The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

Revell Blue Angels kit,,,,,,at one time that molding was considered so good that it was being used to kit bash "better" versions of other company's kits

just make sure not to use that underscale IR sensor nose bump,,,,for your J's or for any model later on, lol,,,,,the wing bulge for the landing gear is a compromise,,,,it's about halfway between the B flat, and the J bulged,,,,it works when painted up as a J bulge, though,,,,,,,,,,I cut down that heavy lip on the bottom of the wing piece and push down with my thumb glue it,,,,,and make B's from that molding

don't panic when you see the B sized engine cans, either,,,,,,,they are correct for the early period Blue Angels J's,,,,if you do replace them to get more detail, get B cans as your replacements

if you break a part, just let me know,,,,,,,,I have 7 "blue ones" left of my 3 4-packs, and 4 white ones from the one T-bird boxing I bought,,,,,,and some spares from "gray moldings" that have suffered shelf damage over the years,,,,,,,,,,,,,,a K-Mart had the 2 different 4 packs on sale for $8 one time in the '80s,,,,,,so I bought 4 boxes

happy birthday to the Phantom, the workhorse of so many air forces around the world

Rex

TarnShip

Mike

Showtime 100 was not the aircraft assigned to either Cunningham or Driscoll at the time of the flight,,,,,,,the pilot's name was CDR Gus Eggert, with ENG IM Fearless on the backseater's canopy rail,  in all caps in both places,,,,I'm squinting at the names on a 13" long two page pic in the front of Osprey #30 1972-73 Mig killers book,,,,,,,,,,,,,pilot's flew whatever aircraft they were assigned for any given mission, and Randy wasn't the CAG, I'm just saying that to explain why the names didn't match up (sort of the back story)

let's see,,,,,,2 Sparrows loaded aft, fore empty, 4 Rattlers,,one centerline tank,,,,,,2 TER on the outerwing, with 2 Rockeyes on each,,,,,,in the Slant 2 configuration,,,,,,,,O O X and X O O,,,,,,,easy way to visulaize is "empty on the inside",,,,,,,,I'd dig a little more on the Rockeye loading, just to be sure, if I were you,,,,,,but, for "logic" I'd look at the weight limit for a TER, and the weight of a Rockeye (768 pounds?,,,,,just sprang to mind, you might want to check on that )

I'm not much help with the Trunnion covers in 1/48, they are separate pieces in my Hasegawa 1/72 kits,,,,,,,,,,but, it sure would be tempting to "get one perfect", and pull a latex mold afterward,,,,,,,and be able to make as many as I needed the rest of my 1/48 Phantom career,,,,,,,,as large as those sometimes get molded, making one from sheet stock and filing it all perfectly, etc, would be effort saved in the next few years

 

Just a correction on the load out.  Six MK-20 Rockeyes were loaded.  The AIM-9's carried were  AIM-9G's.  The TER's were loaded on the inboard pylon and no pylons or tanks were carried on the outboard station.

Ken, some of the tail numbers I remember from Kadena were:  66-7721, 66-7690, 66-8823 (Last F-4D built).  These were all Smart D's and would be loaded with missile well adapters on both forward missile wells.  The AN/ALQ-119 ECM pod would go on the right forward and a Pave Spike Pod on the left forward.  All were assigned to the 25th TFS and would have green tails.  There was another jet assigned to another section that had tail number BR-549.  There actually was a small BR in black letters the same size as the AF, just forward of 549.

just to clarify

Showtime 100 was the aircraft assigned and used during the flight

it was not the aircraft assigned to Cunningham in the squadron, however

it would have been a rare thing for the pilots to match up with the names on the rails back then, pilots flew whichever aircraft was ready and available for the next mission, and the CAG jet from each squadron in the Air Wing was not "wasted" by having it sit in all five Squadrons until the CAG could fly it

my other post made it seem that NG-100 was somehow the wrong aircraft, lol

Rex

TarnShip

just to clarify

Showtime 100 was the aircraft assigned and used during the flight

it was not the aircraft assigned to Cunningham in the squadron, however

it would have been a rare thing for the pilots to match up with the names on the rails back then, pilots flew whichever aircraft was ready and available for the next mission, and the CAG jet from each squadron in the Air Wing was not "wasted" by having it sit in all five Squadrons until the CAG could fly it

my other post made it seem that NG-100 was somehow the wrong aircraft, lol

Rex

If I am not mistaken, Cunningham was assigned to aircraft NG-107, and whenever it flew was refered to as Showtime 107.  Cunningham never flew Showtime 107 on any of his MIG killing missions.  Another squadron pilot did score a kill in that aircraft.

