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The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

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  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Friday, January 28, 2011 5:16 PM

berny13 wrote the following post on Friday, January 28, 2011

These are quite old, but it will give you a look at how to load up the F-4.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/berny13/F4Chart3.jpg

Berny,

a dumb question, but the two Sparrow(?) missiles in forward fuselage positions 4&6, why are they 'toed' in a bit like that rather than mounted parallel with the center line?

Tx

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Friday, January 28, 2011 5:19 PM

Thunderbolt379

Service message -- could we maintain the standard thead name? It just keeps it clerarer when you look at the morning's slew of forum posts, as to what's happening on the boards. Please post on from here rather than selecting "reply" on previous posts carrying the alternate title.

Cheers, Mike/TB379

Hey sorry about that Mike, Surprise

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by Thunderbolt379 on Friday, January 28, 2011 5:23 PM

Rex -- page 1 updated, that's an impressive and ambitious lineup!

Bocks -- no worries!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

http://worldinminiature.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    July 2008
  • From: USA California
Posted by vetteman42 on Friday, January 28, 2011 6:07 PM

Thanks Mike Yes Man this kit has a gazillian decals !!!!!!!!!!!! Its gonna take a week just to put those on Indifferent

Randy So many to build.......So little time

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Friday, January 28, 2011 6:33 PM

RAG:  That is a fine looking cockpit you put together.  Very nice!

Jimbot:  Looks like your "Geasel" is coming along very nicely.

Berny:  Thank you for the load out literature.  Very good information indeed.

Rex:  Those saw blades that you suggested showed up today.  Do you suggest cutting the base resin off of the parts before or after painting them?  I am guessing on the large parts like the cockpit and seats to cut it off first before painting and on the small parts, painting then cutting them off.

I would have to say out of all the Group Builds I have read, this one has to be one of the most informative if not the most informative.  Great material.

I have been really busy with "non" modeling chores this week, but I will have my paint booth completed by the end of this weekend.  When I have enough done to take a picture of, I will post them here.

Ken

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Friday, January 28, 2011 7:14 PM

Ken, that is how I do it,,,,,,I figure if I need to touch up on a tiny part, that's okay,,,,,,,and once you saw loose the large parts,,,,,,superglue it to something as a "holding stick",,,,use your debonder later to remove it,,,,,keeps the finger oil off

pretty cool looking tool, ain't it?

there's an attachment I want to get for it,,,,,,it spaces the blades out in parallel for cutting strips of plastic to your own spacing,,,,,,it also looks possible to mount two Xacto blades to one in parallel for cutting thin strips of decal to make your own stripes,,,,I haven't tried that yet, but, I will someday

I guess I better make out a little "goodie order",,,,,,I need some of that Talon Int'l Orange for my drones

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: State of Mississippi. State motto: Virtute et armis (By valor and arms)
Posted by mississippivol on Friday, January 28, 2011 8:29 PM

Hey ya'll,

I was looking through the Squadron catalog, and saw the PM Models F-4E on sale for $1.99 in the odd 1/96 scale. If I have some putty left over.....

Glenn

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: New Zealand
Posted by Rough as guts on Saturday, January 29, 2011 2:00 AM

Sparrowhyperion - cockpit transfers OOB. Feels like cheating, but I could never paint all those dials,switches and thingamajigs. This is my first Hasegawa kit and I'm impressed with overall quality compared to cheaper brands

Berny13 - Cheers for the heads up on the seat colours. I checked back on the photos you posted and yeah I got it way wrongEmbarrassed

www.kiwimodeller.com

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Exeter, MO
Posted by kustommodeler1 on Saturday, January 29, 2011 2:16 AM

mississippivol

Hey ya'll,

I was looking through the Squadron catalog, and saw the PM Models F-4E on sale for $1.99 in the odd 1/96 scale. If I have some putty left over.....

Glenn

Some putty? Better start with a new tube...... I have that one. It's a mess. I may attempt to finish it, but Holy Moly!!  It IS however  worth the $1.99 for the decals as it includes Turkish air force decals in both 1/96 AND 1/72 scale, and they are really well printed. If a fella wanted a Turkish Phantom in 1/72 scale go ahead and get it. You can use them on any other manufacturer's 1/72  -E Phantom.

 

.

Darrin

Setting new standards for painfully slow buildsDead

  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by jimbot58 on Saturday, January 29, 2011 4:00 AM

Mike/TB379 Which button should we be using? There is "Reply' and then "Quick Reply" down below...

Any who....Here is the "F" cockpit so far:

Parts are actually just resting there and have not been cemented in place yet, and minus sticks and seats.

