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The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

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  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by Thunderbolt379 on Thursday, January 6, 2011 11:18 PM

Thanks, Jimbot -- most interesting! 34079 as the starting green -- I'd have picked 34087 as Olive Drab has that yellow hue and photos of Norm 72 schemes in bright sunshine show up with a definite olive tone, which 34079 doesn't have.

In the FS system, the lower the number the darker the shade (IIRC), so adding black to a shade ending in 117 would take you away from 132, not toward it -- unless I'm mistaken??? It's a real puzzle and I'm somewhat amazed that even after nearly forty years none of the major manufacturers have produced exact matches for these shades!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

http://worldinminiature.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by jimbot58 on Friday, January 7, 2011 3:36 AM

I found this website with some really great photos of the F-4F. Here the green does look more dark than olive, but some photos I have seen do have that olive look. It's hard to tell, but bottom seems to be painted with a lighter color of gray rather than nat metal.

 

http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36600&start=0

*******

On my workbench now:

It's all about classic cars now!

Why can't I find the "Any" key on my keyboard?

 

 

 

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by Thunderbolt379 on Friday, January 7, 2011 4:48 AM

That's a great link, Jimbot, and I see what you mean, they're very well-lit photos with what seems extremely natural colour balance: the green doesn't have an olive cast and the grey doesn't have a blue cast. I think these pics could be very trustworthy, and suddenly I can indeed see 34079 being the start point for that green. Hu 92 might be a good match for the grey too. I think I'd be inclined to try some acrylic mixing and see how close I could get...

That Phantom schemes site indicated that the Norm 72 scheme could feature either silver or grey for the underside, and the grey "feels" righter than silver, I'll have a very hard time applying chrome silver to a Phantom!

I think we've nearly got this Luftwaffe scheme cornered -- thanks for your research efforts!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

http://worldinminiature.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Friday, January 7, 2011 8:40 AM

mississippivol

Jim,

That's some good photos from a cell phone camera! Lookin' forward to seeing more.

On a side note, I got an early start on my project (the Revell 1/72 "B" that I'm converting into a "C"). I dropped the outer flaps on the wings and am now cutting out the speedbrakes to make some new, dropped ones. There's a couple of engine doors under the fuselage that I'm planning to cut out and drop as well. Looks like I'll have to box in a front gear well as well as the main gear wells, too. I reshaped the nose a bit, and put a shim on the bottom of it to get the nose pointed at a more correct angle, but it's goin' to take a lot of putty. I sanded off all the panel lines, and I'll probably use a pencil to draw in the new ones for the sake of time.

Glenn

 

Glenn,

After studying some prints from the starboard or port view I found that for the F4F the very tip of the nose is inline with the relatively flat spot at the bottom-middle of the aircraft's fuselage, which gives the nose of the aircraft its classic look.

When I placed a long ruler under the Revell's fuselage, the only thing pointing away from the belly centre-line was the angle of the exhausts, the nose was pretty much a straight projection without much of an angle.

I decided to drop the radome attachment until the point of the nose lined up with the belly and fill with sheet styrene and putty. I also noted that the nose section is a bit wider than anything I see in photos, but removing that is a lot harder than adding to it.

Dominc

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Friday, January 7, 2011 1:44 PM

guys, I am sorry for misleading anyone on F-4B's,,,,,,,I apparently mixed something up the first time I ran the "version combos" through,,,,,,,I stated there were 6 variations,,,,,,and so far, I've found 11, with 1/3 of the pics sorted through,,,,,,,all I am sure of today is that all 18 possibilities were not used

that will teach me to talk in absolutes, eh?

oh, well, I'm sure that people don't take my scribblings and use them to build their models, anyway

I will continue to shoot the parts and post them, so you can see what the part looked like in real life

again, I apologize if   I mixed anyone up on his model

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: State of Mississippi. State motto: Virtute et armis (By valor and arms)
Posted by mississippivol on Friday, January 7, 2011 4:45 PM

kustommodeler1

Monogram released the C/D kit once in the "High Tech" series with some PE parts included, and markings of my home state, the Arkansas Air Guard Flying Razorbacks. This release was the one who's decals included the badge painted on the actual bird "TAC's Oldest F-4".

 

There was one on Oldmodelkits.com a while back and it got away......Sad

I found one of those at the LHS last year. I picked it up to go with an Arkansas Guard F-100 I built a long time ago. I don't think the decals are going to make it, though.