TarnShip

happy birthday to the Phantom, the workhorse of so many air forces around the world

Rex

berny13

 

TarnShip:

 

just to clarify

Showtime 100 was the aircraft assigned and used during the flight

it was not the aircraft assigned to Cunningham in the squadron, however

it would have been a rare thing for the pilots to match up with the names on the rails back then, pilots flew whichever aircraft was ready and available for the next mission, and the CAG jet from each squadron in the Air Wing was not "wasted" by having it sit in all five Squadrons until the CAG could fly it

my other post made it seem that NG-100 was somehow the wrong aircraft, lol

Rex

 

 

If I am not mistaken, Cunningham was assigned to aircraft NG-107, and whenever it flew was refered to as Showtime 107.  Cunningham never flew Showtime 107 on any of his MIG killing missions.  Another squadron pilot did score a kill in that aircraft.

I saw an interview with Duke Cunningham, the day him and Driscoll made Ace. He said that after the SAM blast his plane rolled uncontrollably, ie they could not stop it from rolling, all the way out to the coast. That's what I thought I heard, did I get that right?

Ken:

I just saw footage from Joplin, complete devastation, and as the camera crew goes by a huge pile of destruction and rubble, they focus in on a sign that someone has put up in front of what was once their home, and it reads:

"YARD SALE

EVERYTHING MUST GO!"

That's the spirit, all right!

Bockscar

Ken:

I just saw footage from Joplin, complete devastation, and as the camera crew goes by a huge pile of destruction and rubble, they focus in on a sign that someone has put up in front of what was once their home, and it reads:

"YARD SALE

EVERYTHING MUST GO!"

That's the spirit, all right!

 

Hi Dominic,

I am sure who ever put up that sign must have realized that the important things in life does not include property.  That would have to be the atitude to have to survive mentally.  Of course then on the news tonight was another story of sadness where a mother went to pick up dinner just before the storm hit and never returned.  And the family still has not had the chance to identify her and know for sure that she is dead.  Very sad.

Ken

Son Of Medicine Man

 

Bockscar:

 

Ken:

I just saw footage from Joplin, complete devastation, and as the camera crew goes by a huge pile of destruction and rubble, they focus in on a sign that someone has put up in front of what was once their home, and it reads:

"YARD SALE

EVERYTHING MUST GO!"

That's the spirit, all right!

 

 

 

Hi Dominic,

I am sure who ever put up that sign must have realized that the important things in life does not include property.  That would have to be the atitude to have to survive mentally.  Of course then on the news tonight was another story of sadness where a mother went to pick up dinner just before the storm hit and never returned.  And the family still has not had the chance to identify her and know for sure that she is dead.  Very sad.

Ken

Yeah Ken, and that little kid pulled out of his mom's arms. The pain is tangible. That took me down a few notches reading that story. Reminds me of Jarold Texas, the F-5 that killed families in their shelters.

The people of Joplin really have a spirit, they've really pulled together to share the pain and the burden. You brought up a point, it's important not to just survive, but survive mentally and continue.

I will say prayers for those families.

Rex, Berny and Bocks -- thanks for the info, guys. She's starting to shape up mentally at this time. I can get -9Gs and Rockeyes from the Hasegawa accessory packs, and the other names in the kit are Fearless, Eggert and Smith, so I'm defnitely in the ballpark.

One question, when flying with the forward Sparrow wells empty for CG reasons, would the wells be blanked with streamlining plates, or did it simply not matter?

I think you're right, Rex, patterning and casting the trunion covers are the way to go. I've wanted this model to be picture-perfect since I first bought one back in the 90s, so it just has to be. How to remove the moulded-on detail is the question, I'm thinking a single-edge razor blade with some kind of backing would get me close, with filing and sanding to finish off. The important detail is recessed so it's safe, I just need to be way careful not to catch the gear bulges or outer wing panels with the blade.

