The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

Awwww No badges with an FGR.2 on them???  wwwwaaaaaaaa..... lol

How about something like this?

:)

Rich

I am thinking of starting one and calling it the "Do the Hustle" group build. 

Rich

Thunderbolt379

Dominic -- that's right, four J-79s.Ii once heard the F7F Tigercat described as being like two Corsairs flying in close formation, and that would make the B-58 two Phantoms flying awful close!

Is there interest in a B-58 group build developing here? If so, I'd sure think about taking part, as I have half a dozen Hustlers in my stash, across six scales, some of them fit-the-box...

Cheers, M/TB379

Underside color?

I'm about to paint some sub-assemblies, I'm not quite clear on the color under the F4-J. I've seen pictures with a white color and others appear to be a very light gray?? Top color is Gloss Gull Gray but I have also seen what it looks like a Neutral Gray. I'm confused, help!!!

Also let me share this link, might be useful

what year or other info on your F-4J?

forget the sheen for a moment, but, unless you are doing a very late TPS NavAir bird,,,,,,it's Light Gull Gray on top, and White on the bottom, with White on all control surfaces, top or bottom

if the date is right, you might also see your bird in overall Light Gull Gray, with White still inside of the doors and wells as before,,,,,,,,,the dates also dictate the sheen, but, I cheat and make all mine overall satin,,,,,not much point in getting some of the sheens right,,,no one has ever built a Phantom model with ALL the sheens right that I have ever seen

but, early days,,,,,,Flat Light Gull Gray topside, Gloss White underside and control surfaces, and inside wells, etc,,,,,,,later in the early seventies, Gloss top and bottom

the Gloss wore into a more Flat look with service wear,,,,and the Flat sort of "boot polished" up into a more Glossy look,,,,,,,hence my choice of Satin, that meets both in the middle

Rex

edit, just scrolled on back and saw you are building the F-4J Warlords,,,,,,,if that is the AA tail code for the Bicentennial, that time period makes it Gloss Light Gull Gray on top, and Gloss White in the white places,,,,,,,,,and I left out part of your color question,,,,,,,any photos you see of NavAir birds that appear to be "some gray" on the underside,,,,,,are either just shadowing on an early jet, or the same Light Gull Gray as the top on a late jet,,,,,,,except for the Tactical Paint Scheme jets,,,,,,,those are so tough to call that even kit makers and decal printers hardly ever agree, lol

Sparrowhyperion

I am thinking of starting one and calling it the "Do the Hustle" group build. 

 

Rich

 

 

Thunderbolt379:

 

Dominic -- that's right, four J-79s.Ii once heard the F7F Tigercat described as being like two Corsairs flying in close formation, and that would make the B-58 two Phantoms flying awful close!

Is there interest in a B-58 group build developing here? If so, I'd sure think about taking part, as I have half a dozen Hustlers in my stash, across six scales, some of them fit-the-box...

Cheers, M/TB379

 

 

Gents;

If I win the lottery I'm going to Old Model Kits and and I'll tell Al I want all of his B-58 inventory!

I'm in!

8 stashed, 3 WIP's, 5 scales, I should save my Hustler notes for the group build, many stories to tell...

My F-4 Flugel just got another coat of putty, but it's getting thinner.

Rich I spilled 2 oz of acetone on my desk, no cat, just me...I was thinning the Testor's putty...

Mike/TB379: Many thanks to the Digital Diva for the great badges!

Ouchies....  I hope the Acetone didn't get on anything valuable.  I know what that stuff can do to plastic...  If I start a B58 build, it won't be until I at least get a couple of my others started.  I'm in 3right now, but one is a crossover with another one (Secret Santa and Too Many Props builds, 1/32 Revell BF110).  The third is the F4 Build.  So maybe at the end of Feb or first week of march, I might start one.

Rich

TB379

 

 

Gents;

If I win the lottery I'm going to Old Model Kits and and I'll tell Al I want all of his B-58 inventory!

