The group build to end all group builds - THE GREAT WAR

Yes the translucent effect of fabric over frame would be impossible to simulate in plastic.

I wonder if extremely thin paper tinted with acrylic paint could be used over frame work to get that look? In larger scales (1/16 +) it would be the only way to go, smaller scales this would be rather difficult or impossible to achieve. 

Great photographs!

This is getting like the argument over 1940 Panzers - photo war. Below is one photo from wwiaircraft that best shows the effect and a period photo of a FE8 that does to my eyes also.  This post cost me a couple of hours because I got sucked into Rosebud's archive - 5100 period photos of about everything you could think of concerning WWI (and earlier) aircraft. Think RAF planes have a boring scheme? Paint one from training command, or better yet a captured Camel with German markings. They have a whole section dealing with crashes and "unfortunate pilots." These are old photos but the real deal. Fascinating stuff. (BTW: I was checking the online instructions on Eduard's site and they want the spars darkened on the wings - the opposite of WingNut. Guess shadows must bring out the artistic license.) No question WWI planes would have been dirty birds. I used to hang around with a guy who raced hydro-boats of some kind at a national level: the engines ran a special fuel that had a good dose of castor oil in it: the smell was awful. I read once (no confirmation) that some pilots used the nauseous smell as an excuse to bring a flask of brandy. Might add that Des on WWI aircraft is a little like some ship builders - he thinks weathering is all over the map for WWI aircraft and prefers "arrival day" condition.

Eric

DoogsATX

Big steps last night! I assembled probably 3/4 of the cockpit...no pics, since I've trapped it in the fuselage halves to set up properly. Hopefully some tonight. 

Also followed Marc's steps on my leather seat. Well, almost. Before hitting the oils stage, I drybrushed it with MM Dunkelgrau. The oils calmed down the effect, so now it's nice and subtle. I'm thinking I may satin coat it next, then drybrush some gloss (anybody have a recommendation for a gloss clear I can drybrush?) to simulate that "shiny" look that patches of a leather chair get over time. Other option would be satin then slight polishing with fine grit on the high areas.

Also went back to the engine with thinned Metallic Black. Much happier.

 

Yes you need a bit of shine for the leather seat. (great job BTW~)

Try this: Swipe a bit of skin oil off your forehead and dry brush on. It works great for any natural semi-gloss look for figures skin, leather or worn paint that has lost its flat finish.

The only disadvantage of this technique is it may cause dust to stick, about bad as flat paint. If you keep your completed models dust free its not a issue.

Here's the link to the Spitfire/Camel formation flight vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6PnKUEFX8g

160 HP rotary and it goes into how to handle the Camel's spark-arrested ignition/throttle system... You can hear him "blipping" the engine at start-up and taxi and no exhaust system... Means it's LOUD, lol..

 It also shows the spaces between the ribs to be slightly darker than the ribs though this could be the rib tape causing a lightening due to thickness of material.

That's my take on it... It's the rib tapes...  Even if you leave the underside in clear dope, the topside is painted, and it's the same as a painting one side of a window... It's gonna be opaque unless there's one helluva strong, direct light source shining through it...

This due to the fuel oil mixture that the rotary engines slung out and the dirt that would be thrown up on this coating by the prop.

Close.. Those engines had a "Total Loss" oil system, meaning that the oil was used up as well... The reason for the cut-out at the bottom of rotary-engined aircraft was to keep this mist of castor oil at the bottom of the fuselage, and keep it from going back into the pilot's face, with it's subsequent side-effects on the pilot's GI tract... Didn't work a 100% though...  

(Not all "Emergency Landings" were because of damage from enemy fire ) No one would say that WW1 pilots suffered from irregularity...

BTW: There's a video I've watched of a Spitfire/Camel (with an authentic Clerget Rotary engine powering it) "heritage flight" that shows the exhaust/oil trail of the Clerget quite well... It almost looks like it's using an airshow smoke-generator... I'll if I can find it.. It's amazing to see that old bird fly with a Spitfire.. The camel is going balls-out and the Spitfire is hangin' on it's prop just above stall speed...

EBergerud They say a picture is worth a thousand words, well here you are.  This photo is of a crashed Sopwith Pup.  It shows the underside quite well.  It is from a Windsock publication and I have seen it published someplace else where it had a caption that said something to the effect that :  The linen and undersides of radial engine planes became quite filthy in a hurry.  This due to the fuel oil mixture that the rotary engines slung out and the dirt that would be thrown up on this coating by the prop.

This photo even quite grainy and poor shows this quite well.  The whole underside even back to the tail feathers is quite dirty.  It also shows the spaces between the ribs to be slightly darker than the ribs though this could be the rib tape causing a lightening due to thickness of material.

Hope it helps.

Doog,

I'm scratching my head about the shading effect that best fits a plane like the pup with doped linen undersides. If you look at WingNut instructions the spars and other frame bits are lighter than the linen base color - about what you'd expect from drybrushing. Des, the guy who runs WWIaircraft argues that at least linen colored aircraft had a translucent effect when looked at from beneath in sunlight. (Check his section on preshading for his techniques and the photos he uses to support the approach.) Consequently, Des' WNW Pup is shaded with the spars etc darker than the linen. Unfortunately it doesn't appear that you can download an expanded image from Wingnut so I can only provide a thumbnail. Des' Pup wing is below it. A photo from the delightful Rosebud's World War I and Early Aviation Photo Archive shows something of what I think Des is looking at. Might also add that it looks both want the khaki to cover the lower edges - that's going take some careful work to get right.