Now I find myself thinking about an AM flap set and maybe some new burner cans...

Yes indeed, Happy Birthday to the Phantom, 53 years young and still around in a few places!

Cheers all, Mike/TB379

Thunderbolt379

Rex, Berny and Bocks -- thanks for the info, guys. She's starting to shape up mentally at this time. I can get -9Gs and Rockeyes from the Hasegawa accessory packs, and the other names in the kit are Fearless, Eggert and Smith, so I'm defnitely in the ballpark.

One question, when flying with the forward Sparrow wells empty for CG reasons, would the wells be blanked with streamlining plates, or did it simply not matter?

I think you're right, Rex, patterning and casting the trunion covers are the way to go. I've wanted this model to be picture-perfect since I first bought one back in the 90s, so it just has to be. How to remove the moulded-on detail is the question, I'm thinking a single-edge razor blade with some kind of backing would get me close, with filing and sanding to finish off. The important detail is recessed so it's safe, I just need to be way careful not to catch the gear bulges or outer wing panels with the blade.

Now I find myself thinking about an AM flap set and maybe some new burner cans...

Yes indeed, Happy Birthday to the Phantom, 53 years young and still around in a few places!

Cheers all, Mike/TB379

Mike:

My general lack of knowledge of the F-4 notwithstanding, if i can see it I can suggest something, if you've got a picture of the task at hand.

I was mentioning to Rich, I was a mold-maker/sculptor in a former life.  I don't know if this applies to your situation, but sometimes I would use lots of tape to cement a piece down to my table, then 'balance' the cut with a fulcrum, also taped down, so i couldn't accidentally over cut. It was a lot of extra work, but not so much when you really can't afford to wreck something.

I got the final shape cut for the duct backing, that was 5 evolutions to get it right. Also got the duct tube end cut at the right angle on the paper pattern.

If I'm not careful here, I may end up making progress!

Mike

this is going to be wordy, because I suck at making drawings for tools,,,,,but, I can make them from the "picture" I have in my head,,,,,so, here goes

If you have any wood working tools take a look at the block plane,,,,,,make something up that holds that flat chisel blade that comes in the "5 blades in one pack" X-Acto blade packs,,,,you know the pack, you buy it even though you are only going to use 2 or 3 of the blades,,,,,there's usually a straight chisel type blade in there

set it up so you only cut a few thousandths at a time,,,,,and shave it down a little bit as you go

I have this picture in my head of  X-Acto's Aluminum Miter box with a slot for a blade sticking out the bottom, with a crosspiece to screw the blade onto in the blade's little mounting hole,,,,then move the blade shallower and shallower until it is nearly flush with the bottom surface,,,,or start off with 1 thou sticking out and stop before you "scratch the surrounding wing surface"

I hope this is of some help to you

Rex

adding another thought,,,,,,,I use the "rock the chisel" method for removing those Air Force tail wedge plates for my Naval planes,,,,,,,I just lay my big red handled X-Acto with the chisel blade chucked in it,,,,,,,right up against the wedge lip, and rock the chisel back and forth, it shaves off a bit each pass,,,,,,,you could try that working from the top of the hump, down towards the wing surface,,,,,moving around the hump as you carve down,,,,sort of like "un-frosting a cake"

Hi Rex -- some good approaches there, I don't have the muilti-blade set and I could foresee all sorts of ploughed furrows happening with a planing approach, so I went with the second. I laid a carton-ripper blade against the edge of the hump on the left wing and more or less whittled it away. It took aboutg ten minutes and damage to the surrounding plastic was minimal enough for a wet sand with 1200-grit to get things looking okay again. One or two scratches now have a lick of filler in them. I'll use the same approach to remove the strip lights.

I'll use some heavy stripstock as the basis for the new humps, shape them as much as possible and then trim them from the bar, with luck this won't take long...

Cheers, M/TB379

Quick question from an F4 Non-Expert..  Just where are these light strips I keep hearing about?

