The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

I am so glad that we have Berny here to set the world straight on everything about the F-4. In my time in the U.S.A.F. , I found out that the smartest people in the U.S.A.F. were crew chiefs!  Just ask Berny!  I've been trying to keep my mouth shut about this but I can't. Everything that Berny says, is not always gospel. If you guys think that he wrote the McDonald Douglas Tech Orders on the Phantom.......he didn't. Don't let him get away cheap. Now he's got you wanting to believe he was flying them. Next thing you know, he will start expounding on load factors on the control surfaces in certain conditions and which compression stage is the most important on the J79. I thought when I joined this group build it might be a problem with Berny's immense knowledge overpowering the build. To me, it is a problem. At this point , I will pull out of this build and leave it to the expert.

Dean

berny13

Son Of Medicine Man:

Berny:  What is the FS color to use for the cockpit of a Vietnam era F-4E?

Ken

 

FS36231

Thank you Berny, I appreciate the information.

Ken

f-4phantom

If Berny said it was FS36231 would you believe him without any research on your part?

Dean

Yes I would.  His experience while in the Air Force working on the F-4 coupled with his knowledge of model building makes him an expert on the subject in my book.

Ken

If Berny said it was FS36231 would you believe him without any research on your part?

Dean

Son Of Medicine Man

Berny:  What is the FS color to use for the cockpit of a Vietnam era F-4E?

Ken

FS36231

Berny:  What is the FS color to use for the cockpit of a Vietnam era F-4E?

Ken

Same here with the snow.  I usually use our enclosed front porch for painting, but it's so cold out that the electric heater I normally use out there, can't keep up.  So I am doing what assembly I can for the various GBs I'm in.

kustommodeler1

Well, as of right now there is STILL 5 inches of snow on the ground, and only slightly above freezing, so I'm stuck on the build for a bit. Cant paint in the house due to wife's athsma, and late tonight thru tomorrow night we are supposed to get another round of snow, they are guessing 4 to 6 inches.

 

Did I mention I'm tired of winter?

 

Oh well, I'll post progress when I can show some, in the meantime I'm doing work on kits for the Monogram Mafia GB

Well, as of right now there is STILL 5 inches of snow on the ground, and only slightly above freezing, so I'm stuck on the build for a bit. Cant paint in the house due to wife's athsma, and late tonight thru tomorrow night we are supposed to get another round of snow, they are guessing 4 to 6 inches.

Did I mention I'm tired of winter?

Oh well, I'll post progress when I can show some, in the meantime I'm doing work on kits for the Monogram Mafia GB

kustommodeler1

Bockscar:

 

 

 

J79's changed the dog-fight world by adding another dimension: Straight up!

F-4's could fight in 3 dimensions, and given the pilot's tolerances could change the entire playing field in a dog fight..

I think that adding a whole vertical fight-spce to dog fighting made the F-4 a supreme dog-fighter.

i just cannot believe it was SHORT-SOLD because technocrats thought the gun -era was over!

XYZ -- ROLL PITCH YAWH -- GIMMEE Y -- ROCK N' ROLL!

Yeah well, lots of guys died trying to take advantage of another dimension. 

In my mind the  F-4 is the vertical game changer in dog-fight history, corrections appreciated...

Dominic

 

 

There's only one thing to remember about the Phantom's dog fighting capabilities, is that the Phantom has to fight at high speed to be effective. In order to alleviate that slight disadvantage to an extent,  the leading edge maneuvering slats came to be designed and fitted.

 

Newer craft like the Eagle, Tomcat, SU-27, MIG-29 can still slow down and turn inside the Phantom if the Phantom pilot gets his speed scrubbed off. He has to dive away and re-engage when the speed is back up.

Not so.  The F-4 would take the whole state of Texas to turn at high speed.  The F-4 used one trick to gain speed.  It was called "Unload" where the pilot would pull negative G's and select max AB on both engines.  The result was very rapid acceleration.  At low speeds the Phantom could turn very sharp but could not keep up its air speed when doing so.  By turning, unloading, and max AB, it could pull more G forces than the lighter Mig-17 & 21.  The F-4 could then gain the advantage or excape if needed.  In a zoom none of the Migs could match the F-4.  Another dog fighting move the Phantom used was the zoom, split S, and roll back on to the enemy aircraft.  The crew often used the term "Yankin, bankin, turnin, burnin" when talking about a dog fight or DACT.

Supersonic dog fighting is done only in Hollywood.  The ideal speed for engagement is around 400-450 KTS.  At that speed the F-4 could hold its own, but not for long.  That is why Phantom crews tried to avoid dog fights, relying on BVR missile kills. 

