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The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

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  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by Thunderbolt379 on Sunday, May 29, 2011 2:17 AM

Smile Why, Rex, I'm only a kid, I just turned 48... Vietnam was over before I hit my teens, but I worshipped the F-4 from infancy, and it's totally amazing for me to have made the acquaintence of those who served with her.

But I sure caught the scratchbuilding bug. I must upload a pic of a 200-hour build I did for a collector in Canada, an SF fighter jet in 1:72nd scale, with a Phantom alongside for scale. I have a list of 100 or more subjects I'd love to do from scratch, but I'll need to live at least 200 years to get through that lot. That's okay, I'm prepared to do that! Toast

I tried out the MM Acryls today, I laid the 36231 into the cockpits for the Fujimi -K and the Hasegawa -J, and I can say they behaved pretty well. They're a lot thinner than Tamiya acrylics so I thinned by a third instead of a half, and they took to Tamiya thinners very well. There's no odour and they cleaned up fine with water. I spotted no tendancy to tip-dry, which was a great plus, though I'll have to be very careful with coat density as they do seem to develop a lustre where the paint is thinner. No worries, really, I'll be using clear coats when I use them as exterior shades.

Now I can get to grips with those other Phantoms too, I finally have a way to do the Gull Grays without stinking out the house!

I think the -J box art is probably the best reference for the trunion covers, so I'll file them up from styrene at 3.5 x 10 x 1mm, and hopefully have those details completed, along with removing the slime lights and torsion box plates in the same timeframe as completing the cockpits.

Cheers, Mike/TB379

http://worldinminiature.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Sunday, May 29, 2011 2:22 AM

as the rest of the guys that served can tell you,,,,,,,you never know who you'll bump into and where,,,,,I had the "pleasure" of constantly bumping into my Uncles,,,or even before I was 18, getting told about times they bumped into each other,,,,,,,,,the funniest was on Okinawa,,,,,,Gunny Vic was the older of the two, and was on his way back from his first tour in Nam,,,,,,walked into a bar,,,,,,and there sat Bob, still only a S/Sgt on his way into Nam for his second tour, sipping a beer,,,Vic bellowed out with the usual "they'll let just any Jarhead in here,,,,,,,,insult, profanity, insult, insult,,,,etc",,,,,,Bob hopped up and swiveled, all set for another Marine v Navy barfight,,,,,,to end up staring at  his brother in law,,,,,,Vic stopped at our house in SoCal on his way to Wis and told the story,,,just days after Bob had visited before reporting to El Torro and shipping out

on Bob's last tour, he called and asked Dad if it he would bring "little Rex" down to El Torro for a bit,,,,,,,to "look at some airplanes",,,,,I went down, and saw my first  F-4 up close,,,,at the ripe old age of 13,,,,,,,, I was hooked

Vic retired before I turned 18, and lived near us, now in Wis again,,,,,,Bob got promoted to Gunny and transferrred to the MarTD at Glenview,,,,Bob took the weekend off and both took me to meet the bus for my trip to San Diego for Boot,,,,,,,,,,,after boot,,,,,,,I got posted to ,,,,,,,,,,,,Glenview,,,,,,,ackk,,,,,,,"see the world" and all that rot, and here I was working alllll the way down in the Chicago area,,,,200 miles our from place in central Wis

Bobby is still with us, he's only 12 years older than I,,,,,,,but, Vic has been gone now for 10 years,,,,,,,he's the only one gone of my Uncles and one Aunt that served in the various branches,,,so, he's the one I think of on Memorial Day

My time in Glenview was "unremarkable" in hindsight,,,,,,,various humorous incidents involving sitting next to the snowplow driver when he fell to sleep driving down the runway at 3 am,,,,,,and plinking off unimportant lights and such,,,,,,,or ummm,,,,,,ermmm,,,,,,,,I will neither confirm or deny that I was involved or knew who was involved in an incident where snow was rolled into a little sportscar parked on the even side of the road on an odd side night (I wasn't driving then, either)

the only story worth mentioning in all of this,,,,,,is after only 4 years as a Marine,,,,,,,,I suffered a unique form of "Phantom bite", involving jacks and a tow tractor (and a umm,,,Pvt),,,,,,,,,that tore my abdomen up and led to my discharge,,,,,,,sending Cpl Rex home to find a new career

I did get to go TDY a lot,,,,,,,but, I always seemed to be "home" in Glenview in the winter,and in such great places as Yuma in July

But, don't read me wrong,,,,,,,I loved almost every minute of it (except the first 13 weeks),,,,,,and if I had to do it over,,,,,,,I'd do it the same

this is so far off topic that it's not even funny,,,,but, Memorial day weekend does get me thinking

if you get the chance, build a vet a model, tank, plane or ship,,,,,,you'll enjoy that certain look on their face, believe me

Semper Fi Gunnery Sergeant Vic Herr,,,,and for all of your own "Vic's" out there, no matter which service or country

Rex

edited, the filter did NOT like my nickname for San Diego/Hollywood,,,,,,,,,,,,,,lol

and the reason for not including any of the "juicy and amusing" stories,,,,,,they all involved the men that came there to train, both Marine and Navy reservists,,,,,,,,,and I'll not disrespect any of them by telling those things this weekend,,,,,,our job was to keep things fixed so they could come in and "learn hands on",,,,those things were supposed to happen there, to keep them from happening in any certain forward area they'd be going to

almost gone

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Sunday, May 29, 2011 2:58 AM