Rich

Thunderbolt379

Hi Rex -- some good approaches there, I don't have the muilti-blade set and I could foresee all sorts of ploughed furrows happening with a planing approach, so I went with the second. I laid a carton-ripper blade against the edge of the hump on the left wing and more or less whittled it away. It took aboutg ten minutes and damage to the surrounding plastic was minimal enough for a wet sand with 1200-grit to get things looking okay again. One or two scratches now have a lick of filler in them. I'll use the same approach to remove the strip lights.

I'll use some heavy stripstock as the basis for the new humps, shape them as much as possible and then trim them from the bar, with luck this won't take long...

Cheers, M/TB379

those yellow/green "slime lights" as on the nose and tail of this bird

http://www.5053phantoms.com/photos/displayimage.php?pos=-5630

on some kits, they are molded in (or on top of) the parts

Rex

Rich -- they are located on the lower forward fuselage, on the upper mid fuselage, and, inclined, on the vertical tail. They are electroluminescent gadgets that were scabbed -on in the 1970s (IIRC), and were used for formation flying at night, expressly a peacetime/noncombat region measure. Phantoms in the post-Vietnam era would display them, and they were not carried in combat.

A quick check of photo refs later, the earliest pick I found to hand was a 1972 shot of a bird out of Takhli, Thailand, carrying the strips, but the aircraft may have only just arrived in-theatre and the strips may have been soon removed. The next earliest is a 1974 shot, Stateside.

A later nickname for them I believe was "slime lights" due to their yellowish glow... But I stand ready to be corrected!

Cheers, Mike/T379

Well, it doesn't look like I'll get to the Phantom this year.  I've decided to do up all my WWII props before I dive into jets, and the props pile keeps getting bigger.  I did pick up a Legends cockpit for the F-4J though and will probably do that up this summer

Sorry to hear that, redraider -- not to worry, there'll be more Rhino builds in future, I'm sure!

I went ahead and doctored the trunion covers on the -J. Here's the work at mid-point:

The wing looks a lot cleaner with that great slab gone. The right wing is now done, filled and sanded too.

I've been looking for a pic of the accurate cover, my impression is a smooth aerodynamic taper from fore to after, with a chamfer/incline at right and left. Does anyone have a good pic? Bob Dorr's Phantoms Forever doesn't have a very close angle, unfortunately, but there are more sources to check. I remember we had a builder here not long ago accurize this aspect, but with over 120 pages of posts now it's a bear finding anything in particular. (If I had my wits about me I'd have created an index post, updating it as we go... What a good idea, perhaps directly following the leader post, so we can always find specific things... Well, not this time, real life is a bit too insistent!)

Cheers, Mike/TB379

Thunderbolt379

One question, when flying with the forward Sparrow wells empty for CG reasons, would the wells be blanked with streamlining plates, or did it simply not matter?

Cheers all, Mike/TB379

With no missiles loaded, there was a missile well flipper door located at the rear of the missile bay that would extend.  It was hinged and would cover the rear part of the well.  A micro switch located in the well would be compressed with a missile loaded.  When the forward kicker foot would eject the missile down, the switch would activate pushing down on the rear part of the flipper door helping drive the forward missile straight down.  A six foot coiled lanyard would keep the rocket motor from igniting until it was well clear of the aircraft. 

Bockscar

 

 

I saw an interview with Duke Cunningham, the day him and Driscoll made Ace. He said that after the SAM blast his plane rolled uncontrollably, ie they could not stop it from rolling, all the way out to the coast. That's what I thought I heard, did I get that right? 

He had a big problem keeping the aircraft under control.  He had to use full rudder and aileron control in order to keep the aircraft from rolling.  Several times on the trip to the coast the jet tried to get away from him but he was always able to maintain some type of control until they ejected over water.

berny13

 

Thunderbolt379:

 

One question, when flying with the forward Sparrow wells empty for CG reasons, would the wells be blanked with streamlining plates, or did it simply not matter?

Cheers all, Mike/TB379

 

 

With no missiles loaded, there was a missile well flipper door located at the rear of the missile bay that would extend.  It was hinged and would cover the rear part of the well.  A micro switch located in the well would be compressed with a missile loaded.  When the forward kicker foot would eject the missile down, the switch would activate pushing down on the rear part of the flipper door helping drive the forward missile straight down.  A six foot coiled lanyard would keep the rocket motor from igniting until it was well clear of the aircraft. 

