, died Wednesday in New York City. He was 90.

His son, Roy Archer, said his father died at Cornell University Medical Center in Manhattan. A cause of death was not immediately determined.

The Tuskegee Airmen were America's first black fighter pilot group in World War II.

"It is generally conceded that Lee Archer was the first and only black ace pilot," credited with shooting down five enemy planes, Dr. Roscoe Brown Jr., a fellow Tuskegee Airman and friend, said in a telephone interview Thursday.

Archer was acknowledged to have shot down four planes, and he and another pilot both claimed victory for shooting down a fifth plane. An investigation revealed Archer had inflicted the damage that destroyed the plane, said Brown, and the Air Force eventually proclaimed him an ace pilot." (emphasis added)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/01/29/national/main6153793.shtml

 

 

Manstein's revenge

From WIKIPEDIA:

While flying with the 302nd Fighter Squadron, he flew 169 combat missions in the European Theatre of World War II, scoring four confirmed air combat victories:

• one Messerschmitt Bf 109 on 18 July 1944 over Memmingen, Germany
• three Bf 109s on 12 October 1944 over Lake Balaton, Hungary

He also destroyed six aircraft on the ground during a strafing mission in August 1944.

Ground kills were not counted when it came to "ace" status---only air-to-air kills. Looks like the steel trap is still strong...

Apparently it depends upon what source you use:

"(AP)  Retired Air Force Lt. Colonel Lee A. Archer, a Tuskegee Airman considered to be the only black ace pilot who also broke racial barriers as an executive at a major U.S. company and founder of a venture capital firm, died Wednesday in New York City. He was 90.

His son, Roy Archer, said his father died at Cornell University Medical Center in Manhattan. A cause of death was not immediately determined.

The Tuskegee Airmen were America's first black fighter pilot group in World War II.

"It is generally conceded that Lee Archer was the first and only black ace pilot," credited with shooting down five enemy planes, Dr. Roscoe Brown Jr., a fellow Tuskegee Airman and friend, said in a telephone interview Thursday.

Archer was acknowledged to have shot down four planes, and he and another pilot both claimed victory for shooting down a fifth plane. An investigation revealed Archer had inflicted the damage that destroyed the plane, said Brown, and the Air Force eventually proclaimed him an ace pilot." (emphasis added)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/01/29/national/main6153793.shtml

Hans von Hammer

Any REAL Warbirds in it?

I'll be honest, I SO don't care about this movie.. After all the hype, it seems that it's just another Hollywierd attempt to sell something...  (Watch the resurgence of  60.00 , 1/48 "Redtail Mustangs" coming to a hobbyshop near you!)

There is a pretty interesting interview with George Lucas on "The Daily Show" (jump to the third segment if you don't want to watch the whole episode.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/317478/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-mon-jan-9-2012#s-p2-so-i0

Two things that jumped out at me were:

When Lucas said that the film is, in many ways, targeted to young boys. He wanted them to know that there are real heroes (outside of the sports world) to look up to and admire. For that reason, he basically admitted (and I can't recall all his exact words) that the movie is 'jingoistic'.

He also said that, realistically, the movie 'has' a prequel and a sequel - that the whole story of the Tuskegee Airmen is too vast and complex to tell in a single, two hour movie.

And, from an article I found online today:

"“Red Tails” certainly isn’t the first film about the famed Tuskegee Airmen, but according to Roscoe Brown, a former squadron commander in the 332nd Fighter Group, it’s the first to move beyond the well-told story of racism that led to the group’s formation, and focus instead on the combat mission,

“[George Lucas] takes us right to Ramitelli, Italy, where we did most of our flying,” Brown told “Nightly News.”

The former fighter pilot, now 89, served as a consultant on the film and can still recall war stories as though they happened yesterday.

The “penultimate mission” of the 15^th Air Force, he said, was on March 24^th, 1945: a 1600 mile round trip mission to Berlin and back to Italy to bomb a German factory that produced tank parts. 