Bockscar

 

 

 

J79's changed the dog-fight world by adding another dimension: Straight up!

F-4's could fight in 3 dimensions, and given the pilot's tolerances could change the entire playing field in a dog fight..

I think that adding a whole vertical fight-spce to dog fighting made the F-4 a supreme dog-fighter.

i just cannot believe it was SHORT-SOLD because technocrats thought the gun -era was over!

XYZ -- ROLL PITCH YAWH -- GIMMEE Y -- ROCK N' ROLL!

Yeah well, lots of guys died trying to take advantage of another dimension. 

In my mind the  F-4 is the vertical game changer in dog-fight history, corrections appreciated...

Dominic

There's only one thing to remember about the Phantom's dog fighting capabilities, is that the Phantom has to fight at high speed to be effective. In order to alleviate that slight disadvantage to an extent,  the leading edge maneuvering slats came to be designed and fitted.

Newer craft like the Eagle, Tomcat, SU-27, MIG-29 can still slow down and turn inside the Phantom if the Phantom pilot gets his speed scrubbed off. He has to dive away and re-engage when the speed is back up.

El Taino:  Your Phantom is looking very nice!  Good job so far!

Ken

Here is a picture update of my WIP. Most of the available time has been on the cockpit. I've been scavenging the Verlinden Resin Kit to detail a bit the stock cockpit of my Tamiya 1/32 Phantom. I decided not to use the PE radar and accs. There are a lot of PE parts on the fret that are not mentioned on the instructions sheet, so I have no idea what are they for or go.

TarnShip, thanks for your elaborated explanation. Your time is well appreciated. It matches as well with previous post from Berny. I just wanted to double chec because like I said, I've seen pictures where the Phantom looks kin of light gray. Here a few examples:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/mcdonnel-douglas-f-4-phantom-ii-1.jpg

http://www.foxco-2ndbn-9thmarines.com/f-4phantom.gif

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/gallery/images/f4/d4c-118012-2.jpg

http://members.chello.nl/m.waterloo/images/f-4j/f-4j-phantom_155759.jpg

Thunderbolt379

Dominic -- that's right, four J-79s.Ii once heard the F7F Tigercat described as being like two Corsairs flying in close formation, and that would make the B-58 two Phantoms flying awful close!

Is there interest in a B-58 group build developing here? If so, I'd sure think about taking part, as I have half a dozen Hustlers in my stash, across six scales, some of them fit-the-box...

Cheers, M/TB379

J79's changed the dog-fight world by adding another dimension: Straight up!

F-4's could fight in 3 dimensions, and given the pilot's tolerances could change the entire playing field in a dog fight..

I think that adding a whole vertical fight-spce to dog fighting made the F-4 a supreme dog-fighter.

i just cannot believe it was SHORT-SOLD because technocrats thought the gun -era was over!

XYZ -- ROLL PITCH YAWH -- GIMMEE Y -- ROCK N' ROLL!

Yeah well, lots of guys died trying to take advantage of another dimension. 

In my mind the  F-4 is the vertical game changer in dog-fight history, corrections appreciated...

Dominic

Son Of Medicine Man

Well it looks like the repair was successful.  Here are a few pictures:

 

 

Now I need to wash the resin and let it dry over night.  Tomorrow is when it gets serious.

Ken

Serious Ken;

More detail in your cockpits than my entire 1/32 build.

Dominic

Well it looks like the repair was successful.  Here are a few pictures:

Now I need to wash the resin and let it dry over night.  Tomorrow is when it gets serious.

Ken

Sparrowhyperion

Ouchies....  I hope the Acetone didn't get on anything valuable.  I know what that stuff can do to plastic...  If I start a B58 build, it won't be until I at least get a couple of my others started.  I'm in 3right now, but one is a crossover with another one (Secret Santa and Too Many Props builds, 1/32 Revell BF110).  The third is the F4 Build.  So maybe at the end of Feb or first week of march, I might start one.

Rich

 

 

TB379:

 

 

 

Gents;

If I win the lottery I'm going to Old Model Kits and and I'll tell Al I want all of his B-58 inventory!

I'm in!

8 stashed, 3 WIP's, 5 scales, I should save my Hustler notes for the group build, many stories to tell...

My F-4 Flugel just got another coat of putty, but it's getting thinner.

Rich I spilled 2 oz of acetone on my desk, no cat, just me...I was thinning the Testor's putty...

Mike/TB379: Many thanks to the Digital Diva for the great badges!

 

 

Hey no rush Rich, I'm still battling the scars on the Flugel.