And speaking of those seats, I have been trying to figure out those seat colors! Kit calls out for :Olive Drab/GS H52 (Head Rest), Khaki Green GS H80 (Seat Back) and Khaki  GS H81 (Seat). Checking my other kits, Fujima calls for all over Olive Drab and Italeri's calls for something called Beret Green available in the little square bottles. (I have some of this, and I think it would be great for Christmas decorations! Too green!) An image search on the net yielded even more confusing results. I found images that showed all green, and some others that actually had a green on top, Khaki seat back AND black for the seat! Do colors vary with different models and between USN/USMC, USAF, and even Luftwaffe versions?????

I'm so very confused!

*******

On my workbench now:

It's all about classic cars now!

Why can't I find the "Any" key on my keyboard?

 

 

 

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by Thunderbolt379 on Saturday, January 29, 2011 5:50 AM

Jimbot -- use the standard "Reply" but make sure your post is a reply to a messge -- any message -- with the official thread name. Nothing to it! Smile

Cheers, M/TB379

http://worldinminiature.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    August 2009
  • From: Toledo Area OH
Posted by Sparrowhyperion on Saturday, January 29, 2011 9:19 AM

If anyone is still looking for kits.  There is an eBay seller that has 3 F4 kits at a really low price.  He has a Hasegawa 1/48 FGR.2 like my kit, item number 110639258886.  He also has a Hasegawa FG.1 1/48 kit, Item number 120675122232.  And lastly he has a 1/48 Monogram F-4C/D kit in 1/48, Item number 120675130190.  The first of these is going to be over about 10 hours after I am posting this which makes it sometime after 8:15 EST, the last will be over a few hours later so if you still need a kit for the build, check them out.  The sellers ID is camsoupy123.

In the Hangar: 1/48 Hobby Boss F/A-18D RAAF Hornet,

On the Tarmac:  F4U-1D RNZAF Corsair 1/48 Scale.

  • Member since
    March 2009
  • From: Middletown, OH
Posted by Buffirn on Saturday, January 29, 2011 9:53 AM

Bockscar

Berny,

a dumb question, but the two Sparrow(?) missiles in forward fuselage positions 4&6, why are they 'toed' in a bit like that rather than mounted parallel with the center line?

Tx

While I am not an aeronautical engineer, I think, purely opinion only, that the toe-in was to better conform to the airflow around the cockpit and engine intakes.  I'm sure that there is an expert out there who will answer your question and steer me straight.

 

Jim

Jim Williams

 

  • Member since
    January 2011
Posted by Rascal 1957 on Saturday, January 29, 2011 11:20 AM

Hi

 Id like to thorow my hat in the ring with two builds,what do I do to list these and contact others for tips,insite and doing my best.

 

                                           Thanks

                                            Rascal1957

Tags: Rascal1957
  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by jimbot58 on Saturday, January 29, 2011 11:59 AM

Rascal 1957

Hi

 Id like to thorow my hat in the ring with two builds,what do I do to list these and contact others for tips,insite and doing my best.

 

                                           Thanks

                                            Rascal1957

Just simply post here what you would be adding to the build (Manufacture, scale, version, out-of-box or with aftermarket parts or any other details you wish to add), TB will update the first page. After that, just reply with your comments, questions and progress you are making on your builds. Simple to join in!

*******

On my workbench now:

It's all about classic cars now!

Why can't I find the "Any" key on my keyboard?

 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Saturday, January 29, 2011 12:00 PM

Buffirn

 

 Bockscar:

 

 

Berny,

a dumb question, but the two Sparrow(?) missiles in forward fuselage positions 4&6, why are they 'toed' in a bit like that rather than mounted parallel with the center line?

Tx

 

 

 

While I am not an aeronautical engineer, I think, purely opinion only, that the toe-in was to better conform to the airflow around the cockpit and engine intakes.  I'm sure that there is an expert out there who will answer your question and steer me straight.

 

Jim

I was wondering. If, on the other hand, the 'toe' was do to some kind of hard-point internal issue, then maybe you'ld have to say they sacrificed aerodynamic efficiency for payload requirements.

Sounds good so far Jim, thanks.

Dominic

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Saturday, January 29, 2011 1:47 PM

Bockscar

a dumb question, but the two Sparrow(?) missiles in forward fuselage positions 4&6, why are they 'toed' in a bit like that rather than mounted parallel with the center line?

Tx

There is a very slight toe in but not as drastic as the illustration shows.  It is done so the missile wells follow the contour of the forward fuselage.  Also, if they went straight back, the missile forward wing recess would extend into the intakes causing air flow problems. 

