The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

Hi Dean, I am really glad to hear back from you.  I do honestly do research apart from what Berny has said.  In fact, in this build if you look for discussions I was having with Berny about the load out on my F-4E, I discovered that there was a version of the Bullpup missile that was an anti-personnel weapon.  Berny openly admitted that he didn't know that and that his experience with F-4's in Vietnam was repairing and not with loading munitions.

I agree that there can not be one person who knows everything about any subject.  For instance, even though I work in the computer field, there is no way I can say I know everything about computers.

Anyway, I really would like to hear your opinion on any subject that you have knowledge of.  I am sure that you have a lot of information we could all benefit from.  I really hope you reconsider and stay in the build with us.

Ken

Mike,

The FS # wasn't the problem. The problem is that some might believe that whatever Berny says is correct without doing the research. Berny stated several pages back that the builder should do research to make the modeling experience more correct. I took that out of context but you get the idea

Dean

Well, as luck would have it, I don't have any FS36231.  I made a point of ordering every color listed in the Hasegawa instruction sheet.  But since I am not using Mr. Color, I had to use conversion charts to get the FS colors.  Somewhere I dropped the ball.

The paint is ordered.  I used Sprue Brothers since they are always so fast at shipping their orders out.  I would guess it will be here Thursday, Friday at the latest.

Ken

for any of you that are building "real" Phantoms,,,,,,you gotta look at this link

http://www.hyperscale.com/2011/reviews/books/airdocf4bookreviewrk_1.htm

it's beginning to look like Double Ugly may one day have a full set of books to go along with Daco and Jake's,,,,,should make a pretty good library compared to the ancient books I have on my shelves

hehe, sorry about the "real" jab, but, it's a book about the Gray ones,,,,,,and umm, ermmm, umm,,,,,I "might" be a bit biased

Rex

What Blue for the Warlords?

My Tamiya 1/32 says X4 for the nose cone and other details on the Warlord, I looked around my paint stash and have it from a previous build. However this blue seems too deep. I've been looking around the web with no luck. Looking at the on-line Acryl chart, I think that the closest match is Cobalt Blue 4612. Any help will be more than welcome.

f-4phantom

I am so glad that we have Berny here to set the world straight on everything about the F-4. In my time in the U.S.A.F. , I found out that the smartest people in the U.S.A.F. were crew chiefs!  Just ask Berny!  I've been trying to keep my mouth shut about this but I can't. Everything that Berny says, is not always gospel. If you guys think that he wrote the McDonald Douglas Tech Orders on the Phantom.......he didn't. Don't let him get away cheap. Now he's got you wanting to believe he was flying them. Next thing you know, he will start expounding on load factors on the control surfaces in certain conditions and which compression stage is the most important on the J79. I thought when I joined this group build it might be a problem with Berny's immense knowledge overpowering the build. To me, it is a problem. At this point , I will pull out of this build and leave it to the expert.

Dean

Dean, I am sorry if I upset you.  For your information, I get a lot of information about the F-4 from several books I have.  I have the -1 flight manual of the F-4D and F-4E in my collection.  I also have the F-4 crew chief hand book and weapons hand book put out by McDonald Douglas.  No I didn't write the F-4 Tech orders and I did not fly them.  I did get four flights in the F-4 during my time working on them.  My experience on the F-4 covers over twenty years of working on them from crew chief to maintenance superintendent.  I spent almost a total of four years in SEA, first as a crew chief on the RF-4C in Vietnam, a crew chief on the F-4D in Thailand, a year and a half with the F-4 RAM support team from Hill AFB and six months TDY from Eglin AFB for Linebacker.  As a supervisor, I have had to de brief a lot of air crews, so yes I did learn a lot about the flight characteristics.  I worked two years in Quality Control where I set up functional check flights where part of the job was researching and reading the flight envelope graphs in the -1 flight manual.  As far as load factors on the control surfaces, you will have to ask a MDD engineer as I have no idea. 

I am not an expert on the F-4 but I do know quite a lot about it.  The F-4 is a complex piece of machinery that no one person has all the knowledge.  It took a team of specialized engineers to design the aircraft.

If I want information on a M-60 tank, I ask someone who has worked on them.  I couldn't tell you squat about the different model numbers of the M-60 tank but there are members on this forum that can.  Does that make them an expert?  If they have worked on it than yes it does. 

Would it make you more happy if I stopped responding to questions or offering advice in the group build. From now on I will keep my opinions off of the group build.  Now, lets go have a cold one together and solve the worlds problems.   