“When I got close to Berlin, I saw these jet planes coming up.  And because of the instinctive work that we'd done in practice, I said, ‘Drop your tanks and follow me,’” he recalled.  “I came away from the bombers, the jets were coming up here, and I then made a hard right turn and caught the jet-- in my lead with my electronic gunner, brr-- boom.  And that was it.  He bailed out-- that was the first jet that was shot down over Berlin, although some had been shot down before.  So I'm very proud, I'm one of 15 pilots in the whole Air Force that shot down jets in World War II.”"

http://dailynightly.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/20/10201973-tuskegee-airmen-movie-red-tails-a-hard-sell-in-hollywood

bondoman

“Lee had two great careers,” said Dr. Roscoe C. Brown Jr., himself a renowned Tuskegee Airman and currently director of the Center for Urban Education Policy and professor at the Graduate School and University Center of the City University of New York. “He was a true American hero and an ace pilot, and a very successful businessman and entrepreneur.”

 

Archer, Brown continued, “is generally considered an ace pilot because he is credited with shooting down five enemy planes.” For several years, there was an ongoing dispute about whether Archer was actually an ace since there was some question about the fifth plane shot down.

“After an investigation by the Air Force, it was decided that Lee, in fact, shot down the fifth plane, and is thereby the first and only Black ace pilot,” Brown concluded.

-http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net

bbrowniii

Manstein's revenge:

If my steel trap of a mind is serving me correctly not one of the "Red Tails" achieved "ace" status... 

 

Who cares?

"Ace status" is not what makes their story compelling.

“Lee had two great careers,” said Dr. Roscoe C. Brown Jr., himself a renowned Tuskegee Airman and currently director of the Center for Urban Education Policy and professor at the Graduate School and University Center of the City University of New York. “He was a true American hero and an ace pilot, and a very successful businessman and entrepreneur.”

Archer, Brown continued, “is generally considered an ace pilot because he is credited with shooting down five enemy planes.” For several years, there was an ongoing dispute about whether Archer was actually an ace since there was some question about the fifth plane shot down.

“After an investigation by the Air Force, it was decided that Lee, in fact, shot down the fifth plane, and is thereby the first and only Black ace pilot,” Brown concluded.

-http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net

I have not seen this movie and, I doubt I will.  My reason is simple.  I consider myself a student of Military history.  The exploits of the 332nd Fighter Group, much like those of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, Taffy-3 in the Battle off Samar or the Battle of Thermopylae (300 Spartans) need no embellishment.

Of course I realize that the sole purpose of this film is historically based entertainment with maybe a microscopic bit of encouragement for young folks to look into the "real" story.

Well....Maybe when it comes out on DVD...

Enjoy the movie!  Not a darn thing wrong with it.

Ray

Manstein's revenge

If my steel trap of a mind is serving me correctly not one of the "Red Tails" achieved "ace" status... 

Who cares?

"Ace status" is not what makes their story compelling.

From WIKIPEDIA:

While flying with the 302nd Fighter Squadron, he flew 169 combat missions in the European Theatre of World War II, scoring four confirmed air combat victories:

• one Messerschmitt Bf 109 on 18 July 1944 over Memmingen, Germany
• three Bf 109s on 12 October 1944 over Lake Balaton, Hungary

He also destroyed six aircraft on the ground during a strafing mission in August 1944.

Ground kills were not counted when it came to "ace" status---only air-to-air kills. Looks like the steel trap is still strong...

Hans von Hammer

Any REAL Warbirds in it?

I'll be honest, I SO don't care about this movie.. After all the hype, it seems that it's just another Hollywierd attempt to sell something...

Just be glad we get anything at all from Hollywood as far as aircraft movies go!

Compared to most of the trash they film nowadays this will be a welcome site even though it may not be accurate, etc.

ww2psycho

 

Manstein's revenge:

 

If my steel trap of a mind is serving me correctly not one of the "Red Tails" achieved "ace" status... 