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Saturday, January 29, 2011 1:53 PM

I have all of the resin parts soaked and clean and was planning on working on the cockpits today.  Then our daughter dropped of the two youngest grandmunsters so they could go to a suprise birthday parts that was planned at the last moment.  The wife has them outside right now but they will soon start following me around.  Such nice weather today, already into the 70's.

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Saturday, January 29, 2011 1:57 PM

There may be an aeronautical reason for that toe in, but, it must be just another place the Phantom design was "bent to work"

Drawings of the F3H-G/H show 9 hardpoints, with no Rear ones, the two outer fuselage ones were parallel then, and had missile trapezes that deployed down before missile firing. They also were rated for bomb carriage. At the time, and the AH-1's time, there still was no area rule in the design, definitely not on the J-65 side yet. Looking at the bottom of your kit,,,,you'll see that the missiles will lay right along and parallel to the outside edge of the fuselage,,,,,,but just slightly wider apart at the rear

looks for all the world to me that in the course of their little, "bend up the aircraft" routine that Phantom went through,,,,,,the missile mounting was the first area "screwed up" by the requirements by keeping the front fins to the inside of the intake ducting, while trying to keep the rear fins to the outside of the ducting

our friend went through a lot at first,,,,,,,,,9 pylons on F3H-G/H, 11 pylons on AH-1, back to 9 stations on F4H-1, a nose that fit, then the bigger radar made the nose larger and drooped, inlet faring, replaced by  a dozen splitter plate mods, nice clean wing and tail design,,,,,then, "bend this up, and bend this down",,,,all with a pair of engines larger than the original J-65's

Part of the fun of building these, though,,,,,,,,,they kept right on doing it to the design,,,,,,change the tail, change the flaps to slats, pin these flaps closed,,,,,,,change the main gear with two different "bump ideas",,,,,,RHAW, no RHAW,,,,gun and no gun

I think they did it just so model companies could sell more kits, though,,,,,knowing there'd be doofuses that would want to build each version,,,,,,,creating larges stashes of kits

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Saturday, January 29, 2011 1:59 PM

haha, 3 replies in the thread while I was typing away

slow Tingers at work,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,hmm,,,,,,I need to make one of those yellow signs for my work area

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: Australia
Posted by Helo H-34 on Saturday, January 29, 2011 5:17 PM

I was wondering what would the weapons load out on these three Vietnam F-4 Phantoms ?

F-4C 366TFW Gunfighters AF40806 "CW"

F-4D 8TFW Wolf Pack "WP"

F-4E 388THW "JJ' , "JV" and 4TFW "SB' , "SA" , "SC" ....

I thought I should sort out what armament to use on each Phantom first before I add the kits to the workbench !

                            John .

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:51 PM

berny13

 

 Bockscar:

 

 

a dumb question, but the two Sparrow(?) missiles in forward fuselage positions 4&6, why are they 'toed' in a bit like that rather than mounted parallel with the center line?

Tx

 

 

 

There is a very slight toe in but not as drastic as the illustration shows.  It is done so the missile wells follow the contour of the forward fuselage.  Also, if they went straight back, the missile forward wing recess would extend into the intakes causing air flow problems. 

Thanks again Berny. You are so right about it not being too drastic, I didn't even notice it on my Flugel until you posted those great ordinance charts.

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:59 PM

TarnShip

There may be an aeronautical reason for that toe in, but, it must be just another place the Phantom design was "bent to work"

Drawings of the F3H-G/H show 9 hardpoints, with no Rear ones, the two outer fuselage ones were parallel then, and had missile trapezes that deployed down before missile firing. They also were rated for bomb carriage. At the time, and the AH-1's time, there still was no area rule in the design, definitely not on the J-65 side yet. Looking at the bottom of your kit,,,,you'll see that the missiles will lay right along and parallel to the outside edge of the fuselage,,,,,,but just slightly wider apart at the rear

looks for all the world to me that in the course of their little, "bend up the aircraft" routine that Phantom went through,,,,,,the missile mounting was the first area "screwed up" by the requirements by keeping the front fins to the inside of the intake ducting, while trying to keep the rear fins to the outside of the ducting

our friend went through a lot at first,,,,,,,,,9 pylons on F3H-G/H, 11 pylons on AH-1, back to 9 stations on F4H-1, a nose that fit, then the bigger radar made the nose larger and drooped, inlet faring, replaced by  a dozen splitter plate mods, nice clean wing and tail design,,,,,then, "bend this up, and bend this down",,,,all with a pair of engines larger than the original J-65's

Part of the fun of building these, though,,,,,,,,,they kept right on doing it to the design,,,,,,change the tail, change the flaps to slats, pin these flaps closed,,,,,,,change the main gear with two different "bump ideas",,,,,,RHAW, no RHAW,,,,gun and no gun

I think they did it just so model companies could sell more kits, though,,,,,knowing there'd be doofuses that would want to build each version,,,,,,,creating larges stashes of kits

Rex

And so true as well about the 'bends.' Indeed Rex, I was so concerned the nose of my Flugel didn't conform to the bend I went and performed all of that Rhino Plasty.