El Taino

since you are already searching around the Testors charts for an Acryl,,,,,,,take a look at the Floquil Military and Railroad Acryl tabs,,,,,,,,,there are a lot more blues over there,,,,,,,some are close enough to the range from 15050 to 15042 that I am going to get them and match them up to chips to see how they turn out,,,,,,,RR Bar Blue is "supposed" to be a good enough match for 15050 Blue Angel Blue that I am going to start there

the problem with paint games is that if you get a RR color that you don't end up using, you have a full ounce of it,,,,,,,,,but, on the other side of that coin, for every one that is right for you, you end up knowing how to get 1 ounce for only a dollar more than 1/2 ounce of any other color,,,,,,,right now that means 5 dollars and change for an ounce, versus 8 dollars for two 1/2 ounce,,,,,,,so, I'm willing to play "color match 2011" for awhile, hah

It's a whole lot like being stuck in a time warp when Floquil RR was all we had,,,,,,,,but, I'm going to keep doing it so that I have matches to keep going with as the other paint lines shrink or dry up (bad pun)

Rex

kustommodeler1

 

Bockscar:

 

 

 

 

J79's changed the dog-fight world by adding another dimension: Straight up!

F-4's could fight in 3 dimensions, and given the pilot's tolerances could change the entire playing field in a dog fight..

I think that adding a whole vertical fight-spce to dog fighting made the F-4 a supreme dog-fighter.

i just cannot believe it was SHORT-SOLD because technocrats thought the gun -era was over!

XYZ -- ROLL PITCH YAWH -- GIMMEE Y -- ROCK N' ROLL!

Yeah well, lots of guys died trying to take advantage of another dimension. 

In my mind the  F-4 is the vertical game changer in dog-fight history, corrections appreciated...

Dominic

 

 

 

There's only one thing to remember about the Phantom's dog fighting capabilities, is that the Phantom has to fight at high speed to be effective. In order to alleviate that slight disadvantage to an extent,  the leading edge maneuvering slats came to be designed and fitted.

 

Newer craft like the Eagle, Tomcat, SU-27, MIG-29 can still slow down and turn inside the Phantom if the Phantom pilot gets his speed scrubbed off. He has to dive away and re-engage when the speed is back up.

kustommodeler1

Thanks for the info. I was a bit overenthusiastic, and that might have been somewhat due to the Super Bowl refreshments I was obliged to imbibe in, and I was in a rush, pardon the pun.

My rough opinions were formed over a few years of listening to pilots and 'experts' in media like the Military Channel, DVD's, and various magazines and other publications.

I am far from being an expert, and I really appreciate the views and knowledge of those who have offered it here. I'll never know it all, so every bit helps me appreciate an aircraft I have some passion for.

I realize the more advanced aircraft you mentioned were designed specifically with the shortcomings of the "higher, faster" 50's interceptor paradigm in mind. 

I didn't know the slats were installed on the F-4 specifically to help it in low-speed combat, I always think of slats as helping aircraft when they take-off or land.

Thanks 

Dominic

Hey Guys, still trying to finish up some other GB's before I get going here.  All the Phantom stuff here has got me chomping at the bit! 

I'm sorry to see some of this turn personal.  Berny, please continue to help.  I have several F-4 books, but none are complete and not all books are accurate.  No one understands the nuances of something like those who actually wrenched on them.  You have been a big help to many people here, and in the last Phantom GB.  You have never been anything but helpful.  Guys, there are nit pickers and rivet counters out there, but Berny isn't one of them.  If you personally don't trust the source, then don't use the info.  Don't discourage us from helping each other.  That is the one of the points of a "Group Build".  Oh well, my two cents wasn't asked for, but I guess I gave it anyways. 

Cheers,

Greg

berny13

 

kustommodeler1:

 

 

Bockscar:

 

 

 

J79's changed the dog-fight world by adding another dimension: Straight up!

F-4's could fight in 3 dimensions, and given the pilot's tolerances could change the entire playing field in a dog fight..

I think that adding a whole vertical fight-spce to dog fighting made the F-4 a supreme dog-fighter.

i just cannot believe it was SHORT-SOLD because technocrats thought the gun -era was over!

XYZ -- ROLL PITCH YAWH -- GIMMEE Y -- ROCK N' ROLL!

Yeah well, lots of guys died trying to take advantage of another dimension. 

In my mind the  F-4 is the vertical game changer in dog-fight history, corrections appreciated...

Dominic

 

 

 

There's only one thing to remember about the Phantom's dog fighting capabilities, is that the Phantom has to fight at high speed to be effective. In order to alleviate that slight disadvantage to an extent,  the leading edge maneuvering slats came to be designed and fitted.