TarnShip

as the rest of the guys that served can tell you,,,,,,,you never know who you'll bump into and where,,,,,I had the "pleasure" of constantly bumping into my Uncles,,,or even before I was 18, getting told about times they bumped into each other,,,,,,,,,the funniest was on Okinawa,,,,,,Gunny Vic was the older of the two, and was on his way back from his first tour in Nam,,,,,,walked into a bar,,,,,,and there sat Bob, still only a S/Sgt on his way into Nam for his second tour, sipping a beer,,,Vic bellowed out with the usual "they'll let just any Jarhead in here,,,,,,,,insult, profanity, insult, insult,,,,etc",,,,,,Bob hopped up and swiveled, all set for another Marine v Navy barfight,,,,,,to end up staring at  his brother in law,,,,,,Vic stopped at our house in SoCal on his way to Wis and told the story,,,just days after Bob had visited before reporting to El Torro and shipping out

on Bob's last tour, he called and asked Dad if it he would bring "little Rex" down to El Torro for a bit,,,,,,,to "look at some airplanes",,,,,I went down, and saw my first  F-4 up close,,,,at the ripe old age of 13,,,,,,,, I was hooked

Vic retired before I turned 18, and lived near us, now in Wis again,,,,,,Bob got promoted to Gunny and transferrred to the MarTD at Glenview,,,,Bob took the weekend off and both took me to meet the bus for my trip to San Diego for Boot,,,,,,,,,,,after boot,,,,,,,I got posted to ,,,,,,,,,,,,Glenview,,,,,,,ackk,,,,,,,"see the world" and all that rot, and here I was working alllll the way down in the Chicago area,,,,200 miles our from place in central Wis

Bobby is still with us, he's only 12 years older than I,,,,,,,but, Vic has been gone now for 10 years,,,,,,,he's the only one gone of my Uncles and one Aunt that served in the various branches,,,so, he's the one I think of on Memorial Day

My time in Glenview was "unremarkable" in hindsight,,,,,,,various humorous incidents involving sitting next to the snowplow driver when he fell to sleep driving down the runway at 3 am,,,,,,and plinking off unimportant lights and such,,,,,,,or ummm,,,,,,ermmm,,,,,,,,I will neither confirm or deny that I was involved or knew who was involved in an incident where snow was rolled into a little sportscar parked on the even side of the road on an odd side night (I wasn't driving then, either)

the only story worth mentioning in all of this,,,,,,is after only 4 years as a Marine,,,,,,,,I suffered a unique form of "Phantom bite", involving jacks and a tow tractor (and a umm,,,Pvt),,,,,,,,,that tore my abdomen up and led to my discharge,,,,,,,sending Cpl Rex home to find a new career

I did get to go TDY a lot,,,,,,,but, I always seemed to be "home" in Glenview in the winter,and in such great places as Yuma in July

But, don't read me wrong,,,,,,,I loved almost every minute of it (except the first 13 weeks),,,,,,and if I had to do it over,,,,,,,I'd do it the same

this is so far off topic that it's not even funny,,,,but, Memorial day weekend does get me thinking

if you get the chance, build a vet a model, tank, plane or ship,,,,,,you'll enjoy that certain look on their face, believe me

Semper Fi Gunnery Sergeant Vic Herr,,,,and for all of your own "Vic's" out there, no matter which service or country

Rex

edited, the filter did NOT like my nickname for San Diego/Hollywood,,,,,,,,,,,,,,lol

YOWZeR REX...That's the stuff....

Gzink...gzzznk....gznnnckt...Snowplow ......Glenview Beauty.......

Owwwwcchhh.Phantom bite......Tow-motor-solar-pexus......yikes.....Cpl Rex, hope you can still do sit ups...lol...between bad memories and excruciations.....Yuma....ummm..got any ole Colt 'advisors' hangin' round....lol....Glenview....ummmm...who woulda' guessed that was a big turnpike in life.....I remember lifting, er, sliding, a furnace off of a tow motor's fork about 10 feet up onto a storage rack, I was immortal at the time lol....still here to talk about it....

Great stories Rex.....Memorial Day.....not quite up to swaggering into a bar hurling attributables...lol there's my $5 word of the day.....I'm going to Dayton soon, my first real close up of the F-4, when I scratch my nails into it's skin, the staff hate it when I do that....I'll be thinking of tow motors....Vic....stomach discomfort....lol....500lb packages of joy.....Sparrows....Mac's furrowed hair.....lol....guys's like Rex and Vic.....oh man Rex, why did you mention beer.....

  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by jimbot58 on Sunday, May 29, 2011 4:17 AM

I am the young age of 53 so the war in 'Nam was well over for me as well, so I never had the distinction of having to serve. The draft was ended and I just went to work. I salute those of you who did serve, though! And a special salute for those who sacrificed in that war and all others this Memorial Day weekend!

I hope I am zeroing in on finishing the Geasel! I did a few things:

I painted the rear fuselage metal area, though I'm not sure if maybe I used too bright of a metalizer here. I used Stainless Steel but think maybe the Magnesium would have been better as it a bit darker. Unfortunately, my bottle is bone dry. I used Titanium below, but you may not be able to see it very well. Your opinions would be helpful...

You might also note the damage there from where the stabs were originally cemented but broke off.

I also am unmasking the cockpit as well:

The canopy pieces are just sitting in place and will eventually posed open. Note that I have not fully removed the masking from the wind screen yet.

I had to touch up the sills around the cockpit and need to do a bit of painting around the frame edges.

I also need to finish dull-coating the area near the nose. I want to mask it and preserve its 'semi-gloss' appearance before finishing it.