Luckily I keep lots of shop towels handy...and the fan was going full blast...and 2 oz is the max volume on my bench...I threw the towels out the door, that took care o f 80% of it.

Thank gosh I was a WHMIS coordinator in a past life.

Luckily no damage to any styrene, but I sure didn't want to 'inhale.'

Today I glued in the fuselage liners to correct the tolerance issue, the port liner took 36 minutes to shape. I had to re-align the instrument panel of all things...

I can hear Superbowl revellers outside and the game hasn't eve started!

Hi Everyone!

I just started on my F-4E.  The first order of business is repairing the throtle control sticks by gluing them back onto the cockpit.  It took quite a bit of adjusting with my "Helping Hands Octopus" and some tape, but I finally got it where I think it should be.  I placed some CA on it, and now I am waiting before I move anything just to be sure the CA is diry.

On the note of a Hustler build, you can totally count me in!  A very cool bomber to be sure.

That is good news Mike that your part of the country is not getting all that rain.  I feel for those who are suffering through it.

Right now I am so wore out from shoveling snow.  I would be perfectly fine if I never saw another snow flake for the rest of my life!

Well, I will let you know how the control sticks fair in a little while.

Ken

Ouchies....  I hope the Acetone didn't get on anything valuable.  I know what that stuff can do to plastic...  If I start a B58 build, it won't be until I at least get a couple of my others started.  I'm in 3right now, but one is a crossover with another one (Secret Santa and Too Many Props builds, 1/32 Revell BF110).  The third is the F4 Build.  So maybe at the end of Feb or first week of march, I might start one.

Rich

TB379

 

 

Gents;

If I win the lottery I'm going to Old Model Kits and and I'll tell Al I want all of his B-58 inventory!

I'm in!

8 stashed, 3 WIP's, 5 scales, I should save my Hustler notes for the group build, many stories to tell...

My F-4 Flugel just got another coat of putty, but it's getting thinner.

Rich I spilled 2 oz of acetone on my desk, no cat, just me...I was thinning the Testor's putty...

Mike/TB379: Many thanks to the Digital Diva for the great badges!

Sparrowhyperion

I am thinking of starting one and calling it the "Do the Hustle" group build. 

 

Rich

 

 

Thunderbolt379:

 

Dominic -- that's right, four J-79s.Ii once heard the F7F Tigercat described as being like two Corsairs flying in close formation, and that would make the B-58 two Phantoms flying awful close!

Is there interest in a B-58 group build developing here? If so, I'd sure think about taking part, as I have half a dozen Hustlers in my stash, across six scales, some of them fit-the-box...

Cheers, M/TB379

 

 

Gents;

If I win the lottery I'm going to Old Model Kits and and I'll tell Al I want all of his B-58 inventory!

I'm in!

8 stashed, 3 WIP's, 5 scales, I should save my Hustler notes for the group build, many stories to tell...

My F-4 Flugel just got another coat of putty, but it's getting thinner.

Rich I spilled 2 oz of acetone on my desk, no cat, just me...I was thinning the Testor's putty...

Mike/TB379: Many thanks to the Digital Diva for the great badges!

what year or other info on your F-4J?

forget the sheen for a moment, but, unless you are doing a very late TPS NavAir bird,,,,,,it's Light Gull Gray on top, and White on the bottom, with White on all control surfaces, top or bottom

if the date is right, you might also see your bird in overall Light Gull Gray, with White still inside of the doors and wells as before,,,,,,,,,the dates also dictate the sheen, but, I cheat and make all mine overall satin,,,,,not much point in getting some of the sheens right,,,no one has ever built a Phantom model with ALL the sheens right that I have ever seen

but, early days,,,,,,Flat Light Gull Gray topside, Gloss White underside and control surfaces, and inside wells, etc,,,,,,,later in the early seventies, Gloss top and bottom

the Gloss wore into a more Flat look with service wear,,,,and the Flat sort of "boot polished" up into a more Glossy look,,,,,,,hence my choice of Satin, that meets both in the middle

Rex

edit, just scrolled on back and saw you are building the F-4J Warlords,,,,,,,if that is the AA tail code for the Bicentennial, that time period makes it Gloss Light Gull Gray on top, and Gloss White in the white places,,,,,,,,,and I left out part of your color question,,,,,,,any photos you see of NavAir birds that appear to be "some gray" on the underside,,,,,,are either just shadowing on an early jet, or the same Light Gull Gray as the top on a late jet,,,,,,,except for the Tactical Paint Scheme jets,,,,,,,those are so tough to call that even kit makers and decal printers hardly ever agree, lol

Underside color?