 

Newer craft like the Eagle, Tomcat, SU-27, MIG-29 can still slow down and turn inside the Phantom if the Phantom pilot gets his speed scrubbed off. He has to dive away and re-engage when the speed is back up.

 

 

Not so.  The F-4 would take the whole state of Texas to turn at high speed.  The F-4 used one trick to gain speed.  It was called "Unload" where the pilot would pull negative G's and select max AB on both engines.  The result was very rapid acceleration.  At low speeds the Phantom could turn very sharp but could not keep up its air speed when doing so.  By turning, unloading, and max AB, it could pull more G forces than the lighter Mig-17 & 21.  The F-4 could then gain the advantage or excape if needed.  In a zoom none of the Migs could match the F-4.  Another dog fighting move the Phantom used was the zoom, split S, and roll back on to the enemy aircraft.  The crew often used the term "Yankin, bankin, turnin, burnin" when talking about a dog fight or DACT.

Supersonic dog fighting is done only in Hollywood.  The ideal speed for engagement is around 400-450 KTS.  At that speed the F-4 could hold its own, but not for long.  That is why Phantom crews tried to avoid dog fights, relying on BVR missile kills. 

Hey Berny, thank you for that knowledge, maybe offered at some cost to yourself.

I know some of the guys here made a life working with these aircraft, or serving, and I'm just happy to sit back and listen and benefit from the cumulative hundreds of years of experience I'll never get first-hand.

I'm grateful to hear other's opinions especially when they offer things I don't know or may be different than what I've heard, and I wish they would actively do so. Everyone can post their thoughts.

I sure would feel awful, and lots of other guys as well, if you denied us your insights and expertise because you've decided to stop commenting.

Best Regards,

Dominic

Thanks a lot Rex, I went to my local hobby shop with my mind set up on the Acryl Cobalt Blue. I was not that far from home when I realized that I left the decal sheet, so I turned back to pick it up. I've got my F4J from the auction place for $59 (I'm a patient bidder). So I don't know how long has been stored. Counting that decal colors might fade a bit over time, my closest match was Polly Scale GN BIG SKY BLUE (F414203).

I placed a drop on the decal sheet to test, I dare to say that it is around a 90% match. Airbrush application might even bring it closer. Good thing I didn't go with the Acryl Cobalt Blue, it was way off...

Cheers!

I got my resin parts all primed.  I was ready to start on painting the cockpit tub and other cockpit parts when I found the paint was dried out.  I'll have to make a trip to Hobby Lobby and get a few bottles, if they have the correct color on stock.  If not, it will one of those hurry up and wait times.

OK guys, what do you think? Here is a test with the Poly Scale GN Big Sky Blue straight from the bottle. It has a coat of Acryl Semi-Gloss Clear which I'll be using to seal the model.

El Taino -- I wouldn't quibble at that -- given the potential variation in the printing of the decals you can't rely on them being a 100% accurate tone either, and if we're down to a few percent difference then you've already nailed the colour. I'd use it without hesitation.

Cheers, Mike/TB379

El Taino

OK guys, what do you think? Here is a test with the Poly Scale GN Big Sky Blue straight from the bottle. It has a coat of Acryl Semi-Gloss Clear which I'll be using to seal the model.

El Taino

I agree with Mike, looks good, and when you seal it my guess is it will pull even closer.

BTW, The light green on your bench top looks like the 80's drafting mat on mine. For a second there I couldn't believe I was building such a nice kit!

Dominic

Hi Berny,

By all means don't stop expressing yourself or giving your opinions.  I know you have helped me many times over and I appreciated every bit of it.  I think it is fantastic that you are so patient to answering probably the same quetions a hundred times by different people.  And I am quite sure with the total of four F-4s I plan to build I will be asking you more as well.  And to top it off you also have a very good store of information as to which kits are best for each version of F-4.  Here's to you Berny!

Ken

I think I have the stabilizers where I want them now. I moved on to find some legs for my Rhinoplastied friend. I found some nosegear/wheels, and main gear legs from a Fujimi kit; the main gear doors, main gear wheels, and long nose gear door are Monogram. I raided a Hasegawa kit for the burner cans and front nosegear door. Now it's on to find a couple of chaps that would be brave enough to fly her. It still seems that the more I do, the further I am from getting some paint down. At some point I need to quit, but it's a target rich enviroment!

Glenn

An update of my WIP thus far:

I have been a bit busy lately, with the weather and a lot of time taken up with an elderly parent, so work goes slow.