I'm in!

8 stashed, 3 WIP's, 5 scales, I should save my Hustler notes for the group build, many stories to tell...

My F-4 Flugel just got another coat of putty, but it's getting thinner.

Rich I spilled 2 oz of acetone on my desk, no cat, just me...I was thinning the Testor's putty...

Mike/TB379: Many thanks to the Digital Diva for the great badges!

Hi Everyone!

I just started on my F-4E.  The first order of business is repairing the throtle control sticks by gluing them back onto the cockpit.  It took quite a bit of adjusting with my "Helping Hands Octopus" and some tape, but I finally got it where I think it should be.  I placed some CA on it, and now I am waiting before I move anything just to be sure the CA is diry.

On the note of a Hustler build, you can totally count me in!  A very cool bomber to be sure.

That is good news Mike that your part of the country is not getting all that rain.  I feel for those who are suffering through it.

Right now I am so wore out from shoveling snow.  I would be perfectly fine if I never saw another snow flake for the rest of my life!

Well, I will let you know how the control sticks fair in a little while.

Ken

Sparrowhyperion

Ouchies....  I hope the Acetone didn't get on anything valuable.  I know what that stuff can do to plastic...  If I start a B58 build, it won't be until I at least get a couple of my others started.  I'm in 3right now, but one is a crossover with another one (Secret Santa and Too Many Props builds, 1/32 Revell BF110).  The third is the F4 Build.  So maybe at the end of Feb or first week of march, I might start one.

Rich

 

 

TB379:

 

 

 

Gents;

If I win the lottery I'm going to Old Model Kits and and I'll tell Al I want all of his B-58 inventory!

I'm in!

8 stashed, 3 WIP's, 5 scales, I should save my Hustler notes for the group build, many stories to tell...

My F-4 Flugel just got another coat of putty, but it's getting thinner.

Rich I spilled 2 oz of acetone on my desk, no cat, just me...I was thinning the Testor's putty...

Mike/TB379: Many thanks to the Digital Diva for the great badges!

 

 

Hey no rush Rich, I'm still battling the scars on the Flugel.

Luckily I keep lots of shop towels handy...and the fan was going full blast...and 2 oz is the max volume on my bench...I threw the towels out the door, that took care o f 80% of it.

Thank gosh I was a WHMIS coordinator in a past life.

Luckily no damage to any styrene, but I sure didn't want to 'inhale.'

Today I glued in the fuselage liners to correct the tolerance issue, the port liner took 36 minutes to shape. I had to re-align the instrument panel of all things...

I can hear Superbowl revellers outside and the game hasn't eve started!

Well it looks like the repair was successful.  Here are a few pictures:

Now I need to wash the resin and let it dry over night.  Tomorrow is when it gets serious.

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

Well it looks like the repair was successful.  Here are a few pictures:

 

 

Now I need to wash the resin and let it dry over night.  Tomorrow is when it gets serious.

Ken

Serious Ken;

More detail in your cockpits than my entire 1/32 build.

Dominic

Thunderbolt379

Dominic -- that's right, four J-79s.Ii once heard the F7F Tigercat described as being like two Corsairs flying in close formation, and that would make the B-58 two Phantoms flying awful close!

Is there interest in a B-58 group build developing here? If so, I'd sure think about taking part, as I have half a dozen Hustlers in my stash, across six scales, some of them fit-the-box...

Cheers, M/TB379

J79's changed the dog-fight world by adding another dimension: Straight up!

F-4's could fight in 3 dimensions, and given the pilot's tolerances could change the entire playing field in a dog fight..

I think that adding a whole vertical fight-spce to dog fighting made the F-4 a supreme dog-fighter.

i just cannot believe it was SHORT-SOLD because technocrats thought the gun -era was over!

XYZ -- ROLL PITCH YAWH -- GIMMEE Y -- ROCK N' ROLL!

Yeah well, lots of guys died trying to take advantage of another dimension. 