Glenn

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: State of Mississippi. State motto: Virtute et armis (By valor and arms)
Posted by mississippivol on Friday, January 7, 2011 4:52 PM

Bockscar-Thanks for the heads up. This li'l bird is starting to be a poster child for plastic surgery!

Rex- Lookin' back at the box, it doesn't have the ARN-101 on the spine, but it does have the two bumps on the 'chute door. I used to know what those were about.

Glenn

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Friday, January 7, 2011 6:59 PM

Glenn, I'll need Berney to confirm or refute this for you, but, if those chute bumps are "large" ones, they would be the RHAW antenna for AN/ALR-46

For you F-4F guys, I've found some info for your "silver" undersides,,,,,,,,,,,first off, it's not BMF, the Phantom is the aircraft that caused the AF to abandon BMF on the Thunderbirds,,,,,,too nasty looking with all the different panel colors,,,,,,I have some "bare" Phantom pics of F-4D's and E's,,,,,,,,would be cool to model one as a "one off"

In a very old Airfix magazine article, there was talk of the "Silber Grau" used on the F-4F (you *could* convert one of the Airfix to an F,,if you really wanted to),,,,,,,,then in 1972 in the Aircam Aviation series, the F-4F drawings in there are labeled as Pale Gray for the undersides

in Sovereign Series Phantom by Stewart Wilson, there are some color photos,,,,,,,,,,and they look like a "silvery" version of a Lt Gray, about 16473 or 36495 or so, with a hint of silver in it,,,,,,,,there is a pic in "Spirit in the Skies" also,with an F-4F testing the MW-1 and VBW dispensers,,,,,,,looks like a very light gray

so, for my notes for when I get to the early F-4F testing the MW-1, I'm going with one of those two grays with a little bit of silver mixed in

hope that helps some

Rex

 

almost gone

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Ontario Canada
Posted by Mobius118 on Friday, January 7, 2011 7:12 PM

is it possible for me to still get in on this?
if so i have a 1/72 Revell RF-4E 1985 Tigermeet Phantom. im actually building a couple as well as CF104's F-16's, tornado's etc, all tiger aircraft in honour of their 50th anniversary in may, which im saving up to go to in Cambria France.

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by Thunderbolt379 on Friday, January 7, 2011 7:23 PM

Rex -- thanks for the research! My gut was telling me no F-4s would have served in natural metal and if silver was ever involved then it was paint! Right, 36495 is a standard shade, it can be metallicised!

Mobius118 -- by all means, this is a year long event, welcome aboard! I'll log your build on page 1 right away.

Cheers, MIke/TB379

http://worldinminiature.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: Indiana
Posted by hkshooter on Friday, January 7, 2011 9:47 PM

Yea for me! I think.
I scored a 1/48 Testors "G" off of ebay for $10. Seller says it has German markings as an option and I got it for less than many others I've been looking at. I hope the kit is decent.

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by Thunderbolt379 on Friday, January 7, 2011 9:57 PM

Good win, HK! Testors boxing, could be Italeri or Fujimi plastic, most likely raised lines and there could be a few issues with fit and detail, but with care it should build into a good looking bird!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

http://worldinminiature.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Ontario Canada
Posted by Mobius118 on Friday, January 7, 2011 10:36 PM

oh i need to make a correction after doing some research on my Phantom ive now received conflicting results on the year that my phantom is dated for. ive googled it and gotten both 84 and 85, the instructions say 85, but its old Revell Germany so who knows. this is the exact model below

 

sometimes the internet as a resource is bloody useless

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by Thunderbolt379 on Saturday, January 8, 2011 6:30 AM

Mobius -- 84, 85 -- the scheme may have appeared on consecutive years -- mabe?

Rex -- The suggested Tamiya equivalent for RAL 7012 is XF-24 and I was sceptical as I've seen some very wide-of-the-mark suggestions for matches across paint ranges, but today I was looking at some XF-24 I sprayed as part of a grey and green camo scheme about a year ago. Under a bright white light the grey had a distinct bluish hue that was comfortably in the range for RAL 7021. Given FS 34079 as the starting point for RAL 8001, I matched the grey against the Tamiya closest match on 34079, XF-13 Japanese Army Green, and viewed together under a good light they were visually pretty close to what I'd expect to see in the Norm 72 scheme-- close enough that I'd be willing to mix from there.

I think I have a viable paint choice for Norm 72... What's your impression???

Cheers, Mike/TB379

http://worldinminiature.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Neenah, WI
Posted by HawkeyeHobbies on Saturday, January 8, 2011 8:48 AM

Here's a little inspiration for you guys...

