The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

SORRY!

I'm bagged, I mean't the WISO tub's pins are vertical, and the pilot pins are horizontal.

Bockscar

SORRY!

I'm bagged, I mean't the WISO tub's pins are vertical, and the pilot pins are horizontal.

Hi Dominic,

The pedals are photo etch and have no distinguishing marks to indicate how they attach.  I have seen some decent photos of the forward cockpit pedals and they do have the swing type attachment replicated by where my arrow is pointing in the first picture.  But I cannot find any decent photos of the rear cockpit pedals.  The other set of photo etched rudder pedals I have are shaped the same and the instructions included for those just indicate to bend the bottom of the pedals and attach them to the floor.  But that was to be used with the original kit cockpit.

Ken

I forgot you were talking about photo etch! Oh man, Friday can't get here fast enough. 

The only other thing I can suggest is to go from macro to micro. The real deal probably assumes the same ergonomic layout of pedal to seat, but someone like Berny or Rex would probably know the truth on that.

If you've got a micro ruler or small calipers, you can figure out the placement of the rear cockpit's pedals from your measurements or my all-time favourite, a paper template. If those vertical pins terminate in the right place, Bingo! was his name.

Good luck, and I'll stop looking for locater pin holes in PE!

Oh yeah, one little detail just to be clear; The front and rear seats should have the identical ergonomic geometry of the seat to pedal distances and positions - ahem, assuming they did that for real. I meant use the front set up as a guide and replicate it in the rear tub. 

http://www.militaryfactory.com/imageviewer/ac/cockpit-detail.asp?aircraft_id=24&sCurrentPic=mcdonnelldouglas-f4c-phantomii.jpg

http://www.google.com/images?q=Phantom+cockpit&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=OVu&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbs=isch:1&ei=uZiKTd-pHceO0QGQltD-DQ&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1296&bih=703

in some of those shots you can see the pedals , some of the other's might prove useful also

Rex

Hi Rex,

You know, I have done a ton of searches for "F-4 cockpit", "F-4E cockpit", etc. but none on "Phantom cockpit".  It is so funny how you can get different results from changing just one thing like that.  I did see a lot of the same pictures but also some new ones.  Thank you for giving me that.  I really appreciate it.

Dominic had a good idea too about checking the scale distances from the front and rear cockpit and as it turns out, they do match!  I have seen some pictures of different aircraft that have the same style of rudder pedals as what the Aires rear cockpit has.

Here is my opinion of why the front and rear have a different style of rudder pedals.  Since the F-4 was originally engineered for the Navy and the rear cockpit did not have any controls, I think that McDonnell Douglas had to come up with something that would fit into the design for the rear cockpit.  So maybe that is why they are designed differently.

Well, I had my in-grown toe nail worked on today and the Novocain wore off so I had to take some pain pills.  I feel too groggy now to do any work tonight so it will have to wait another night.  But at least I feel better about where to attach the rudder pedals.  I will post some pictures tomorrow night when I have them done.  Thanks again everybody for your help!

Ken

Well, this Saturday is my B-day and I took Friday off. Maybe I will get some serious work done on my Phantoms. I took Friday off as part of that and plan to just chill and do my own thing. I had considered visiting the Wings Over The Rockies museum but I see from their web site that they are closed for remodeling and floor refinishing. Maybe just a trip to Colpar Hobbies will have to suffice. The museum does have a display of an F4-E there I wanted to visit, plus my other favorite airplane, the FB-111A 'Vark. Hopefully I can avoid family and friends who think I must do this and I must do that because of this day. I am at heart a loner and just enjoy being with me! I don't need fancy celebrations!

Son Of Medicine Man

Hi Everyone,

I need help (again!).  I was getting ready to attach the rudder pedals and I am not sure where they should be attached.  The Aires cockpit has great detail but lousy instructions.  From the research I have been able to gather, I believe they should be attached at the locations that I have indicated in the following photos with a yellow arrow:

 

Am I correct or way off base?  By the way, this is an F-4E (Air Force) so the rear cockpit does get the rudder pedals.  Thanks!

Ken

That is the correct position for the rudder pedals.  As far as exact position both were adjustable so how far forward or aft they would be positioned would depend on the hight of the crew member.  On pre flight by maintenance, both rudder pedals would be positioned or cranked as far forward as they would go.  The pilot or WSO would then position them after strapping in.  The rudder pedal adjustment was done by a crank located low on the pedestal panel of each cockpit.