 

*******

On my workbench now:

 

Fujimi F-4K Phantom "Yellow Bird" and Zvezda Su-27SM Flanker


  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Sunday, May 29, 2011 8:58 AM

jimbot58

I am the young age of 53 so the war in 'Nam was well over for me as well, so I never had the distinction of having to serve. The draft was ended and I just went to work. I salute those of you who did serve, though! And a special salute for those who sacrificed in that war and all others this Memorial Day weekend!

I hope I am zeroing in on finishing the Geasel! I did a few things:

I painted the rear fuselage metal area, though I'm not sure if maybe I used too bright of a metalizer here. I used Stainless Steel but think maybe the Magnesium would have been better as it a bit darker. Unfortunately, my bottle is bone dry. I used Titanium below, but you may not be able to see it very well. Your opinions would be helpful...

You might also note the damage there from where the stabs were originally cemented but broke off.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7227/0529110120a.jpg

I also am unmasking the cockpit as well:

The canopy pieces are just sitting in place and will eventually posed open. Note that I have not fully removed the masking from the wind screen yet.

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4949/0529110114.jpg

I had to touch up the sills around the cockpit and need to do a bit of painting around the frame edges.

I also need to finish dull-coating the area near the nose. I want to mask it and preserve its 'semi-gloss' appearance before finishing it.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/6124/0529110120.jpg

 

Very nice Jim!  That Phantom is looking really good!  Yes

Ken

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Sunday, May 29, 2011 12:24 PM

Bockscar

Berny;

Thanks for that, By the way, It being Veteran's Day (Monday) and all, I was just wondering, would you care to share a story about some situation you found yourself in, maybe a Phantom crew you always wondered about, or wished for a better outcome on their behalf?

We don't have a lot of opportunities to hear things from the guys that were there, like in 'Nam, unfiltered through the media, and if your not really inclined I understand.

Most of us go to work, make decisions, and everyone comes home afterward. But guys like you and Rex, your decisions were in fact life and death, but just part of your everyday routine.

Anything ever happen that kept you up at night, a close call, a dumb luck story, maybe isn't classified or political? I've always been a student of how people actually think and act under pressure, then how they live with outcomes in the big picture. 

By the way, thanks for the info on the Sparrow launching mechanism, my dad always said if there was no mechanical connection, don't expect a mechanical outcome.....

Hi Dominic,

I have a story to tell, but it was from my Dad.  I am a little fuzzy on the exact details but I will retell it as best I can remember:

My Dad was a flight engineer on both the C-141A Starlifter and the C-5A Galaxy during the Vietnam War.  On his many, many trips he had many close calls.  On one particular trip, shortly after taking off from Vietnam, the crew on my Dad's aircraft began hearing mayday calls from another C-5A that had just taken off shortly before my Dad's aircraft.  They were over the ocean and had lost power to their engines and were going down.  Then the radio fell silent from the C-5 in distress.

My Dad was very intelligent and had firsthand experience on previous flights of attempted sabotage.  He quickly hypothesized that the C-5 in front of his may have had the fuel sabotaged.  The C-5 has 12 internal wing tanks.  My Dad figured that the C-5 in front of them had switched over to the fuel tanks that had been filled at Vietnam.  Knowing that his C-5 had also just been refueled along with the one that had gone in, he talked the pilot into allowing him to switch one of the engines over to a tank that had just been refueled.  The engine almost immediately began to flame out.

Fortunately my Dad's aircraft still had enough fuel in the tanks that was originally filled at Dover AFB that they could divert and land at a nearby island base.  I do not know what base it was but I remember my Dad telling me that the base was very small and was not really equipped to do maintenance on a C-5A Galaxy.  So my Dad had to empty all of the tanks himself.  He found water in the fuel that they had been loaded with in Vietnam.

My Dad was awarded the Air Medal for his quick thinking that saved his crew and the aircraft from the same fate that happened to the C-5 that took off just before his.  I have searched on the internet for any information about the incident but have never found any.  I think that since there were no witnesses (since the C-5 that crashed went into the ocean) the USAF never released the story.

Here is a picture of my Dad who passed away last year:

 

Ken

  • Member since
    August 2007
  • From: n/w indiana
Posted by some assembly required on Sunday, May 29, 2011 10:06 PM

wow that was some quick thinking on your dads part! i bet every man aboard was glad he was with them that day.  did you happen to find your parafilm yet?

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: State of Mississippi. State motto: Virtute et armis (By valor and arms)
Posted by mississippivol on Sunday, May 29, 2011 10:21 PM

Ken, that Geasel is looking really good!

Mike, I need to make a change on the second entry. I'd like to build a 1/72 Monogram "J" for this and the Monogram mafia build. It's going to be a Marine bird, since there's not one of theirs on the shelf yet.

Thanks

Glenn

  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by jimbot58 on Monday, May 30, 2011 12:53 AM

mississippivol

Ken, that Geasel is looking really good!

 

Ken?Sad

*******

On my workbench now:

 

Fujimi F-4K Phantom "Yellow Bird" and Zvezda Su-27SM Flanker


  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by jimbot58 on Monday, May 30, 2011 3:39 AM

Berny: I hope I won't upset anybody by asking a non-Phantom question, though it is indirectly related to my 'Geasel' build.

I have been doing a bit of research in regards to the Trumpeter F105G 'Wild Weasel' and my Google search actually dug up a post from you from clear back in 2004! I was looking for info about the load out for the "G" and found this:

"The Wild Weasels flew in pairs. One would be loaded with one AGM 45 on the outboard pylon, with an ALQ 87 ECM pod loaded on the other outboard pylon. One AGM 78 loaded on the inboard wing pylon and a drop tank on the other. On the centerline would be the drop tank.