In my mind the  F-4 is the vertical game changer in dog-fight history, corrections appreciated...

Dominic

TarnShip, thanks for your elaborated explanation. Your time is well appreciated. It matches as well with previous post from Berny. I just wanted to double chec because like I said, I've seen pictures where the Phantom looks kin of light gray. Here a few examples:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/mcdonnel-douglas-f-4-phantom-ii-1.jpg

http://www.foxco-2ndbn-9thmarines.com/f-4phantom.gif

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/gallery/images/f4/d4c-118012-2.jpg

http://members.chello.nl/m.waterloo/images/f-4j/f-4j-phantom_155759.jpg

Here is a picture update of my WIP. Most of the available time has been on the cockpit. I've been scavenging the Verlinden Resin Kit to detail a bit the stock cockpit of my Tamiya 1/32 Phantom. I decided not to use the PE radar and accs. There are a lot of PE parts on the fret that are not mentioned on the instructions sheet, so I have no idea what are they for or go.

El Taino:  Your Phantom is looking very nice!  Good job so far!

Ken

Bockscar

 

 

 

J79's changed the dog-fight world by adding another dimension: Straight up!

F-4's could fight in 3 dimensions, and given the pilot's tolerances could change the entire playing field in a dog fight..

I think that adding a whole vertical fight-spce to dog fighting made the F-4 a supreme dog-fighter.

i just cannot believe it was SHORT-SOLD because technocrats thought the gun -era was over!

XYZ -- ROLL PITCH YAWH -- GIMMEE Y -- ROCK N' ROLL!

Yeah well, lots of guys died trying to take advantage of another dimension. 

In my mind the  F-4 is the vertical game changer in dog-fight history, corrections appreciated...

Dominic

There's only one thing to remember about the Phantom's dog fighting capabilities, is that the Phantom has to fight at high speed to be effective. In order to alleviate that slight disadvantage to an extent,  the leading edge maneuvering slats came to be designed and fitted.

Newer craft like the Eagle, Tomcat, SU-27, MIG-29 can still slow down and turn inside the Phantom if the Phantom pilot gets his speed scrubbed off. He has to dive away and re-engage when the speed is back up.

kustommodeler1

Bockscar:

 

 

 

J79's changed the dog-fight world by adding another dimension: Straight up!

F-4's could fight in 3 dimensions, and given the pilot's tolerances could change the entire playing field in a dog fight..

I think that adding a whole vertical fight-spce to dog fighting made the F-4 a supreme dog-fighter.

i just cannot believe it was SHORT-SOLD because technocrats thought the gun -era was over!

XYZ -- ROLL PITCH YAWH -- GIMMEE Y -- ROCK N' ROLL!

Yeah well, lots of guys died trying to take advantage of another dimension. 

In my mind the  F-4 is the vertical game changer in dog-fight history, corrections appreciated...

Dominic

 

 

There's only one thing to remember about the Phantom's dog fighting capabilities, is that the Phantom has to fight at high speed to be effective. In order to alleviate that slight disadvantage to an extent,  the leading edge maneuvering slats came to be designed and fitted.

 

Newer craft like the Eagle, Tomcat, SU-27, MIG-29 can still slow down and turn inside the Phantom if the Phantom pilot gets his speed scrubbed off. He has to dive away and re-engage when the speed is back up.

Not so.  The F-4 would take the whole state of Texas to turn at high speed.  The F-4 used one trick to gain speed.  It was called "Unload" where the pilot would pull negative G's and select max AB on both engines.  The result was very rapid acceleration.  At low speeds the Phantom could turn very sharp but could not keep up its air speed when doing so.  By turning, unloading, and max AB, it could pull more G forces than the lighter Mig-17 & 21.  The F-4 could then gain the advantage or excape if needed.  In a zoom none of the Migs could match the F-4.  Another dog fighting move the Phantom used was the zoom, split S, and roll back on to the enemy aircraft.  The crew often used the term "Yankin, bankin, turnin, burnin" when talking about a dog fight or DACT.

