Before They Were Aces-The First Aircraft of the Aces

bbrowniii

 

Alrighty... so the Revell has the most accurate nose, eh?  For some reason, that sounds familiar, like I have read that review somewhere as well... hmmm, have to poke around and see what I can find.

It's not just the nose.  The cockpit is actually deeper on the P-36 through the P-40D compared to the P-40E and on.  The Academy/Hobbycraft 1/48 kits have the more shallow cockpit and fuselage of the later airplanes, and that puts the wing too high on those P-40B kits, and the profile of the lower forward fuselage/engine cowl too low.  That makes the cowl appear too deep and the opening for the cowl flaps is too large.  The Revell kit seems right on in shape to me.

Here is my build of the Revell kit, warts and all.

http://yolo.net/~jeaton/mymodels/p40/monop40b/monop40b.htm

stikpusher

Thats pretty good stuff Darson. Is there any dating on that photo? I know that Francis Gabreski got airborne on Dec 7th in a P-36 from Wheeler Field, although he did not engage any of the raiders.  Quite a great pilot to choose for a subject of this GB.

Just shows how you've got to read these things properly.  The caption on my photo actually reads "Captain Gabby Gabreski is seen climbing out of the cockpit of his Spitfire F.XC BS410 'PK-E' at the end of his first mission."  I read this as being his first combat mission rather than his first RAF mission, thanks for the heads up.

Oh and Hans can you make me a definite starter for this build.

Cheers

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the help with the research.  I really appreciate it.

I am familiar with Boyington's book (I read it a few times when I was a kid, but I didn't recall the photos.  I'll see if I can dig out a copy.

The website with each plane from the AVG is great!  Thanks Darson...

Alrighty... so the Revell has the most accurate nose, eh?  For some reason, that sounds familiar, like I have read that review somewhere as well... hmmm, have to poke around and see what I can find.

Thats pretty good stuff Darson. Is there any dating on that photo? I know that Francis Gabreski got airborne on Dec 7th in a P-36 from Wheeler Field, although he did not engage any of the raiders.  Quite a great pilot to choose for a subject of this GB.

OK Hans, I think I got one. The kit was started a ways back as an entry for a different GB, but so far only the 'pit has been finished and the fuselage buttoned up, so there's a loooong way to go (anyone who's ever rigged a stringbag and applied lozenge camo can attest to that, I'll tell ya). The mount is an Albatros D.V flown by Carl-August von Schoenebeck when he belonged to Jasta 11. He scored his first 3 of eight total victories in this particular aircraft.

The kit is Eduard's 1/48 Profi-pack offering. Let me know what you think. Here's a pic.....

....and here's a bit about him.....

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/germany/schoenebeck.php

I've been doing a little digging around and I found a really cool picture in American Eagles: American Volunteers in the RAF 1937 - 1943.  It shows Gabby Gabreski getting out of his Spitfire at the end of his first combat mission.  I'll keep digging and see if I can find some more

Cheers

bbrowniii

Stikpusher

Thanks for confirming my research!  I appreciate it!

Now, two more questions:

1) Anyone make a good kit of the B/C and

2) Anyone have a pic or info about the bird Pappy Boyington flew for the AVG?

Thanks again!

Bbrowniii From what I have read about the P-40 B/C models in 1/48 scale, the only one that has the true nose shape is the Revell P-40B/C, the others are slightly off, which I found quite suprising. If memeroy serves me right I read that in a review on hyperscale.com, and in a mag (could have very well been FSM) but I cant remember the name of it off hand. I cant find a picture of Boyingtons P-40B what I think this is, is a rendering of his P-40 it may help you out some.

http://www.michael-reimer.com/CFS2/CFS2_Profiles/PTO_Allies_AVG.html

Hans I found this site in my research and thought it might be interesting to some of the other builders here. They are combat reports writen by fighter pilots flying P-51s, they apear to be scanned actual reports.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html

bbrowniii

Stikpusher

Thanks for confirming my research!  I appreciate it!

Now, two more questions:

1) Anyone make a good kit of the B/C and

2) Anyone have a pic or info about the bird Pappy Boyington flew for the AVG?

Thanks again!

Hey guys,

Sorry to jump in on this discussion, not sure if I can join the GB.

But, brownii Pappy flew with the AVG in the B/C version as his mount first I believe. Most pics of REAL AVG birds are of this type.

Mr. Boyington wrote an autobio about his life and it has several pics and his own recollections of his time in the AVG. He describes the aircraft he flew and his war accounts(some say stories).

It's called Baa Baa Black Sheep.

I was fortunate to get a first edition copy of this book from the man himself. He was at an airshow back in the '80s, selling the book and promoting the USMC. He signed it with a note and handed it to me.(Very Cool)

HTH, There is also a www that you can go to under his name.