The other aircraft would be loaded with two wing drop tanks, one AGM 45 and one ALQ 87 on the outboard pylons. On the centerline it would have a MER loaded with CBU's or MK 117's.

It would only take one shot to kill a radar site. Other sites would shut down as soon as they learned the weasels were in the area. The first aircraft would fire a AGM 45 to kill the site. The second aircraft would drop its centerline load to destroy the SAM's and launch equipment. They would then go looking for "Fresh Meat" to use the rest of their load on."

I would like to do the aircraft that carried the AGM-78 and wondered as to the order of this asymmetrical load  as to where they would be carried on stations 1-5. (  I know 3 would be the CL tank)

It would be interesting to build a pair of these but it seems I still have work to do on some Phantoms before I even do this one......

*******

On my workbench now:

 

Fujimi F-4K Phantom "Yellow Bird" and Zvezda Su-27SM Flanker


  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by Thunderbolt379 on Monday, May 30, 2011 7:12 AM

Hi all,

I've been looking for a good set of pics that depict the F-4J cockpit, and so far the stuff I've been downloading doesn't much resemble the moulded-on detail in the Hasegawa kit. Does anyone have a definitive look at the panels and consoles of the -J???

Cheers, Mike/TB379

http://worldinminiature.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Monday, May 30, 2011 8:13 AM

mississippivol

Ken, that Geasel is looking really good!

Mike, I need to make a change on the second entry. I'd like to build a 1/72 Monogram "J" for this and the Monogram mafia build. It's going to be a Marine bird, since there's not one of theirs on the shelf yet.

Thanks

Glenn

Hi Glenn,

That Geasel belongs to Jim.  I just hope to make my Phantom look as good as his!

Ken

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Monday, May 30, 2011 8:21 AM

some assembly required

wow that was some quick thinking on your dads part! i bet every man aboard was glad he was with them that day.  did you happen to find your parafilm yet?

Hi S.A.R.

I did find some in bulk on Amazon.com.

Ken

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by Thunderbolt379 on Monday, May 30, 2011 8:55 AM

Glenn -- page 1 updated!

M/Tb379

http://worldinminiature.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: State of Mississippi. State motto: Virtute et armis (By valor and arms)
Posted by mississippivol on Monday, May 30, 2011 9:52 AM

jimbot58

 mississippivol:

Ken, that Geasel is looking really good!

 

 

Ken?Sad

Ahhh, dude, I'm sorry! I was reading off the wrong post.

Glenn

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: The NYC.
Posted by Ish47guy on Monday, May 30, 2011 10:51 AM

Thunderbolt, I looked through my pics to see what photos I took that shows the trunnion cover:

The cover looks to be a thick piece of fiberglass.  It does not taper into the wing surface at all, it sits on top of it.  If you look on the left hand side of this last pic, you can see part of the cover, & the thickness of it, & how it sits on top of the wing:

The cover is pretty noticeable, so I didn't remove them totally, just reduced the height for a more scale appearance.

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Monday, May 30, 2011 12:42 PM

Hi Everyone,

I hope everyone is enjoying Memorial Day.  I took my Mom out to the cemetary to put American flags and flowers on my Dad's grave this morning.  I still miss him so much.

I wanted to add a note about using the contact lens cases for paint.  Don't use enamel in them.  It took a while but the enamel started to eat the plastic.  They are still a good idea for the Acrylic paint though.

Ken

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by Thunderbolt379 on Monday, May 30, 2011 6:42 PM

Thanks Ish -- they sure are subtle, what could have possesed Hasegawa to tool those great blobs of plastic into otherwise beautiful wings?? Must see how thin I can get them...

Cheers, Mike/TB379

http://worldinminiature.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Monday, May 30, 2011 8:45 PM

Hi Everyone,

I hope everyone had a good Memorial Day.  I did not get done with my cockpit as I had hoped.  But I did get a lot done.  Here is my progress:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is still some touch up to do then it is time to start on applying the photo etch along with the film with the gauges on them.

Ken

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 4:34 PM

Son Of Medicine Man

 

 Bockscar:

 

Berny;

Thanks for that, By the way, It being Veteran's Day (Monday) and all, I was just wondering, would you care to share a story about some situation you found yourself in, maybe a Phantom crew you always wondered about, or wished for a better outcome on their behalf?

We don't have a lot of opportunities to hear things from the guys that were there, like in 'Nam, unfiltered through the media, and if your not really inclined I understand.

Most of us go to work, make decisions, and everyone comes home afterward. But guys like you and Rex, your decisions were in fact life and death, but just part of your everyday routine.

Anything ever happen that kept you up at night, a close call, a dumb luck story, maybe isn't classified or political? I've always been a student of how people actually think and act under pressure, then how they live with outcomes in the big picture. 

By the way, thanks for the info on the Sparrow launching mechanism, my dad always said if there was no mechanical connection, don't expect a mechanical outcome.....

 

 

Hi Dominic,

I have a story to tell, but it was from my Dad.  I am a little fuzzy on the exact details but I will retell it as best I can remember:

My Dad was a flight engineer on both the C-141A Starlifter and the C-5A Galaxy during the Vietnam War.  On his many, many trips he had many close calls.  On one particular trip, shortly after taking off from Vietnam, the crew on my Dad's aircraft began hearing mayday calls from another C-5A that had just taken off shortly before my Dad's aircraft.  They were over the ocean and had lost power to their engines and were going down.  Then the radio fell silent from the C-5 in distress.