Very good job on the cockpits.  You need to put the fuel dump switch in the off position though.  Don't want to dump fuel all over your work space when you apply power.  

Berny;

LOL! 

 "You need to put the fuel dump switch in the off position though.  Don't want to dump fuel all over your work space when you apply power. "

Happy Birthday Jim!     

That is a real bummer that you can't spend the day at the Wings Over The Rockies museum.  I hope your day gets better.

Ken

Hi Berny,

Thank you so much for letting me know.  I think I have seen that crank that adjusts the rudder pedals in a few pictures, just didn't know what it was for.  Now I do.  Thank you again for your help!

Ken

Hi Berny,

Thank you for the compliment!  This is my first build but I am trying to make it as authentic as I can.

Ken

jimbot58

Well, this Saturday is my B-day and I took Friday off. Maybe I will get some serious work done on my Phantoms. I took Friday off as part of that and plan to just chill and do my own thing. I had considered visiting the Wings Over The Rockies museum but I see from their web site that they are closed for remodeling and floor refinishing. Maybe just a trip to Colpar Hobbies will have to suffice. The museum does have a display of an F4-E there I wanted to visit, plus my other favorite airplane, the FB-111A 'Vark. Hopefully I can avoid family and friends who think I must do this and I must do that because of this day. I am at heart a loner and just enjoy being with me! I don't need fancy celebrations!

Happy birthday Jimbot;

I had a pal whose wife scheduled him an in-house haircut for early in the morning, then an opportunity for him to take his kids to a petting zoo so they could celebrate his birthday. It's no wonder people become introverts.

I promise not to show up with a case of beer and a newly released 1/24 scale 'Vark with a bow on it, I know it wouldn't be enough! 

Happy birthday anyways!

Hi Everyone,

Today I painted the floor board of the cockpit tub flat black.  It was like the ultimate game of "Operation" where you didn't want to touch the sides or you would get paint on them.  I had a couple of "oops", but was able to clean it up.  Next I had to come up with a way to attach the rudder pedals to their appropriate linkages.  I decided to use very small diameter copper wire.  I cut the wire to approximate length and used CA to attach them to the pedals.  I am going to let them dry over night and then tomorrow I will glue them to the linkages.  I will use CA accelerator when I have them in position.  It seems like a great plan, we will see if it works tomorrow.  Here is a picture of the rudder pedals with the wire glued to them:

The wire looks to be about the right scale from the pictures I have seen.

Ken

Finally got the scheme down; now I'll have to paint the gear wells, etc., then on to penciling panel lines, and decals. Rex, I have to agree with you, the LGG/White birds were the absolute best lookin' Phantoms in existence.

Glenn

Glenn,

That is looking real nice!  Great job! 

Ken

I agree, I really like the contrast between the two greens, it's not so subtle that they merge, but not so loud either

looking good

Rex

jimbot58

Well, this Saturday is my B-day and I took Friday off. Maybe I will get some serious work done on my Phantoms. I took Friday off as part of that and plan to just chill and do my own thing. I had considered visiting the Wings Over The Rockies museum but I see from their web site that they are closed for remodeling and floor refinishing. Maybe just a trip to Colpar Hobbies will have to suffice. The museum does have a display of an F4-E there I wanted to visit, plus my other favorite airplane, the FB-111A 'Vark. Hopefully I can avoid family and friends who think I must do this and I must do that because of this day. I am at heart a loner and just enjoy being with me! I don't need fancy celebrations!

Jimbot:

Just to make sure, email can misconstrue easily, my comments were purely in jest, and the F-111 is one of my collector points, being an introvert myself, I have to admit here, if I had the 1/24 'Vark, ummmm, I would definitely take it, over a case of beer!

I'm going back to Dayton soon, I know the staff down there is lookin' for guys like me, but i might just scratch a strip off the f-4 to put in my 'authentic' finish!

Yeah, I've seen what can happen on these threads...all the best

Son Of Medicine Man

Happy Birthday Jim!     

That is a real bummer that you can't spend the day at the Wings Over The Rockies museum.  I hope your day gets better.

Ken

I did make it to my LHS, though all I ended up buying was a few bottles of paint. What is wrong with me that I didn't end up with even one new kit? I did do something a bit different that I hadn't done for probably 10 years...I won't say what, but it involved brass poles and dollar bills. No for me though as I had reasons to quit that long ago.