I don't want to tax too much of your time Rex, but I've always been a huge fan of the F-101 Voodoo. Looks to me that's where they started, then gave it a bend here, big intakes there, move the stabs around, oh, we need another bend. I've always wondered how they got the engines to line up with the centre of gravity like that. Again, all of these shapes make the F-4 such a unique looking bird.

Thanks

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Sunday, January 30, 2011 9:41 AM

Bockscar

Again, all of these shapes make the F-4 such a unique looking bird.

Thanks

We didn't call it "Bent wing, broken tail, coal burner, ace maker" for nothing.     Wink

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: State of Mississippi. State motto: Virtute et armis (By valor and arms)
Posted by mississippivol on Sunday, January 30, 2011 11:44 AM

" don't want to tax too much of your time Rex, but I've always been a huge fan of the F-101 Voodoo. Looks to me that's where they started, then gave it a bend here, big intakes there, move the stabs around, oh, we need another bend. I've always wondered how they got the engines to line up with the centre of gravity like that. Again, all of these shapes make the F-4 such a unique looking bird."

Bocks,

You could go all the way back to the original Phantom and Banshee. It looks even more like the F3H Demon of the '50's. Seems McDonnell had a design philosophy that permeated all their designs. It's kind of a trademark of McDonnell aircraft up until the Eagle came along.

Glenn

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:59 PM

mississippivol wrote the following post on Sunday, January 30, 2011

Bocks,

You could go all the way back to the original Phantom and Banshee. It looks even more like the F3H Demon of the '50's. Seems McDonnell had a design philosophy that permeated all their designs. It's kind of a trademark of McDonnell aircraft up until the Eagle came along.

Glenn

Glenn,
It's true, the demon looks like a sibling alright. When I get some time, I'ld like to look up the design teams, there was a theme at work for sure.
Dominic

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Sunday, January 30, 2011 6:00 PM

"It's true, the demon looks like a sibling alright."

The original concept was a follow on to the Demon, that is why it was F3H-G/H.

McDonnell was up to the same things with that designation as North American was with the FJ-4, and Grumman with it's "F9F-9" Tiger (not kidding)

some of the aircraft got totally new designations, and some slid on by like the FJ-4 did (very little in common with the FJ-3's)

and yes, if an Air Force and a Navy tractor driver each got drunk and crashed the Voodoo into a Demon,,,,,,,the AH-1/F4H-1 would very likely come out when another guy came along and repaired them, lol

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Sunday, January 30, 2011 7:08 PM

TarnShip

"It's true, the demon looks like a sibling alright."

The original concept was a follow on to the Demon, that is why it was F3H-G/H.

McDonnell was up to the same things with that designation as North American was with the FJ-4, and Grumman with it's "F9F-9" Tiger (not kidding)

some of the aircraft got totally new designations, and some slid on by like the FJ-4 did (very little in common with the FJ-3's)

and yes, if an Air Force and a Navy tractor driver each got drunk and crashed the Voodoo into a Demon,,,,,,,the AH-1/F4H-1 would very likely come out when another guy came along and repaired them, lol

Rex

Holly cow, Rex, look what they got when they sobered up:

Demon meets Voodoo,

Dominic

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by Thunderbolt379 on Sunday, January 30, 2011 7:30 PM

GRIN -- is that a Voomon or a Dedoo? I shouldn't make jokes like that, I've always thopught the F3H-G configuration was a beautiful design that would make an absolute dynamite sport plane to this day... Would love to scratchbuild her at large scale!

M/TB379

http://worldinminiature.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:42 PM

there's a good sized drawing of that in the Ginter Demon book,,,,,,shows the interchangeable mission noses,,,,,storage diagram onboard ship, etc,,,,,,pretty cool deal

the AH-1 with one J-79 and one J-65 is on my "conversion someday" list,,,,,,,,It was a blue mockup,,,,,,,I think of it every time I look at one of my Revell Blue Angel kits from the old 4 pack days, lol

Lots of Navair subjects to get to before I get that far, though,,,,,,,and it's behind the F-4A variations, I'm afraid

Tooo many aircraft versions and real prototypes to do before I get to doing mock ups,,,,,,although I do get tempted

Rex

almost gone

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