My Dad was very intelligent and had firsthand experience on previous flights of attempted sabotage.  He quickly hypothesized that the C-5 in front of his may have had the fuel sabotaged.  The C-5 has 12 internal wing tanks.  My Dad figured that the C-5 in front of them had switched over to the fuel tanks that had been filled at Vietnam.  Knowing that his C-5 had also just been refueled along with the one that had gone in, he talked the pilot into allowing him to switch one of the engines over to a tank that had just been refueled.  The engine almost immediately began to flame out.

Fortunately my Dad's aircraft still had enough fuel in the tanks that was originally filled at Dover AFB that they could divert and land at a nearby island base.  I do not know what base it was but I remember my Dad telling me that the base was very small and was not really equipped to do maintenance on a C-5A Galaxy.  So my Dad had to empty all of the tanks himself.  He found water in the fuel that they had been loaded with in Vietnam.

My Dad was awarded the Air Medal for his quick thinking that saved his crew and the aircraft from the same fate that happened to the C-5 that took off just before his.  I have searched on the internet for any information about the incident but have never found any.  I think that since there were no witnesses (since the C-5 that crashed went into the ocean) the USAF never released the story.

Here is a picture of my Dad who passed away last year:

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n625/Fooser_Ken/img569-Copy.jpg

 

Ken

Hey Ken;

A Salute to your Father.

Sorry to hear he passed away last year, mine passed in May last year as well. He wasn't a military man, but one of his first engineering grad jobs was working on the Avro Arrow, intern.

Your dad had some great instincts, that is quick thinking for sure. Have to wonder how some people get that 'hey wait a second' lightbulb to go on like that, put the pieces of a puzzle together, then test the theory just in time.

My wife's dad died a few days before mine, he was in communications and served in Holland, he kind of lost it at the end. Sorry they are gone, miss them alright. Thanks for the story.

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 4:40 PM

Is that a MIG?!!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v26/ishthe47guy/F-4%20et%20all/IMG_7525.jpg

Only kidding, I'll have to check the fence out.

By the way, the model actually has a much bigger trunnion than the real F-4, so that's why the big blob of plastic! Who knows, maybe the tool-maker thought it would look like a nice landau wheel cover.

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 4:55 PM

Thanks Dominic.  I am sorry for your loss as well.

I just didn't realize the questions that I should have asked him before he died.  He was never a person to brag on himself about anything.  In fact when he told me the story about the fuel sabotage, he was mostly focusing on the crew that went into the ocean.  He knew all of them personally, and it really upset him.  After going through some of his old photographs I had questions about them as well.  My Mom is losing her memory, and she doesn't remember much about my Dad's earlier years.  I was really surprised going through his old Air Force records to find all of his evaluations were nothing but very high praise and told about some of his achievements.  He was even the crew chief for a base commander's plane!  Very impressive!

Ken

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 6:22 PM

Hey Ken:

After hearing Rex's story about the tow-motor injury, and your father's just-in-time, the sobering fact is that service is a dangerous occupation, we celebrate the survivors and honour our dead. I heard a well known, and well liked on my side, announcer kind of mocking Canada as not having produced great fighters, as in soldiers. He is forgiven for not knowing, fact is our sacrifices don't get much play, and I don't say that in complaint by any means.

US military people know what we do, and have done, but the public doesn't really.

I promise not to get all Poly-Sci here, but my wife's step dad was a Wing-Commander, and participated in atom-bomb test(s). He knew what the world was up against at the time, and served. He too suffered a career related injury, not as bad as Rex's, but he had to leave as well. What is interesting is that for years folks up here kind of sneered at the military, and those whom have served. Not any more, I assure you. Maybe we earned a bad rep among our own public over the 'peace' stuff and gaffs, but we've come a long way in supporting missions in dangerous circumstances. 

I won't go on too much because it is a slippery slope, but I feel a lot better now when I meet folks who actually feel proud because we have regained a fighting spirit. 

That Mosquito pilot that sold me his modest collection about 7 years back, he did not want to talk about the things he did either, he said 'Dominic, we buried the real stories.' That kind of says it all, it helped me understand why Vets keep so much of the important stuff to themselves. What happened there stayed there.

I remember seeing the pilot of a Black Cat squad (Attack Catalinas) from WWII being interviewed. He said that for years, he would tell people about what they did, and folks thought he was making it up!

Yeah Ken, it would have been great to find out more from your dad.

Best to your Mom, I appreciate what you are going through.

 

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 7:39 PM

Hi Berny,

I was just wondering about how you are feeling and how you were doing?

Ken

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 4:44 PM

Bockscar

 

 

 

 

 

Berny;

Thanks for that, By the way, It being Veteran's Day (Monday) and all, I was just wondering, would you care to share a story about some situation you found yourself in, maybe a Phantom crew you always wondered about, or wished for a better outcome on their behalf?

We don't have a lot of opportunities to hear things from the guys that were there, like in 'Nam, unfiltered through the media, and if your not really inclined I understand.

Most of us go to work, make decisions, and everyone comes home afterward. But guys like you and Rex, your decisions were in fact life and death, but just part of your everyday routine.

Anything ever happen that kept you up at night, a close call, a dumb luck story, maybe isn't classified or political? I've always been a student of how people actually think and act under pressure, then how they live with outcomes in the big picture. 

By the way, thanks for the info on the Sparrow launching mechanism, my dad always said if there was no mechanical connection, don't expect a mechanical outcome.....