Back to the Phantom build-I did some tests with that 'Silvergray' mixture for the bottom of the "F". Starting with FS36320, I added a bit of Chrome Silver and sprayed. It looked mostly gray. I then added more silver to the mix and it looked mostly silver. In any case both looked too dark. Further research has now pointed me towards FS36440 or FS36375 with a bit of silver added. I managed to find one photo on-line that looked very light gray. Almost white. I may give that a shot with the FS36440.

I am totally bummed out right now.  Last night I attached the first rudder pedal with CA and got out the new spray can of "Zip Kicker" to spray it so it would stay in place and then this happened:

At first I thought it would be okay if I let it dry over night, but I took this picture this morning and it did not improve.  You can see the paint has reacted to the huge burst of Zip Kicker that came out when I sprayed it.  The information on the can said it was safe for most paint and plastic which I find very hard to believe that it is safe for any paint or plastic.  I was not expecting the huge amount of spray that came out.  I have spent a huge amount of time on this cockpit and now it is junk.  I hope that at the very least someone will read this and be fore warned not to use the spray can version of "Zip Kicker" unless you are wanting to spray an area over 2 inches in diameter.  Even the resin has reacted to it.  I am about to get sick.

Ken

Hi Everyone,

I have ordered another Aires cockpit.  I will use the lessons I have learned on the first cockpit when I start on the new one.  I decanted some of the "Zip Kicker" into a 1/2 oz. "Flex-I-File Touch-N-Flow" bottle to use in the future.  Another lesson learned, a hard one.

Ken

Ken,

It doesn't look too bad from my perspective. Would shooting a clear flat over the top smooth it out? Might be worth a try.

Glenn

mississippivol

Ken,

It doesn't look too bad from my perspective. Would shooting a clear flat over the top smooth it out? Might be worth a try.

Glenn

Hi Glenn,

What has happened is the Zip Kicker has caused the flat black enamel to become soft and tacky, almost gooey.  Any more paint applied to it would probably not even stick and become even a bigger mess.  I have tried using a mild dish soap to see if maybe there was only a residue that could be washed off but that was not the case.  But I was mistaken that the Zip Kicker had harmed the resin.  After washing it with the mild soap it seems to be unaffected, only the paint was affected.

So I am going to try using enamel thinner to remove the affected paint.  I will let you know how that turns out.  Since I have already ordered another cockpit, I feel that I can experiment at will on this one.  I may even try doing a wash to see if I can bring out some more detail.  Who knows, it may even turn out looking better in the long run, and I can just chaulk up all the time I have spent on it as an investment into raising my skill level.

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

I am totally bummed out right now.  Last night I attached the first rudder pedal with CA and got out the new spray can of "Zip Kicker" to spray it so it would stay in place and then this happened:

 

 

At first I thought it would be okay if I let it dry over night, but I took this picture this morning and it did not improve.  You can see the paint has reacted to the huge burst of Zip Kicker that came out when I sprayed it.  The information on the can said it was safe for most paint and plastic which I find very hard to believe that it is safe for any paint or plastic.  I was not expecting the huge amount of spray that came out.  I have spent a huge amount of time on this cockpit and now it is junk.  I hope that at the very least someone will read this and be fore warned not to use the spray can version of "Zip Kicker" unless you are wanting to spray an area over 2 inches in diameter.  Even the resin has reacted to it.  I am about to get sick.

Ken

Wow, that totally sucks, friend! I usually buy the accelerators in the pump spray bottle and then I put a small amount into a smaller bottle. I then use a micro brush to touch a small droplet near, not on the parts being cemented and allow it to flow to the work area. I hate these kinds of set backs! Last night was not good either for me! I dropped something and knocked the canopies off the 'Geasel', chipping some of the paint in the process. Now I must do some touch up, recement the clear parts in place, if I can ever get back into the hobby room! I managed to knock an open bottle of enamel paint off the desk onto the carpet last night. I cleaned it up using mineral spirits, but the oder of the "low oder" thinner was to much to handle and today I am spending my B-day shampooing the carpet to control the smell! Now the carpet is wet and I can't work!