Dr

OK, I did a bit more checking... Eagle Cals makes decal sheets in 1/48, 1/32, and 1/72 that have Boyingtons mount... 1st Pursuit Squadron, the Adam and Eves, #21. The sheet number are: 1/48 & 1/72 sheet EC#30, in 1/32 sheet EC#68. I forgot to ask what scale you are looking for your kit.

There are several choices for P-40 B/Cs out there. The old Revellogram standard, Hobbycraft makes a whole family, which in turn was reboxed by Academy, and the most recent was done by Trumpeter. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. I dont seem to be able to find any currently available decals for Boyington's mount, but I do vaguely recall some made by Cutting Edge a few years back before they shut down.

Stikpusher

Thanks for confirming my research!  I appreciate it!

Now, two more questions:

1) Anyone make a good kit of the B/C and

2) Anyone have a pic or info about the bird Pappy Boyington flew for the AVG?

Thanks again!

xradio81: Count me in for an early 1/48 zero of probably Saburo Sakae, Tamiya kit, china theatre, awaiting research material now. Or, early 1/48 F4C or D in Vietnam theatre 8TFW. ace up for grabs at this time until I dig thru my records.

Like you said you have pretty much already answered your own questions about teh visual differences regarding the P-40B/C and the P40E. The B/C had the sleeker nose profile with two cowl mounted .50s and four wing mounted .30s, carryovers from the late P-36 heritage. The P-40E had the beefier nose with teh more forward chin intake and six wing mounted .50s. The difference between the B and C are maily internal-  self sealing fuel tanks,and the ability to carry a belly tank.

As far as which flew with the AVG, the P-40E was just coming in to front line service at the time of Pearl Harbor and the tme that the AVG became operational. The initial line up of P40s was taken from a British order (Hawk 81A-1s) IIRC, and were of the P-40 B/C varaint. I am fairly certain that replacement P-40Es did not reach the AVG until the time they were about to be incorporated in to the USAAF as the 23rd Fighter Goup in late spring of '42.

Can anyone provide me with info/links to variations in the different versions of the P-40?  I keep getting scattered info about which variant the AVG flew.  Some sources say they were 'B's, others say they were 'B's, but got re-designated as 'C's when they got swapped to the AVG.  Hasagawa has a P-40 Flying Tiger kit that is an 'E'.

Are there major/noticable differences between the variants??  Did the AVG fly the 'E'? 

EDIT...

OK, I think I have partially answered my own question.  Judging by pictures (boxart actually) the 'B' has a big air scoop at the front, two mg's in each wing (both .30 cal?) and two on the nose while the 'E' has a less pronounced scoop, and three guns in each wing (.50 cal?). 

Still, the question remains - did the AVG fly both the 'B' and the 'E'...?

Alright,

I'm leaning towards doing the Bf-110E flown by Martin Drewes out of Mosul Air Base, Iraq in May of '41.  Drewes earned a kill over Fallujah on 20 May when he shot down a British Gloster Gladiator.

He would go on to become an ace flying Bf-110s in a night fighter role.  He finished the war with 52 victories, mostly over British four engine bombers.  After the war, he emigrated to Brazil, where he still lives (at age 91). (Sourece: Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Drewes).

Pretty interesting guy....

Ummm, I've got the Eduard kit for this bird, which is why I am trending towards that.  However, I still want to check out some more on the AVGs P-40s (specifically Pappy Boyington's) before I make a final decision...

Were you going to set up a page for referances ?? I did find some interesting ones I will be more than happy to share.

Probably not a bad idea... It'd would beat having to scroll through pages and pages of text, wouldn't it...

JUST FYI men.. It's now 24 0617 DEC 09... I'm leaving the net at 24 1300 DEC 09 through 26 0600 DEC 09 Central for Christmas.  Merry Christmas to all y'all!

Stikpusher I did see that website, in fact I have a picture of Arval Roberson from 2001 I got from there. Thanks for posting it though

Hans Thank you sir I am really going to enjoy this build and the group I think will be a bunch of fun. Were you going to set up a page for referances ?? I did find some interesting ones I will be more than happy to share. Mustang encounter reports, 8th Army Airforce roster and such.

1/48 Classic Airframes.

Done, Vetteman..

jeaton01

Hans, am I in this GB with the Lewis Hurricane I?  I think I will do VY E, as AK A was not in 85 Squadron markings.

Thanks,

Sure... Kit & Scale?

Vette, have you seen this website. They do have lots of stuff that may be helpful to you.

http://www.cebudanderson.com/357fg.htm

Hans von Hammer I want in this build pleazzzeeeee. I have a 1/48 Tamiya P-51B to offer built as Lt. Arval J. Roberson of the 8th Airforce, 357th FG, 362nd FS. mount. He had 3 kills with his P-51B Passion Wagon, then transisioned to a P-51D, also called Passion Wagon, after having an accident in the B model, gaining his next 3 kills in the P-51D. The P-51B was converted to a 2 seater after the accident and called 469th Baby. I do have a picture of Lt. Roberson in his P-51B showing three kills on the side, however this picture is a closeup of him only showing the cockpit and kill markings. I cant seem to find pictures of the plane itself. There are a bunch of pictures of his P-51D on the net I have found. With that said, I found he did not have the nose art on his B model but did have the name on it. It does seem the other markings other than the D-day stripes where the same, those markings being G4-A with  tail number 436688. Would this be an acceptable build for the group if I cant find a picture of his P-51B Passion Wagon ? So if anyone has one maybe they would be willing to share it with me and us ?