I had just completed my second tour in SEA, one in Nam and one in Thailand when I was sent state side to Hill AFB, UT with the F-4 Rapid Area Maintenance Team (RAM Team).  I was sent to Clark AB, Philippines for a six month TDY.  When not on a RAM assignment we would be doing the rocket seat mod or cannon plug mod on the F-4 at Clark.  There was six teams at Clark, two in Nam and two in Thailand, each team for a six month TDY.  After serving our six months at Clark we would go back to Hill AFB for 24 hours and and get sent to Thailand for six months, back to Hill AFB for 24 hours and then to Nam for six months.  Then we would go back to Hill AFB for three months and start all over again.

The procedure was when you completed a RAM assignment you would go to the bottom of the list.  When you were number two on the list the team went on 12 hour recall.  Number one and you were on 30 minute call.  Me and my team was on 12 hour call when the Capt came up to me.  I was working in a cockpit doing the rocket seat mod.  He told me to assemble my team and report to him in 15 minutes for a briefing.

I got my team together and sent them over to base ops and went to see the Capt.  He told me a F-4C Wild Weasel had gone down in country X due to fuel transfer problems.  The crew had ejected but the jet landed in an open field, fully intact.  My job was to take two teams into country X and get all traces of the aircraft out.  Just a week before President Nixon stood up and told the world we were not over flying, conduction any type of missions or had any combat troops in country X.  I was to go in as team leader and evaluate and request any assistance I needed to remove the aircraft.

We always had a C-130 on 30 minute ramp alert to take the teams anywhere needed.  We flew to a base in Thailand where we changed into civilian clothes, got on a helicopter and flew to the crash sight.  I was met by an army 1st Lt that told me we had 72 hours to take the jet apart and get it out.  I told him even under ideal conditions with the jet in a hanger, prepped, with engines removed, fuselage fuel cells removed, on a crib and jig it would take half that time just to remove the wings.  He told me he had three rings of troops around the site, each half a mile apart and the first ring was already under fire.  I told he to be back in 72 hours to pick us up.

The proper procedure is to remove the wings first.  The engines have to be removed to gain access to the wing mount bolts. The fuselage is in three major sections, forward, center and aft. There is a strap secured with flush mounted high sheer rivets covering the fuselage mount bolts.  Each rivet has to be carefully drilled out.  Each bolt is numbered starting with the top bolt being N.1 and looking forward the second bolt looking clockwise is bolt N. 2.  The bolts have to be loosened in a certain order.  First the torque has to be broken and the bolt turned 1/4 turn followed by each bolt in sequence.  Then starting over each bolt backed off one complete turn in a certain order.  You keep this up until each bolt can be removed by finger.  The jig is then cranked forward, jig ring installed securing the removed fuselage section to ring and jig.  Then the jig braces installed and whole assembly placed in the cradle.  Once the cradle is around it you can remove that section, along with the jig and cradle from the crib.   

We didn't have any jigs, cribs or cradles with us so we removed the straps with air chisels to save time.  Then we used a cutting torch to cut the mount bolt heads off.  We manhandled the removed sections out of the way and secured cargo straps and cable to them and had them flown out by chopper.  Using lifting bags we raised the center section enough to get under to remove the lower secondary wing mount bolts.  We cut a hole into the wing torque box to get to the six main wing mount bolts and removed them.  We then flew out the wings by chopper. 

I knew the center section was going to be a problem because it still had the engines and fuel cells installed.  There was only one type of chopper that could remove that much weight and both of them were down for maintenance.  We opened up the fuel drains to drain out as much fuel as possible.  The number 1 and 2 fuel cells were empty but the number 3 and 4 cells were full with number 5 and 6 half full.  As luck would have it a heavy lift chopper came in to remove the center section and was able to got it out. 

It took us 79 hours working around the clock to get the jet taken apart and flown out.  All we had to do now was clean up the crash site and get out of there.  One chopper came in to pick up part of the crew.  They told us the second chopper developed maintenance problems and had to return back to base.  Another was on  the way and would be there in 10 to 15 minutes.  I put all of the crew except for me and three other members on the chopper to fly out.  The four of us checked over the site and I set fire to the pit we had dug to get under the wing.  It was full of JP-4 jet fuel.  After 10 minutes we could hear a chopper coming in and by then we were getting small arm fire coming in on us.  The chopper flew over us and fired a salvo of rockets into the jungle edge.  It flew around and fired a second salvo.  I thought it was our air support and the transport chopper was on the way to pick us up.  When it set down about a hundred yards from us and the gunner motioned us to get on board, we started running toward the chopper.  It was much smaller than the other ones we had seen.  About half way to the chopper, the man to my left went down.  I ran over to him and threw him over my shoulder and started running toward the chopper.  Because of the blood he was loosing, I was about to loose my grip on him.  I stopped, went down on one knee and adjusted the load.  When I stood up, that is all I remember. 

The other members of my crew said an explosion went off, maybe from a mortar round directly in front of me.  It picked me up and threw me backwards about ten feet.  They left the chopper and went after me and the other man.  The other side gunner got out and helped them.  The right gunner told them we were dead and to leave us there.  He kept saying they needed to get out of there and to leave us.

When I woke up in the hospital in Thailand I had a cast on my left foot and left arm.  A piece of steel hit my left leg just above the foot and cracked the bone.  Another hit my left lower arm about half way up and broke the bone.  Another entered my left leg above the knee and went about half way through.  One entered the right leg above the knee and went all the way through.  One large piece was imbedded in my flack jacket right in front of my heart.  All we knew about the other person was he was sent back to a hospital somewhere in the states.