I had something similar happen to me but it was debonder that caused the problem.  A tip is to just use an eye dropper.  Just apply one drop to the area.  Spraying accelerator will just demolish paint and is kind of wasteful.  The dropper gives you more control over just where it ends up.  Just have a paper towel ready to wipe up any excess before it gets all over the place.  I don't buy more than 1 oz. bottles of CA at a time to keep them fresh.  I use the Venom Accelerator.  It's like half the price of any other brand and it's exactly the same stuff.  It comes in 2 oz. bottles and I get them on eBay for about $5 including shipping for 2 2oz. bottles shipped.  They come with spray tops and caps so you don't have to use the spray unless you want to.  I just put on a standard eye dropper cover.  It's great stuff.

jimbot58

 

Son Of Medicine Man:

 

I am totally bummed out right now.  Last night I attached the first rudder pedal with CA and got out the new spray can of "Zip Kicker" to spray it so it would stay in place and then this happened:

 

 

At first I thought it would be okay if I let it dry over night, but I took this picture this morning and it did not improve.  You can see the paint has reacted to the huge burst of Zip Kicker that came out when I sprayed it.  The information on the can said it was safe for most paint and plastic which I find very hard to believe that it is safe for any paint or plastic.  I was not expecting the huge amount of spray that came out.  I have spent a huge amount of time on this cockpit and now it is junk.  I hope that at the very least someone will read this and be fore warned not to use the spray can version of "Zip Kicker" unless you are wanting to spray an area over 2 inches in diameter.  Even the resin has reacted to it.  I am about to get sick.

Ken

 

 

 

Wow, that totally sucks, friend! I usually buy the accelerators in the pump spray bottle and then I put a small amount into a smaller bottle. I then use a micro brush to touch a small droplet near, not on the parts being cemented and allow it to flow to the work area. I hate these kinds of set backs! Last night was not good either for me! I dropped something and knocked the canopies off the 'Geasel', chipping some of the paint in the process. Now I must do some touch up, recement the clear parts in place, if I can ever get back into the hobby room! I managed to knock an open bottle of enamel paint off the desk onto the carpet last night. I cleaned it up using mineral spirits, but the oder of the "low oder" thinner was to much to handle and today I am spending my B-day shampooing the carpet to control the smell! Now the carpet is wet and I can't work!

I am by no means an expert on superglue, I use Gator, but I just had a thought

your problem is caused by too much Kicker, or "not enough superglue?"

maybe get your bottle of debonder handy, and then drop superglue onto the excess Kicker, when it's all hardened up from getting the balance right again,, hit it with debonder the next day to get it all off of there chemically?

back in the "old days" at a fibreglass factory I worked at, we'd have more than our share of "hot cups" caused by too much hardener in the cup of patching resin, if we realized it soon enough, we'd dump the cup into a larger bucket of resin, getting the balance better and "cooling off" the mixture before it "went hot" on us

just thinking out loud here

Rex

Finally, after 4 months, the Geasel seems ready to gloss coat!

And the "F" has gained a nose and the port intake:

I experimented with that dark gray on the wing tip....

Also, that intake just wouldn't line up correctly, now it is stepped. Out comes the sanding sticks I guess....

Hi Jim,

Glad to see you were able to get back to the workbench after the "oil spill".  That is nice work work on both your Phantoms!  I will be glad when my skill level improves so that I can be more productive than I am now.

This may be old news to some folks but I just found out last night that Xtracolor makes gloss enamel in FS colors.  That would eliminate the need of putting on the clear gloss coat just to put on the decals.  The only problem with that is I live in the United States and can't find a local dealer.  I could order from Hannants but they have a minimum dollar amount you have to order before they will ship to the United States.  Does anyone know where I could order Xtracolor here in the U.S.?

Here is the current status of my cockpit.  I have used enamel thinner to remove the affected paint.  There is more cleanup to do, so this is just the first pass:

I will work on cleaning it up some more today.

Ken

Ken:

I did a little searching for you and every time I came up with Hannets as a source. Some hobby shops may carry it but that doesn't help you. Seems Testors is the Big Dog here in the USA and distributors may be unwilling to stock a product that may have little demand here. Maybe someone else here may know of one.

Jim

Roll Models is the US source for XctraColor and Xctacrylics

http://www.rollmodels.net/standard/catalog.htm

the best way to insure you order "from stock" instead of the "available to order " list is to call them with your CC number,,,,,,,that way you get 100% of what you talk about on the phone

I've used them for years,,,,,,lately in a 50/50 mix with Sprue Brothers

Rex