The "F" nearly has the the office complete:

It's hard to tell from this photo, but the head rests are a dark green. I found a couple of photos on the net showing the "F" seats being dk. green on top, tan or 'khaki' backrest, and black for the seat itself. The belts are painted masking tape. The rings on top are a bit ragged, but the best I could do with my eyesight and stiffening fingers. I did my best "That looks about right!" as to the color matches from the on-line photos.

The rest of major parts are coming together and some of these have been cemented up since I took this photo:

I marked a couple of spots on the upper wing halves where there are two of those holes you would drill out if something was to be mounted there like pylons or drop tanks would be beneath the wings.. I never knew of anything mounted on top of the wings...I wonder why Hasegawa placed them there?

And the 'Geasel' Work is slow. I just redid the left wing as the pattern was way off.

 The right side patterns on the fuselage don't look right either and I will need to do some correcting there as well...So fun trying to transfer 2 dimensional drawings onto a 3 dimensional aircraft body!

Plus I see I need to do some filling around those square cover there towards the back!

Sorry if my little 2 megapixel camera doesn't take the greatest pictures.

Nice progress, Jimbot, that pit looks great! It goes to show that careful painting and some scratched belts dress up even basic kit seats, and in 1:72 I defy anyone with normal eyesight to not see a great result!

I've been doing some basic building on my Hasegawa RF-4B, I'll wait until some paint arrives to begin the pit. Right now it's fuselage, wing, droptanks, tail tip, that sort of thing.

I was looking at the Hasegawa 1:48 F-4J "Showtime 100" edition in my stash earlier, and really getting the call to build... If I can get that much-talked-of but still-to-be-built display case together, I might just throw that one into the mix before the end of Rhinomania II...

Cheers, Mike/TB379

Nice job on the cockpit jimbot58.  Looks very good. 

As luck would have it Hobby Lobby was out of the paint I needed.  The manager told me their supply of paint should arrive early next week.  I think I'll start on painting the engines. 

Nice work on the seats jimbot58, nice camo pattern too!

Thanks guys for looking around the WIP. Here is mine from last night and today.

I had to write on the white paper a reminder, DON'T FORGET the nose weight.

I have been working with sub-assemblies and now it started to look like a plane in the last hour.

There was a tiny gap between fuselage and wings. I taped the wings and used Tamiya Ultra Thin cement. I will wait 'till tomorrow.

Looking good so far El Taino.  Great job on the stabs.  First rate. 

Well, it looks like I can finally get some building accomplished.  My 1/48 Eduard cockpit PE kit for the FGR.2 AND my new 1/48 Revell F-4C kit arrived today.  Altho9ugh when it arrived, it turned out to be a Monogram kit..   I think it must just be a post merger kit.  In either case, it looks pretty good. I am going to wrangle either the Wifey or my Daughter to help with some fine detail painting I can't do myself anymore, on the seats.  The PE set makes the FGR.2 a lot easier.  It has a very detailed cockpit and without the PE parts, and my painting skills, it would have come out nasty.

Nice work on the cockpit jimbot!  Especially for 1/72 scale!

El Taino, your ride looking is looking pretty sweet!

I hope my Phantom will be looking half as nice as both of yours!

Hey Berny, I am in the same spot as you, waiting for my paint to arrive.  At the last look at the tracking information, it was processed through the sort facility in Des Moines, IA at 10:08 AM this morning.

While I am waiting for the paint, I am going to start working on masking the cockpit tonight.  From my past experience painting cars, it is as important as the paint job itself, but the most boring.

Ken

Okay, I tried to start masking the resin cockpit, but the masking tape will not stick to the resin.  I did wash the resin with mild dish soap and thoroughly rinse it and it is completely dry.  Is there something I am missing here?

Ken

I found one web page that describes washing the resin parts.  On that page it states that you need to use isopropyl alcohol to break the silicon mold release agent loose from the parts before washing them with the soapy water.  And of course I do not have any isopropyl alcohol in the house.  It is too late in the evening to be going out to get some, so I will have to wait and pick some up on the way home from work tomorrow evening.  Another lesson learned.

Ken

Ken,

I heard Wesley's Bleach White, an automobile tire cleaner, may do the trick as well if you have some hanging around the garage.

I'm really enjoying the WIP pics, El Taino/Jimbot! Your builds look really good!

Glenn

Excellent work on those cockpit's guy's

The level of detail is awesome

                                John .

I'm glad you mentioned the nose weight......better add some as I just started cementing more pieces together!