Fast forward to June, 1983.  I was stationed at Spangdahlm AB Germany and was deployed to Nellis AFB, NV for a Red Flag exercise.  After pounding the hot flight line for twelve hours, I went to the NCO club for a cold one before heading back to my motel off base.  I was almost through with my beer when the bartender set another one down in front of me and said it was from the man setting at that table.  I finished my first one, grabbed the second one and went over to the table to thank him.  He asked if I rememberd him and I had to tell him that I didn't.  When He told me that he was the man I went back after he was hit, I couldn't believe it.  He had put on forty pounds, the thick blond hair he had was now gray around the sides and bald on top, and wore thick glasses.  I found out the large piece of steel imbedded in my flack jacket had gone through his right leg, which slowed it down preventing it from going through my flack jacket and into my heart.  The leg was torn up so bad they couldn't save it.  A bullet had entered through the arm opening on his flack jacket and went into his left lung, just missing his heart.  That was the injury that initially took him down.  He was living in the Vegas area, met and married a local girl and had three children.  Before we parted company, we exchanged addresses and phone numbers and agreed to stay in touch.  For some reason we didn't and that was the only time I saw him.   

  

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 5:12 PM

berny13

 

 Bockscar:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Berny;

Thanks for that, By the way, It being Veteran's Day (Monday) and all, I was just wondering, would you care to share a story about some situation you found yourself in, maybe a Phantom crew you always wondered about, or wished for a better outcome on their behalf?

We don't have a lot of opportunities to hear things from the guys that were there, like in 'Nam, unfiltered through the media, and if your not really inclined I understand.

Most of us go to work, make decisions, and everyone comes home afterward. But guys like you and Rex, your decisions were in fact life and death, but just part of your everyday routine.

Anything ever happen that kept you up at night, a close call, a dumb luck story, maybe isn't classified or political? I've always been a student of how people actually think and act under pressure, then how they live with outcomes in the big picture. 

By the way, thanks for the info on the Sparrow launching mechanism, my dad always said if there was no mechanical connection, don't expect a mechanical outcome.....

 

 

I had just completed my second tour in SEA, one in Nam and one in Thailand when I was sent state side to Hill AFB, UT with the F-4 Rapid Area Maintenance Team (RAM Team).  I was sent to Clark AB, Philippines for a six month TDY.  When not on a RAM assignment we would be doing the rocket seat mod or cannon plug mod on the F-4 at Clark.  There was six teams at Clark, two in Nam and two in Thailand, each team for a six month TDY.  After serving our six months at Clark we would go back to Hill AFB for 24 hours and and get sent to Thailand for six months, back to Hill AFB for 24 hours and then to Nam for six months.  Then we would go back to Hill AFB for three months and start all over again.

The procedure was when you completed a RAM assignment you would go to the bottom of the list.  When you were number two on the list the team went on 12 hour recall.  Number one and you were on 30 minute call.  Me and my team was on 12 hour call when the Capt came up to me.  I was working in a cockpit doing the rocket seat mod.  He told me to assemble my team and report to him in 15 minutes for a briefing.

I got my team together and sent them over to base ops and went to see the Capt.  He told me a F-4C Wild Weasel had gone down in country X due to fuel transfer problems.  The crew had ejected but the jet landed in an open field, fully intact.  My job was to take two teams into country X and get all traces of the aircraft out.  Just a week before President Nixon stood up and told the world we were not over flying, conduction any type of missions or had any combat troops in country X.  I was to go in as team leader and evaluate and request any assistance I needed to remove the aircraft.

We always had a C-130 on 30 minute ramp alert to take the teams anywhere needed.  We flew to a base in Thailand where we changed into civilian clothes, got on a helicopter and flew to the crash sight.  I was met by an army 1st Lt that told me we had 72 hours to take the jet apart and get it out.  I told him even under ideal conditions with the jet in a hanger, prepped, with engines removed, fuselage fuel cells removed, on a crib and jig it would take half that time just to remove the wings.  He told me he had three rings of troops around the site, each half a mile apart and the first ring was already under fire.  I told he to be back in 72 hours to pick us up.

The proper procedure is to remove the wings first.  The engines have to be removed to gain access to the wing mount bolts. The fuselage is in three major sections, forward, center and aft. There is a strap secured with flush mounted high sheer rivets covering the fuselage mount bolts.  Each rivet has to be carefully drilled out.  Each bolt is numbered starting with the top bolt being N.1 and looking forward the second bolt looking clockwise is bolt N. 2.  The bolts have to be loosened in a certain order.  First the torque has to be broken and the bolt turned 1/4 turn followed by each bolt in sequence.  Then starting over each bolt backed off one complete turn in a certain order.  You keep this up until each bolt can be removed by finger.  The jig is then cranked forward, jig ring installed securing the removed fuselage section to ring and jig.  Then the jig braces installed and whole assembly placed in the cradle.  Once the cradle is around it you can remove that section, along with the jig and cradle from the crib.   

We didn't have any jigs, cribs or cradles with us so we removed the straps with air chisels to save time.  Then we used a cutting torch to cut the mount bolt heads off.  We manhandled the removed sections out of the way and secured cargo straps and cable to them and had them flown out by chopper.  Using lifting bags we raised the center section enough to get under to remove the lower secondary wing mount bolts.  We cut a hole into the wing torque box to get to the six main wing mount bolts and removed them.  We then flew out the wings by chopper. 