Supersonic dog fighting is done only in Hollywood.  The ideal speed for engagement is around 400-450 KTS.  At that speed the F-4 could hold its own, but not for long.  That is why Phantom crews tried to avoid dog fights, relying on BVR missile kills. 

Well, as of right now there is STILL 5 inches of snow on the ground, and only slightly above freezing, so I'm stuck on the build for a bit. Cant paint in the house due to wife's athsma, and late tonight thru tomorrow night we are supposed to get another round of snow, they are guessing 4 to 6 inches.

Did I mention I'm tired of winter?

Oh well, I'll post progress when I can show some, in the meantime I'm doing work on kits for the Monogram Mafia GB

Same here with the snow.  I usually use our enclosed front porch for painting, but it's so cold out that the electric heater I normally use out there, can't keep up.  So I am doing what assembly I can for the various GBs I'm in.

kustommodeler1

Well, as of right now there is STILL 5 inches of snow on the ground, and only slightly above freezing, so I'm stuck on the build for a bit. Cant paint in the house due to wife's athsma, and late tonight thru tomorrow night we are supposed to get another round of snow, they are guessing 4 to 6 inches.

 

Did I mention I'm tired of winter?

 

Oh well, I'll post progress when I can show some, in the meantime I'm doing work on kits for the Monogram Mafia GB

Berny:  What is the FS color to use for the cockpit of a Vietnam era F-4E?

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

Berny:  What is the FS color to use for the cockpit of a Vietnam era F-4E?

Ken

FS36231

If Berny said it was FS36231 would you believe him without any research on your part?

Dean

f-4phantom

If Berny said it was FS36231 would you believe him without any research on your part?

Dean

Yes I would.  His experience while in the Air Force working on the F-4 coupled with his knowledge of model building makes him an expert on the subject in my book.

Ken

berny13

Son Of Medicine Man:

Berny:  What is the FS color to use for the cockpit of a Vietnam era F-4E?

Ken

 

FS36231

Thank you Berny, I appreciate the information.

Ken

I am so glad that we have Berny here to set the world straight on everything about the F-4. In my time in the U.S.A.F. , I found out that the smartest people in the U.S.A.F. were crew chiefs!  Just ask Berny!  I've been trying to keep my mouth shut about this but I can't. Everything that Berny says, is not always gospel. If you guys think that he wrote the McDonald Douglas Tech Orders on the Phantom.......he didn't. Don't let him get away cheap. Now he's got you wanting to believe he was flying them. Next thing you know, he will start expounding on load factors on the control surfaces in certain conditions and which compression stage is the most important on the J79. I thought when I joined this group build it might be a problem with Berny's immense knowledge overpowering the build. To me, it is a problem. At this point , I will pull out of this build and leave it to the expert.

Dean

f-4phantom

I am so glad that we have Berny here to set the world straight on everything about the F-4. In my time in the U.S.A.F. , I found out that the smartest people in the U.S.A.F. were crew chiefs!  Just ask Berny!  I've been trying to keep my mouth shut about this but I can't. Everything that Berny says, is not always gospel. If you guys think that he wrote the McDonald Douglas Tech Orders on the Phantom.......he didn't. Don't let him get away cheap. Now he's got you wanting to believe he was flying them. Next thing you know, he will start expounding on load factors on the control surfaces in certain conditions and which compression stage is the most important on the J79. I thought when I joined this group build it might be a problem with Berny's immense knowledge overpowering the build. To me, it is a problem. At this point , I will pull out of this build and leave it to the expert.

Dean

Wow, Dean, I really didn't mean to step on any toes.  I have just had several conversations with Berny in the past and he has always been helpful.  My own father was a crew chief a better part of his 20 year career in the United States Air Force.  I have the upmost respect for any person who has served in the military, and that does include you.  I would be more than happy to ask you questions about the F-4.  I really can't get enough hearing about everyone's experience in the service.  I think it would be great to hear about some of your experiences.