 

Here is another place you can find great F-4 images!  http://www.fencecheck.com/forums/index.php/topic,21062.0/topicseen.html

Gerald "Hawkeye" Voigt

http://hawkeyes-squawkbox.com/

 

 

"Its not the workbench that makes the model, it is the modeler at the workbench."

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Saturday, January 8, 2011 11:27 AM

Mike, can you make 3 paint chips on plastic card and post them here? That way, everyone could see what you mean,,,,,,it sounds like you might "have it" to me,,,,,but, I'd have to mentally convert from Tamiya to Polyscale,,,,,,,I think I "see" in my head that you have it

Hawkeye,,,,,,,,were those two at the same show?,,,,,,,,I have to get back home and go to Oshkosh one of these years,,,,,,it's so close to Wis Dells, I could stay at an Aunt's farm for free and drive over for the show,,,,,,,,,first, I'd have to get my tail up to Wis from TN, though, lol,,,,,,,,but, to hear and feel a Phantom again,,,,,,,it would be worth it

those pics do inspire,,,,,,,but, they inspire me to change to AF jets from out of my "comfort zone" of Gray,,,,,,,the AF had lots of just plain great weapons loadouts

you got me thinking of HOBOS on a D, PAVE's and Lgb's on a D, etc, etc,,,,,,,,,sigh

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Neenah, WI
Posted by HawkeyeHobbies on Saturday, January 8, 2011 11:44 AM

The F-4C is from the Collins Foundation. The F-4E is an active USAF (target drone) bird that makes the rounds to airshows.These were taken at this past years AirVenture 2010

Gerald "Hawkeye" Voigt

http://hawkeyes-squawkbox.com/

 

 

"Its not the workbench that makes the model, it is the modeler at the workbench."

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: State of Mississippi. State motto: Virtute et armis (By valor and arms)
Posted by mississippivol on Saturday, January 8, 2011 12:35 PM

Thanks for the pictures, Gerald. I was able to see one at Millington, TN a few years ago. It didn't put on much of a show until it landed with it's hook extended b/c it was having unspecified problems. It was great to see it fly. I'm surprised they still use them with the budget cutbacks.

Glenn

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: State of Mississippi. State motto: Virtute et armis (By valor and arms)
Posted by mississippivol on Saturday, January 8, 2011 12:47 PM

Finally got some WIP photos to show. All of the white under the wings is scrap plastic. I boxed in the front gear bay, the main gear bays and the speedbrake area that I cut out. I also put a couple of ribs in the main gear bay, though they aren't 100% the right shape. The other photo shows the scrap plastic added to get the nose up. I still don't think it's quite there yet, and I have the sensor to add underneath. The last photo is an Italeri "S" I finished last summer.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Between LA and OC, SoCal
Posted by oortiz10 on Saturday, January 8, 2011 1:47 PM

First of all, thanks to Berny for donating the pylons.  They landed in my mailbox this morning, and I greatly appreciate the contribution.  

 

Secondly, below are the pix I promised Rex I’d post.  

 

 

First, the inboard pylons.  The "curved" USAF version, and the "straight" USN version.

 

 

 

Here are the two centerline pylons.  The “long” USN version, and the “short” USAF version.

 

 

 

Now, the outboard pylons.  I don’t know which are the USAF and which are the USN version.   If you notice, the ones on the right have a “notch” cut out of the trailing edge, while the ones on the left don’t.  

 

 

 

In the very limited (and half-arsed) research I’ve done, it appears that the “notched” pylons are the USAF version, and the straight ones are the Navy’s.  One thing I tried to do was use the kit’s instructions to help clear up my confusion.  I took a look at Hase’s 1/48 –B/N versus –C/D’s instructions, but they weren’t much help.  Turns out the outboard wing tanks have the notched pylons molded onto them in both the –C/D boxing I have (Egypt 1) and the –B/N.  Not only that, but the –C/D & -B/N instructions aren’t very clear on which pylons (not) to use if modeling a jet without the outboard tanks.

 

-C/D instructions say not to use either the nothched or straight pylons at all…

 

 

…while the –B/N instructions don’t say which ones not to use.

 

 

So I wonder, if the notched outboard pylons are USAF and the Navy’s are straight (or vice versa), why is only one style molded onto the tanks in both the Navy (–B/N) & USAF (-C/D) boxings (at least the Egypt 1 boxing)?  Anyone have any insight into this?

 

Cheers!

-O

 

 

-It's Omar, but they call me "O".