 

 

Manny I do believe one did, Lt. Lee Archer if I remember correctly. Recent research may have proven that wrong but as far as I know hes the only one. I'll have to look to make sure.

Another myth is that they never lost a bomber they were escorting. Not true, but that'd only mean they weren't anywhere "hot".

There's a rumor that Manny got his big band record collection from Archer when Archer visited him at Spandau shortly after the war.

Manstein's revenge

If my steel trap of a mind is serving me correctly not one of the "Red Tails" achieved "ace" status... 

First off, Im not going to start any arguement about the movie. Im going to enjoy it just like I enjoyed the old one. I know there will never be a 100% historically accurate movie. I will enjoy it for what it is, a movie. I was hoping to go tonight but that may not happen now. Hoping for this weekend sometime.

Manny I do believe one did, Lt. Lee Archer if I remember correctly. Recent research may have proven that wrong but as far as I know hes the only one. I'll have to look to make sure.

If my steel trap of a mind is serving me correctly not one of the "Red Tails" achieved "ace" status... 

Hans von Hammer

Any REAL Warbirds in it?

 

If by REAL, you mean NOT CG.....yes....maybe two of em. 1 each (40-51). Could just be mock-ups though.

DoogsATX

Seeing it sometime this weekend. Not expecting Band of Brothers or anything, but I've heard the aerial sequences are pretty great. Honestly as long as planes fly and things go boom I'm happy. 

That's pretty much the attitude needed.....you shall be happy!

Hans von Hammer

Pegasus makes a great affordable ($10-$15 range) 1/48 Snap Tite Tuskeegee P-51 that is the perfect way to start any kids in this hooby who may be inspired to build one (and perhaps one day become a USAF pilot)

Yupper.. My granddaughter is working on that kit even as we speak... Found it on Ebay for like 6.00.. It's really a surprisingly-well done kit, especially for a "Snapper"..

I have seen several Pegasus "snapper" builds at our local IPMS chapter. Great stuff for the beginner and the perfect canvas for someone like you to go to town on. Check out their whole line of 1/48 stuff.

Mr Rabbit, since you have no pre conceived ideas one way or the other, I bet you will enjoy the film as it is intended to be seen.

Im on my here in a few minutes to check it out.... fortunately I don't know enough of the technicalities to be disappointed.  I guess we'll see

Pegasus makes a great affordable ($10-$15 range) 1/48 Snap Tite Tuskeegee P-51 that is the perfect way to start any kids in this hooby who may be inspired to build one (and perhaps one day become a USAF pilot)

Yupper.. My granddaughter is working on that kit even as we speak... Found it on Ebay for like 6.00.. It's really a surprisingly-well done kit, especially for a "Snapper"..

Hans von Hammer

 (Watch the resurgence of  60.00 , 1/48 "Redtail Mustangs" coming to a hobbyshop near you!)

Lt Col.(ret) Luke Weathers Jr.  (WW2-332nd Fighter Group) was laid to rest today at Arlington National Cemetary to coincide with the release of the movie today...

Weathers was buried Friday at Arlington National Cemetary in a service that began with a flyover of four F-16 jets in the Missing Man formation, a special honor reserved for pilots, by the 113th Wing of the D.C. Capital Guardians, the same unit that guards the airspace over the nation's capital.

Weathers died Oct. 15 in Tucson, Ariz., of pneumonia at age 90. His burial coincided with the official opening in theaters of "Red Tails," a George Lucas-produced movie retelling the story of the Tuskegee Airmen who debunked widely held beliefs that black pilots were incapable of fighting in combat.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/20/tuskegee-airman-buried-at-arlington/

Rest In Peace LTC. Your hard efforts paid off. I dont think any man can have a better thing said about their life.

I still have my Pro Modeler Tuskeegee P-51 in the stash. No need for a new kit costing more the a U.S.Grant likeness for me. And Pegasus makes a great affordable ($10-$15 range) 1/48 Snap Tite Tuskeegee P-51 that is the perfect way to start any kids in this hooby who may be inspired to build one (and perhaps one day become a USAF pilot)

Any REAL Warbirds in it?