I knew the center section was going to be a problem because it still had the engines and fuel cells installed.  There was only one type of chopper that could remove that much weight and both of them were down for maintenance.  We opened up the fuel drains to drain out as much fuel as possible.  The number 1 and 2 fuel cells were empty but the number 3 and 4 cells were full with number 5 and 6 half full.  As luck would have it a heavy lift chopper came in to remove the center section and was able to got it out. 

It took us 79 hours working around the clock to get the jet taken apart and flown out.  All we had to do now was clean up the crash site and get out of there.  One chopper came in to pick up part of the crew.  They told us the second chopper developed maintenance problems and had to return back to base.  Another was on  the way and would be there in 10 to 15 minutes.  I put all of the crew except for me and three other members on the chopper to fly out.  The four of us checked over the site and I set fire to the pit we had dug to get under the wing.  It was full of JP-4 jet fuel.  After 10 minutes we could hear a chopper coming in and by then we were getting small arm fire coming in on us.  The chopper flew over us and fired a salvo of rockets into the jungle edge.  It flew around and fired a second salvo.  I thought it was our air support and the transport chopper was on the way to pick us up.  When it set down about a hundred yards from us and the gunner motioned us to get on board, we started running toward the chopper.  It was much smaller than the other ones we had seen.  About half way to the chopper, the man to my left went down.  I ran over to him and threw him over my shoulder and started running toward the chopper.  Because of the blood he was loosing, I was about to loose my grip on him.  I stopped, went down on one knee and adjusted the load.  When I stood up, that is all I remember. 

The other members of my crew said an explosion went off, maybe from a mortar round directly in front of me.  It picked me up and threw me backwards about ten feet.  They left the chopper and went after me and the other man.  The other side gunner got out and helped them.  The right gunner told them we were dead and to leave us there.  He kept saying they needed to get out of there and to leave us.

When I woke up in the hospital in Thailand I had a cast on my left foot and left arm.  A piece of steel hit my left leg just above the foot and cracked the bone.  Another hit my left lower arm about half way up and broke the bone.  Another entered my left leg above the knee and went about half way through.  One entered the right leg above the knee and went all the way through.  One large piece was imbedded in my flack jacket right in front of my heart.  All we knew about the other person was he was sent back to a hospital somewhere in the states.

Fast forward to June, 1983.  I was stationed at Spangdahlm AB Germany and was deployed to Nellis AFB, NV for a Red Flag exercise.  After pounding the hot flight line for twelve hours, I went to the NCO club for a cold one before heading back to my motel off base.  I was almost through with my beer when the bartender set another one down in front of me and said it was from the man setting at that table.  I finished my first one, grabbed the second one and went over to the table to thank him.  He asked if I rememberd him and I had to tell him that I didn't.  When He told me that he was the man I went back after he was hit, I couldn't believe it.  He had put on forty pounds, the thick blond hair he had was now gray around the sides and bald on top, and wore thick glasses.  I found out the large piece of steel imbedded in my flack jacket had gone through his right leg, which slowed it down preventing it from going through my flack jacket and into my heart.  The leg was torn up so bad they couldn't save it.  A bullet had entered through the arm opening on his flack jacket and went into his left lung, just missing his heart.  That was the injury that initially took him down.  He was living in the Vegas area, met and married a local girl and had three children.  Before we parted company, we exchanged addresses and phone numbers and agreed to stay in touch.  For some reason we didn't and that was the only time I saw him.   

 

!!!!!WOW!!!!!

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 5:15 PM

Sorry Berny, I'm speechless.

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 5:28 PM

Okay, I recovered.....Berny,

THANK YOU for doing that, THANK YOU for saving that guy, THANK YOU for your story.

I am going to have a cold one in your honour and dry my eyes on the cold beer glass. 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 6:37 PM

Bockscar

Okay, I recovered.....Berny,

THANK YOU for doing that, THANK YOU for saving that guy, THANK YOU for your story.

I am going to have a cold one in your honour and dry my eyes on the cold beer glass. 

Thanks Bocks.  The bad thing is that F-4C never flew again.  After returning back to Hill AFB, I saw that jet laying along side a hanger.  A civilian came up as I was looking at it and commented that the crew that took that aircraft apart should be shot.  The fuselage was so warped by not being in a jig and cradle there would be no way to ever get the parts to fit again.  You can't use putty and sandpaper to get them to fit and fill the gaps.  Big Smile

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 6:52 PM

berny13

 

 Bockscar:

 

Okay, I recovered.....Berny,

THANK YOU for doing that, THANK YOU for saving that guy, THANK YOU for your story.

I am going to have a cold one in your honour and dry my eyes on the cold beer glass. 

 

 

Thanks Bocks.  The bad thing is that F-4C never flew again.  After returning back to Hill AFB, I saw that jet laying along side a hanger.  A civilian came up as I was looking at it and commented that the crew that took that aircraft apart should be shot.  The fuselage was so warped by not being in a jig and cradle there would be no way to ever get the parts to fit again.  You can't use putty and sandpaper to get them to fit and fill the gaps.  Big Smile

Berny;

All business...lol...ummm.....for that, I'ld need a bit of time, a bit o' cash, tin snips, rivets and tools, handy with those, mind you, only for display purposes!...is that jig & cradle on Ebay now?.....lol....

It woulda' been pure justice to have it fly again though....just to make you laugh....i used to de-warp destroyed bicycle frames and wheels when I was a kid.....yeah....they paid me good money to un-destroy stuff....lol....never put a grenade back together though, or a slightly used Sparrow.....lol....

Some angel was looking after you man.....you must of been worth the price of admission.....

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