 

Berny:

"A six foot coiled lanyard would keep the rocket motor from igniting until it was well clear of the aircraft."

So the grenade had a pin with a 6' coil...never see that in films....

Also the slots for the missile fins, open on the inside or their own shaped box? -kind of esoteric.

I'll never forget that interview with Cunningham. 

Bockscar

 

 

Berny:

"A six foot coiled lanyard would keep the rocket motor from igniting until it was well clear of the aircraft."

So the grenade had a pin with a 6' coil...never see that in films....

Also the slots for the missile fins, open on the inside or their own shaped box? -kind of esoteric.

I'll never forget that interview with Cunningham.  

That is a big powerful grenade.  Once the rocket motor kicks in it would throw the grenade to Mach 3 for a range of 30 miles.   

The rear missile fins had a fiberglass box that they would fit into.  Later on the fiberglass was replaced by a  sheet metal cover for the fins.    

Hi ya'll,

I went to the Memphis Kingcon today. Couldn't enter b/c of other commitments, but it's always good to hit vendor tables and see what's being laid out on the tables. Very few Phantoms, only three, but they were great. Someone brought a 32nd "B" in Sundowner markings, a 48th with Diamondback markings, and a conversion to a prototype "A" model. Too bad we couldn't flood a show with our Rhinos. That would be impressive!

Glenn

Lol.   I've been trying to get a 1/32 F4 since I was a kid.  They are just too expensive.  Although now, I could really justify the expenditure.  Even some of the 1/48 kits are becoming problematic for me.  I'll suck up to the Wife for a few months and see if I can talk her into a Revell...  LMAO.

In other news.  Still waiting for FGR2 parts, it is going to be a few weeks.  The last time I had to get parts, it was about 3 weeks.  My replacement resin intakes arrived the other day so I can at least get that taken care of since I have new body halves.  Although I may have to wait.  I don't remember if it's possible to put on the vanes after mounting the resin.  I repaired my C model Revell kit as best I could.  I may battle damage it a bit to cover the damaged joins to the stabilators.  Marissa's J is badly damaged, but she's trying to fix it.  I may let her skip it and do her Blue Angel phantom instead.  I'll have to see how well it is working out tomorrow.

That's it for now.  Happy Veterans day to you all!

Rich

mississippivol

Hi ya'll,

I went to the Memphis Kingcon today. Couldn't enter b/c of other commitments, but it's always good to hit vendor tables and see what's being laid out on the tables. Very few Phantoms, only three, but they were great. Someone brought a 32nd "B" in Sundowner markings, a 48th with Diamondback markings, and a conversion to a prototype "A" model. Too bad we couldn't flood a show with our Rhinos. That would be impressive!

Glenn

berny13

 

Bockscar:

 

 

 

Berny:

"A six foot coiled lanyard would keep the rocket motor from igniting until it was well clear of the aircraft."

So the grenade had a pin with a 6' coil...never see that in films....

Also the slots for the missile fins, open on the inside or their own shaped box? -kind of esoteric.

I'll never forget that interview with Cunningham.  

 

 

That is a big powerful grenade.  Once the rocket motor kicks in it would throw the grenade to Mach 3 for a range of 30 miles.   

The rear missile fins had a fiberglass box that they would fit into.  Later on the fiberglass was replaced by a  sheet metal cover for the fins.    

Berny;

Thanks for that, By the way, It being Veteran's Day (Monday) and all, I was just wondering, would you care to share a story about some situation you found yourself in, maybe a Phantom crew you always wondered about, or wished for a better outcome on their behalf?

We don't have a lot of opportunities to hear things from the guys that were there, like in 'Nam, unfiltered through the media, and if your not really inclined I understand.

Most of us go to work, make decisions, and everyone comes home afterward. But guys like you and Rex, your decisions were in fact life and death, but just part of your everyday routine.

Anything ever happen that kept you up at night, a close call, a dumb luck story, maybe isn't classified or political? I've always been a student of how people actually think and act under pressure, then how they live with outcomes in the big picture. 

By the way, thanks for the info on the Sparrow launching mechanism, my dad always said if there was no mechanical connection, don't expect a mechanical outcome.....

Thunderbolt379

Sorry to hear that, redraider -- not to worry, there'll be more Rhino builds in future, I'm sure!