I'll be honest, I SO don't care about this movie.. After all the hype, it seems that it's just another Hollywierd attempt to sell something...  (Watch the resurgence of  60.00 , 1/48 "Redtail Mustangs" coming to a hobbyshop near you!)

Hopefully, the script is better than that HBO-stinker in 1996, The Tuskegee Airmen...  That was a absolutely the worst WW2 aviation-movie I ever wasted 96  minutes on...  There was more cheese in that flick than a Green Bay Packer's home-game... 

Gotta love a scene in which a dying fighter pilot sings the "Fighting 99th" song as he heads earthwards and burns in the cockpit... 

And on a related note...

Lt Col.(ret) Luke Weathers Jr.  (WW2-332nd Fighter Group) was laid to rest today at Arlington National Cemetary to coincide with the release of the movie today...

Weathers was buried Friday at Arlington National Cemetary in a service that began with a flyover of four F-16 jets in the Missing Man formation, a special honor reserved for pilots, by the 113th Wing of the D.C. Capital Guardians, the same unit that guards the airspace over the nation's capital.

Weathers died Oct. 15 in Tucson, Ariz., of pneumonia at age 90. His burial coincided with the official opening in theaters of "Red Tails," a George Lucas-produced movie retelling the story of the Tuskegee Airmen who debunked widely held beliefs that black pilots were incapable of fighting in combat.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/20/tuskegee-airman-buried-at-arlington/

Kolja94

 I find it even HARDER to believe that it would have been done in the 40's.  Then again perhaps my grandparents' generation was more hip than we give them credit for. 

If you ever heard and saw a live big band OG (original guy/old guy) drummer doing a solo during American Patrol  or Sing Sing Sing, you would give them more credit. It all started somewhere. Those nice old gents we grew up knowing were once wild young bucks with the tales of deeds to match. But discretion of the times made it so that those things were not for polite everyday conversation.

And not to take away from your service, but the odds for combat aircrew in WWII were pretty horrible compared to today or anybody we have fought since Vietnam. They have improved considerably since then. Our last loss of a manned fixed wing combat aircraft due to hostile action was in 1999 over Serbia IIRC.

Seeing it sometime this weekend. Not expecting Band of Brothers or anything, but I've heard the aerial sequences are pretty great. Honestly as long as planes fly and things go boom I'm happy. 

stikpusher

The trailers show them flying P-51s and P-40s. Does the movie have the P-47s too? How do the aircraft look overall? (to keep this model related)

Nope, just the 40's and 51's. The 40's almost look like overweathered models....the 51's are a little more realistic looking.....but they're not "old, run down, hand-me-down, garbage". 17's look OK, along with the 109s, 262's...so-so, and a Stuka or 2.

I don't think the "huddle" is as bad as it seams in the commercials, there's a little more to it.....still unneccessary though.

B-17 Guy

And why does everybody have such a problem with the "we fight" thing? Personally I liked it and it's only in the movie once.

For me it seemed out of place.  I've been flying combat missions for over 10 years now and we've never once had a Drew Brees-like rah-rah circle je... um, huddle... like that.  I guess maybe we were supposed to have been doing so?  I find it even HARDER to believe that it would have been done in the 40's.  Then again perhaps my grandparents' generation was more hip than we give them credit for.  To me it just seems a little bit like pandering to make it 'cool' for the kids or whatever.  But then again, that's how Hollywood makes money... and if it's only in the movie once then I don't suppose it's that big of a deal.

I saw it today too, I liked it a little disapointed but I liked it. Spotted a bunch of technical errors in it but I've seen worse and none of them really take away from the movie. The biggest error I kept seeing was pilots and crew not wearing their oxygen masks at high altitude.

And why does everybody have such a problem with the "we fight" thing? Personally I liked it and it's only in the movie once.