Now for a comment. What a great idea Hans ! In researching this build I came across a lot in very interesting things that took me in very differand directions. I did find after Lt. Roberson finished his tour the Passion Wagon went to Capt. Charles Weaver, he kept the name but changed the nose art. Then it seems Passion Wagon went to a Lt. Arsel Robinson ( interesting thing same last name as mine) and he changed the name to Gypsy, and flew it to the end of the war. After leaving service he kind of dropped off the planet, cant find out anymore than that about him.

Hans, am I in this GB with the Lewis Hurricane I?  I think I will do VY E, as AK A was not in 85 Squadron markings.

Thanks,

pordoi

bbrowniii:

Hans von Hammer:

Done, Stik...  That painting doesn't do the story justice...  Johnson thought that the FW pilot was about to let him go when he pulled up along side his Jug and saluted him...

But the German was just saying, "auf Wiedersehen" before shooting him down... The FW then pulled back into trail and proceeded to finish him off.  All Johnson could do was hunker down behind the armor plate and wait for the end... Luckily for Johnson, the FW ran out of ammo first...

 

That is a heck of a story...  I was not familiar with that...

Hans, I have kind of sworn off GBs for the new year (other than dupes' Winter Warriors), but this one is pretty intriguing.  I think I'd like to tentatively jump into it.  I'd do Pappy Boyington's P-40 from his Flying Tiger days...  Let me do some research first, and get back to you before I really commit, but at this point I'd say I'm about 90%...

 

 

Here's an online version of the Johnson encounter with the FW.

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Seversky-Republic5.html

According to this, it took three passes at Johnson's P-47 before running out of ammo.  And Johnson actually got a few rounds off himself at the FW. 

Don

 

Great link Don! One of the better acounts of that incident I have read.

Hans von Hammer

I was thinking of modeling his first, primarily because I have the Tamiya kit available and I've been wanting to build it. 

Nothin' wrong with the first, Don..

Alright then.  Sign me up for Neel Kearby's original Fiery Ginger, to be modeled after his first successful encounter with a Betty and escorting zekes, downing 2. 

Don

bbrowniii

Hans von Hammer:

Done, Stik...  That painting doesn't do the story justice...  Johnson thought that the FW pilot was about to let him go when he pulled up along side his Jug and saluted him...

But the German was just saying, "auf Wiedersehen" before shooting him down... The FW then pulled back into trail and proceeded to finish him off.  All Johnson could do was hunker down behind the armor plate and wait for the end... Luckily for Johnson, the FW ran out of ammo first...

 

That is a heck of a story...  I was not familiar with that...

Hans, I have kind of sworn off GBs for the new year (other than dupes' Winter Warriors), but this one is pretty intriguing.  I think I'd like to tentatively jump into it.  I'd do Pappy Boyington's P-40 from his Flying Tiger days...  Let me do some research first, and get back to you before I really commit, but at this point I'd say I'm about 90%...

Here's an online version of the Johnson encounter with the FW.

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Seversky-Republic5.html

According to this, it took three passes at Johnson's P-47 before running out of ammo.  And Johnson actually got a few rounds off himself at the FW. 

Don

More 85 Squadron s/n's:

L1604; L1632; L1634; L1637; L1639; L1644; L1648; L1651; L1653; L1656; L1765; L1773; L1775; L1778; L1779; L1833; L1834

It may be unlikely to be able to tie the s/n to the codes, since not many records came back from France.  Who knows.

Here is a nice link for Lewis:

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http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol016dt.html

VY D and VY E are documented there as airplanes flown before AK A.  So far I don't know the s/n's on any of these a/c, still looking.

jeaton01

I think I'm up for a Hurricane I flown by Albert Lewis coded AK A.  He scored his 3rd thru 7th victories in this airplane, so I'll have to do it at the start of the day, is that OK, Hans?  I don't know if I can find an actual photo of AK A, so I'll have to give it a May 10, 1940 scheme with 85 Squadron in France.  Still OK?

What was he flying for kills 1 &  2?

I was thinking of modeling his first, primarily because I have the Tamiya kit available and I've been wanting to build it. 

Nothin' wrong with the first, Don..

I think I'm up for a Hurricane I flown by Albert Lewis coded AK A.  He scored his 3rd thru 7th victories in this airplane, so I'll have to do it at the start of the day, is that OK, Hans?  I don't know if I can find an actual photo of AK A, so I'll have to give it a May 10, 1940 scheme with 85 Squadron in France.  Still OK?