I went ahead and doctored the trunion covers on the -J. Here's the work at mid-point:

The wing looks a lot cleaner with that great slab gone. The right wing is now done, filled and sanded too.

I've been looking for a pic of the accurate cover, my impression is a smooth aerodynamic taper from fore to after, with a chamfer/incline at right and left. Does anyone have a good pic? Bob Dorr's Phantoms Forever doesn't have a very close angle, unfortunately, but there are more sources to check. I remember we had a builder here not long ago accurize this aspect, but with over 120 pages of posts now it's a bear finding anything in particular. (If I had my wits about me I'd have created an index post, updating it as we go... What a good idea, perhaps directly following the leader post, so we can always find specific things... Well, not this time, real life is a bit too insistent!)

Cheers, Mike/TB379

Nice job cutting Mike, no complaints this side of the globe, Yeah, if woulda' just masked an free-hand shaved with a flexible blade, Rex called it pretty good, i didn't understand the shape until I saw it, Rex knew what you were talking about.

Soon I will have a Dremil, mask and cut the grass with a styro-mower, no application of fertilizer required post cut! Keep cuttin' Mike, soon you'll be infected by the "scratch" pal.....

first, a gentle reminder,,,,,compared to Mike and Berny,,,,,I am a young guy,,,,only 54,,,,,,so, as I said before (I think),,,,I didn't start until 1975

also,,,,I'm fairly sure the Mike already has had the scratch bug for a bit longer than I have, lol,,,,,,back issues of magazines are cool when you go looking for Phantom models as inspiration,,,,,,,nice build of that old Hasegawa 1/72 kit back then, Mike

any of my "sea stories" would mostly include Skyhawks and snowplows,,,,,NAS Glenview is a bit famous for it's "lake effect trapping" abilities,,,,,and a very short time around Phantoms as the actual aircraft,,,,,mostly wherever I was, the huge beasts were taking up space we could have used for 4 of our aircraft,,,,,,,,,,and no matter which aircraft I was around,,,,the yellow gear was my job

I did have the pleasure of serving with/under one of the original F-4 Black Knights and later on, a Silver Eagle,,,,,,,if you call serving with an Uncle in the same service a pleasure, lol

as for Monday,,,,,,,I will say  Semper Fi for another Uncle,,,,,,Gunny Vic Herr, a Korean War  vet tank commander, and 2 tour Vietnam vet tank commander

Rex

TarnShip

first, a gentle reminder,,,,,compared to Mike and Berny,,,,,I am a young guy,,,,only 54,,,,,,so, as I said before (I think),,,,I didn't start until 1975

also,,,,I'm fairly sure the Mike already has had the scratch bug for a bit longer than I have, lol,,,,,,back issues of magazines are cool when you go looking for Phantom models as inspiration,,,,,,,nice build of that old Hasegawa 1/72 kit back then, Mike

any of my "sea stories" would mostly include Skyhawks and snowplows,,,,,NAS Glenview is a bit famous for it's "lake effect trapping" abilities,,,,,and a very short time around Phantoms as the actual aircraft,,,,,mostly wherever I was, the huge beasts were taking up space we could have used for 4 of our aircraft,,,,,,,,,,and no matter which aircraft I was around,,,,the yellow gear was my job

I did have the pleasure of serving with/under one of the original F-4 Black Knights and later on, a Silver Eagle,,,,,,,if you call serving with an Uncle in the same service a pleasure, lol

as for Monday,,,,,,,I will say  Semper Fi for another Uncle,,,,,,Gunny Vic Herr, a Korean War  vet tank commander, and 2 tour Vietnam vet tank commander

Rex

UUmm...you qualify Rex, serving with family, that has got to hurt!....lol...I'm not sure if snowplow is a tired ground vehicle or a C-130 Spooky....lol...

Always loved Skyhawks, unsung, but man they dropped a lot of iron on the nice communal people, bad guys doing that, oh....no....polWarningSignifier...lol.....some things in life do not trigger my guilty feelings...ummm...I like community focused people.....lol....

Rex, anything storywise you can share, I never forget pain...lol...it may seem minuscule to you, but it is gold to the rest of us.....never heard of Gunny Vic Herr, please spill the beans Rex.....