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Exeter, MO
Posted by kustommodeler1 on Saturday, January 8, 2011 2:22 PM

The Collings Foundation has a couple of nice Ds:

http://www.collingsfoundation.org/Houston/tx_f-4dphantom_pics.htm

 

Darrin

Setting new standards for painfully slow buildsDead

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Saturday, January 8, 2011 2:25 PM

O, thanks for posting those pics,,,,,I didn't have a good shot of an AF centerline kit pylon before

about those outer pylons,,,,,I used D&S  C/D and Naval for this,,,,,,,all (not) the outerwing pylons have the rear notch, for weapons or tanks

the difference is the AF used the pylon on the left with a notch cut out, angled as in a pic I posted for weapons,,but with  the pylon already attached to their tanks

the Navy used the pylon on the right, with the "weapons shoe" for weapons, and used the same pylon for tanks, without the shoe

hah, what all that means to us,,,,,,if we put a Mer on the AF,,,,,we mount it "flush, but with a small airgap, and angled outward",,,,,,and if we put one on the Navy, we mount it "straight", but with a shoe on there making it point down a bit at the nose,,,,,,,,,,both get tanks that are "straight"

but, the notches do show up very clearly on all the outerwing pylons (on the early jets),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and right after I typed that, I went and looked and found 5 pics of Not-Notched outerwing pylons on an F-4G, F-4J(UK), F-4EJ and an F-4J, the G had an LAU on it, the others had tanks, some pics are on the same page as notched 'sister' aircraft

so, I don't know about the notch, maybe it's an early/late thing?

gottta love Phantomology,,,,,it should be a Master's Program

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Neenah, WI
Posted by HawkeyeHobbies on Saturday, January 8, 2011 2:36 PM

kustommodeler1

The Collings Foundation has a couple of nice Ds:

http://www.collingsfoundation.org/Houston/tx_f-4dphantom_pics.htm

 

A couple of pics or a couple of aircraft...I'm aware of them owning only one aircraft.  They are trying to get an F-105, but are getting roadblocked by the USAF.

Gerald "Hawkeye" Voigt

http://hawkeyes-squawkbox.com/

 

 

"Its not the workbench that makes the model, it is the modeler at the workbench."

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Between LA and OC, SoCal
Posted by oortiz10 on Saturday, January 8, 2011 2:49 PM

TarnShip

...gottta love Phantomology,,,,,it should be a Master's Program...

 

Seriously, this Phantom stuff has me doing more homework than some of my classes...and I'm supposed to be on semester break! 

I thought a hobby was supposed to get my mind off the minutiae?  What happened to resting the grey matter?

-O

 

 

-It's Omar, but they call me "O".

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Saturday, January 8, 2011 2:55 PM

well, I just went "stash diving" looking for AF Centerline Pylons,,,,,,,of all the different molds I have here,,,,,,all except two releases are Naval pylons, even Fujimi gives you Naval in their AF kits

only place in 1/72 that we can get AF C/L's is on the gun pod that Fujimi put in their F-4K and M kits,,,,,,the M kit is the only place with the strike camera too

so, it's time for me to dremel off a gun pod half, and back to the molding and casting I thought I was done with

and yes, I looked in them all,,,,,,I have at least one of every mold made in 1/72,,,,,,,thank goodness for you 1/48 and 1/32 guys and your parts pics, lol

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Saturday, January 8, 2011 4:44 PM

oortiz10
First of all, thanks to Berny for donating the pylons.  They landed in my mailbox this morning, and I greatly appreciate the contribution.  
 
Secondly, below are the pix I promised Rex I’d post.  
 
 
First, the inboard pylons.  The "curved" USAF version, and the "straight" USN version.
 
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee129/oortiz10/DSC07153.jpg
 
 
Here are the two centerline pylons.  The “long” USN version, and the “short” USAF version.
 
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee129/oortiz10/DSC07152.jpg
 
 
Now, the outboard pylons.  I don’t know which are the USAF and which are the USN version.   If you notice, the ones on the right have a “notch” cut out of the trailing edge, while the ones on the left don’t.  
 
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee129/oortiz10/DSC07150.jpg
 
 
In the very limited (and half-arsed) research I’ve done, it appears that the “notched” pylons are the USAF version, and the straight ones are the Navy’s.  One thing I tried to do was use the kit’s instructions to help clear up my confusion.  I took a look at Hase’s 1/48 –B/N versus –C/D’s instructions, but they weren’t much help.  Turns out the outboard wing tanks have the notched pylons molded onto them in both the –C/D boxing I have (Egypt 1) and the –B/N.  Not only that, but the –C/D & -B/N instructions aren’t very clear on which pylons (not) to use if modeling a jet without the outboard tanks.
 