I'm about to paint some sub-assemblies, I'm not quite clear on the color under the F4-J. I've seen pictures with a white color and others appear to be a very light gray?? Top color is Gloss Gull Gray but I have also seen what it looks like a Neutral Gray. I'm confused, help!!!

Also let me share this link, might be useful

I am thinking of starting one and calling it the "Do the Hustle" group build. 

Rich

Thunderbolt379

Dominic -- that's right, four J-79s.Ii once heard the F7F Tigercat described as being like two Corsairs flying in close formation, and that would make the B-58 two Phantoms flying awful close!

Is there interest in a B-58 group build developing here? If so, I'd sure think about taking part, as I have half a dozen Hustlers in my stash, across six scales, some of them fit-the-box...

Cheers, M/TB379

Awwww No badges with an FGR.2 on them???  wwwwaaaaaaaa..... lol

How about something like this?

:)

Rich

Dominic -- that's right, four J-79s.Ii once heard the F7F Tigercat described as being like two Corsairs flying in close formation, and that would make the B-58 two Phantoms flying awful close!

Is there interest in a B-58 group build developing here? If so, I'd sure think about taking part, as I have half a dozen Hustlers in my stash, across six scales, some of them fit-the-box...

Cheers, M/TB379

Sparrowhyperion

Actually I have 2 identical kits.  Both the monogram 1/48 kits.  It's funny, my first Bomber was the old Aurora Big A Kit of the B-58.  The cool one with the red paint job.

I got one of my kits last year for a great price and then I lucked out again a week or so ago and found this one for so little I had to bid on it and I actually won.   I think I won because people don't like to trust new sellers and this guy only had like 16 sales.  I will always give them a chance as long as it's under $30.

I am keeping my first one sealed and I plan on building the new one.  I already broke the shrinkwrap and I'm getting a supplies list together.

Rich

 

 

Son Of Medicine Man:

 

Rich,

Happy Birthday!!!

I also have a B-58 Hustler in the stash that I want to build someday.  It is one of the kits I built as a kid.  The one in my stash is a Monogram 1/48 scale.  What is yours?  I did a little research on them and it turns out that Grissom Air Force Base, which is just about an hour's drive from here, was one of the bases that they were stationed at.

Ken

 

 

Gents:

Ah yes, the B-58, my second favourite aircraft!  I have a few of the 1/48 Monogram B-58's, and it has a major symmetry issue I'ld love to share, but I don't want to hi-jack this thread. Correct me, but the B-58 had 4 J-79's, the same basic engine as the F-4, so, at least these aircraft are related by powerplant!

Dominic

Thunderbolt379

Dominic -- that's quite the plastic surgey going on there, we're all going to be qualified rhionoplastic surgeons by the time this GB is finished!

Badges are up, gents, see page 1 for a choice of four beauties, courtesy of my sister, the Digital Diva!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

WOW!!!

Badges

Looking forward to earning one!

Dominic -- that's quite the plastic surgey going on there, we're all going to be qualified rhionoplastic surgeons by the time this GB is finished!

Badges are up, gents, see page 1 for a choice of four beauties, courtesy of my sister, the Digital Diva!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

The bottom wing-forward fuselage didn't fit with the top forward fuselage, I had to cut black 'shims', here are the surgical photos for those of you with morbid tendencies:

See the misalignment, the thin white strip is the first shim:

Here' the starboard side between the splitter plate and fuselage, nice tolerances, huh?

I cut two styrene shims/liners in black, two different thicknesses:

Here's the port situation, hey, a much closer fit!!!:

Here's the starboard shim/liner pre-fit, many long miles to go!!!:

The sims/liners:

I'll let you know how the gluing and plasty went.

Before I go, here's a weapons package in 1/48, I saw it on Old Model Kits:

-Dominic

Gregbbear

John, awesome scheme!  That is the one I did in 1/48th last year.  I would love to score that sheet for one in 1/72!  I've gone a little nuts on ebay lately myself.  I picked up a Fujimi Fg.1, a Hase J, Monogram J, Fujimi RF-4B, and an Esci S, all in 72nd scale.  They were all really good prices.  I am itching to start a Rhino!  Keep up the great work fellas! 

Cheers,

Greg

Greg , sounds like you and I are in-sinc with a lot of our builds , I also recently picked up some 2nd hand 1/72 F-4 kits , two Esci F-4C/J , Fujimi F-4K RN and F-4M RAF and a Monogram 1/48 F-4C/D . Also a whole bunch of 1/72 Fujimi A-4 Skyhawk kits for my Israeli stash . Oh and yesterday when I went to the hobby store to stock up on paint , they had a 1/72 Hasegawa IDF RF-4E . All great stuff !!!!!!!!

                                         John