I would really feel bad if you left this build because of something I said.  I apologize for upsetting you.

Ken

I'm sorry you feel that way, Dean, I had hoped there would always be room for discussion among the experts, such as that between Berny and Rex, from which we enthusiasts have benefited enormously. I'd be sorry to lose your expertise. My sister in law was a Phantom crew chief in Alaska, the first woman in the job in the USAF, and I find her stories of handling F-4Es in arctic conditions always enthralling, but that doesn't mean I'll discount the experiences of anyone else. The last straw for you was a statement that FS 36231 was the cockpit colour, a response Berny made to a question aimed directly to him, and I would have posted the same information as it is what my various references have usually said, often enough that I would take it as a given. In your experience, were F-4 cockpits during the Vietnam era painted otherwise? If they were, please do share your knowledge!

If you want out, I'll remove you from page 1, but I hope you'll reconsider.

Best wishes, Mike/TB379

Ken.

I'm not leaving it because of you. Don't take offense. But, just because someone tells you one thing doesn't make it so. Do the research. Berny has become the Guru on this build. Why do research? He tells you what to do. Where did this become "do what he says build".

Dean

Dean.

I have only been on the Forums for a couple of months.  In that time, I have learned that we have some true gems of knowledge here.  And I think we should all be thankful for that.  I was a dumb grunt, not a flyboy, but I have always been fascinated by aircraft of any type.  I have been learning a lot from a lot of people, but Berni has some firsthand knowledge that is hard to come by.  Every little bit of advice he has given people has been correct.  I have never seen him tell someone how to do something.  He simply gives info as he remembers it from many years of living it.  I for one am grateful.  He has helped me a lot.  I plan on further tapping his vast store house of knowledge when my Revell kit arrives.   There is nothing wrong with asking someone who has been there.  And personally, if I can save twenty hours of looking for some obscure bit of info because someone I can ask has it, then I would rather be building than sifting through a zillion Google hits and separating the real info from the Viagra ads (Except for the one with the Red Head...)  Um.  eh...  Anyways. I'm sorry you decided to pull out of the build but remember that you don't have to follow advice if you don't want to.  For some people it's the thrill of the info hunt, and there's nothing wrong with that,  but some of us like me who has a somewhat spastic brain at times, need all the help we can get. :)   I thank every member of this forum for their help and information.

Rich

(Typographical errors provided at no additional expense...)

f-4phantom

Ken.

I'm not leaving it because of you. Don't take offense. But, just because someone tells you one thing doesn't make it so. Do the research. Berny has become the Guru on this build. Why do research? He tells you what to do. Where did this become "do what he says build".

Dean

I would hope that a simple color question that 8 people would have answered correctly wouldn't then have to be researched to double check

now, if he had said 36081 or something,,,,,,yep, people would have cried foul, and then we'd have to cite sources, etc

I'm enjoying the heck out of bouncing things off of an AF guy,,,,note that it doesn't help my own builds all that much, but, I'm hoping that in the course of us "bench racing" back and forth, that others are getting something out of it

heck, you could have joined in it,,,,,as a Jarhead, I'm used to being outnumbered,,,,,,lol

it is sort of only natural to ask the guy that's posted an ordnance TO, pics of his own model, and color ejection seat pics (especially since the cockpit site seems to have been removed from online)

you should stick around,,,,,,,you could laugh along with the others when I post the cockpits from these 5 kits,,,,,,,,I am getting realllllly jealous that I didn't just "grab a sixpack" of Fujimi kits like one guy did, haha

Rex

Hope this doesn't anger people, but I am actually here to enjoy my hobby and construct my F-4 kits.  So far I see ideas I like, info I use...but I do my own research.  If information differs between what I see on here and what I discover on my own, I use my research because...well...I did the research. As far as I know, this is a group build, NOT a drama fest....just saying is all.  Everyone keep having fun, relax, and enjoy the build.