-C/D instructions say not to use either the nothched or straight pylons at all…
 
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee129/oortiz10/DSC07155.jpg
 
…while the –B/N instructions don’t say which ones not to use.
 
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee129/oortiz10/DSC07156.jpg
 
So I wonder, if the notched outboard pylons are USAF and the Navy’s are straight (or vice versa), why is only one style molded onto the tanks in both the Navy (–B/N) & USAF (-C/D) boxings (at least the Egypt 1 boxing)?  Anyone have any insight into this?
 
Cheers!
-O
 

 

For the outboard pylons, the ones on the left are USAF style with the right being USN style.  The Navy pylons also have a weapons adapter attached to allow ordenance to be carried.  The AF style has a bomb rack built into the pylon.   

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Saturday, January 8, 2011 5:04 PM

TarnShip

O, thanks for posting those pics,,,,,I didn't have a good shot of an AF centerline kit pylon before

about those outer pylons,,,,,I used D&S  C/D and Naval for this,,,,,,,all (not) the outerwing pylons have the rear notch, for weapons or tanks

the difference is the AF used the pylon on the left with a notch cut out, angled as in a pic I posted for weapons,,but with  the pylon already attached to their tanks

the Navy used the pylon on the right, with the "weapons shoe" for weapons, and used the same pylon for tanks, without the shoe

hah, what all that means to us,,,,,,if we put a Mer on the AF,,,,,we mount it "flush, but with a small airgap, and angled outward",,,,,,and if we put one on the Navy, we mount it "straight", but with a shoe on there making it point down a bit at the nose,,,,,,,,,,both get tanks that are "straight"

but, the notches do show up very clearly on all the outerwing pylons (on the early jets),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and right after I typed that, I went and looked and found 5 pics of Not-Notched outerwing pylons on an F-4G, F-4J(UK), F-4EJ and an F-4J, the G had an LAU on it, the others had tanks, some pics are on the same page as notched 'sister' aircraft

so, I don't know about the notch, maybe it's an early/late thing?

gottta love Phantomology,,,,,it should be a Master's Program

Rex

The 370 gallon wing tanks had the pylon as an intergal part of the tank.  It wasn't used for weapons carriage.  The tank and pylon was one assembly on all versions of the F-4.   The Navy style outboard pylon was an adaption of the tank pylon but required a weapons adapter attached to the pylon to carry any load, just like the inboard pylons used by the Navy.

All 370 tanks had the notched pylon so it could attach to the rear pylon attachment mechanism. 

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Exeter, MO
Posted by kustommodeler1 on Saturday, January 8, 2011 5:19 PM

HawkeyeHobbies

 

 kustommodeler1:

 

The Collings Foundation has a couple of nice Ds:

http://www.collingsfoundation.org/Houston/tx_f-4dphantom_pics.htm

 

 

 

A couple of pics or a couple of aircraft...I'm aware of them owning only one aircraft.  They are trying to get an F-105, but are getting roadblocked by the USAF.

 

Looking at the pics on the page, there are 2 different birds, maybe one's just visiting?

Darrin

Setting new standards for painfully slow buildsDead

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Saturday, January 8, 2011 6:14 PM

and that brings us full circle to "check your references",,,,,,as with all things Phantom, it seems

I wanted to see what Berney was saying,,,,,so, I went looking at pics again

found F-4C's with the weapons "shoe" holding a Mer full of bombs,,,,,found Naval aircraft with the pylon, and no shoe or tank,,,,,,found an RF-4B with a tank, and no notch

and remember that Naval outer pylons are "wet",,,,,,except for when one fails and allows Trotti's squadron to create what -314 called a "superbomber" (regs only allowed those if there was something irreparably wrong with the outer fuel system,,,,so,,,,,,,some "got broken", lol)

I'm positive that I agree with this part, though "AF tanks are mounted on intregal pylons",,,,seen enough "weapons lay out shots" with the tanks on trailers (pylon clearly attached) to agree with that statement, for sure

as I said, Phantomology is fun

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Saturday, January 8, 2011 6:19 PM

Darrin,,,,,,,,I think that is the same aircraft with different paint schemes, in different time periods of their ownership of it,,,,,something didn't seem "quite right" about the new pic he posted up,,,,,,it may be because of a repaint from the OY code to the new one,,,,,,,,,the serial number would have been changed to match the tail code

Rex

 

almost gone

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