(Doog: I've got that airbrush needle on my overworked brain. You using an old needle like a dental pick or is it in an old airbrush and you push it into the target with the airbrush control?)

Eric

Doogs, Mike & Marc, You guys are killing meI'm gonna have to start the Dr1....

Speaking of the Dr1 do you fellas know if the the Triplane Richtofen flew on his last flight was all red or did it have blue undersides? I have referance photos but i still can't tell....

Wow! There's some excellent work going on here. Really inspiring me to finish up my panzerjager, and start on my Roland.

Nate

The foil clamps really make the connectors stand out. 

Marc, glad you like 'er so far. The fittings around the manifold pipes are molded on. I just painted 'em black and added the foil clamps. I painted the manifold with Testors burnt metal and buffed 'er out. The copper was handpainted with a mixture of Pollyscale copper and burnt sienna acrylic to give it more of a reddish tone. A black wash finished it off.

Been going full-bore on 'er today. I cut some Tamiya tape into 2mm widths (and about 4.5" long) and wrapped it around the four cabane struts to simulate the fabric wrap seen on a lot of these birds.....

Also made a major dent in the interior paintwork, doing the doped linen and much of the woodwork. The linen is Tamiya deck tan faded out a bit with MM sand shot into the center of each panel. The wood is a base coat of Tamiya dark yellow, a generous coat of Future, and finally burnt sienna oil thinned with lighter fluid to speed up the drying time. I had to use about 5 different brushes to get the effect I was looking for ( it looks darn cool in person, trust me!  ).

Kevin looking forward to some photos.

Mike, thanks for the compliment.  Man-o-man that engine is hot.  The weathering on the pipes is great..  A quick description of method and materials would be great.  What about those fittings with the band clamps?  That's OOB too?

I already have an email ion to the guy that was in charge of the vendors for the show for the contact info.

Wing Nut and Doogs...Very nice work!! The leather and the wood are coming out superb.

I think I will try those techniques on another entry for this build. I just picked up a WW1 Ford T Lorry in 1/35 from a Polish Manufacturer (I think). I plan to convert it to left hand drive and mark it as a USMC vehicle that is on display at the Marine Corps Museum in Quantico.

Also started on my WW1 Marine figure conversion. Will post pics tonight or tomorrow.

Great work all and thanks for the details on the techniques!!

Kevin

Doogs, she's lookin' great! I would go with the buffing method on the leather, using either the coffee filter as suggested by Marc or an old dryer sheet (that's what I use). Should look aces with that treatment!

Marc, that is some very impressive woodwork. I'll be using a similar technique on my SE.5. ....and yes, I am very interested in that tapered reamer you used - I'd love to have one of those in my arsenal.

....and finally, some progress pics (but I really need to work on my camera settings). This is the engine, pretty much OOB with the exception of the wiring and the collector tubes, done with styrene rod and small PE strips for the mounting brackets, along with small strips of bare metal foil for the hose clamps. Today I plan on going hot & heavy on the office, so I should have more pics up soon.

The engine look great as does the seat.  For that 'butt slide" shine I would buff it a little with a coffee filter.

I have been looking at 2 wood grain technique to use on this build.  The 1st is the one I use on tool handles which is just oils applied to acrylics and wiped off.  The other actually paints on the darker bands of the plywood and looks truly awesome but will take a lot of practice.  So I set to practicing in the wide open area behind the seat that will not be seen. It looked like it was going to take a lot more practice so I tried the dry, stiff, clean bush stroke blending technique that is fast becoming my favorite weathering tool.  After a light coat that was wiped away with a piece of  packing foam, I made some dashed with a flat brush loaded with oil paint and flattened to a shard chisel edge.  A few blending stroke and the 2 technique combined into a look I that I am pretty happy with.

I got this tool at MosquitoCon over the weekend.  It is a very fine pointed reamer that the tip will fit inside the Lion Roar tubing.  Cleans the cutting burr and opens the end great.  And it was just a dollar.  I can find out who that vendor is if anyone has an interest.

Big steps last night! I assembled probably 3/4 of the cockpit...no pics, since I've trapped it in the fuselage halves to set up properly. Hopefully some tonight. 

Also followed Marc's steps on my leather seat. Well, almost. Before hitting the oils stage, I drybrushed it with MM Dunkelgrau. The oils calmed down the effect, so now it's nice and subtle. I'm thinking I may satin coat it next, then drybrush some gloss (anybody have a recommendation for a gloss clear I can drybrush?) to simulate that "shiny" look that patches of a leather chair get over time. Other option would be satin then slight polishing with fine grit on the high areas.

Also went back to the engine with thinned Metallic Black. Much happier.

There is some seriously nice work being done around here!

Mike, great to have you on board!

Marc, that's some first-rate stuff! The interior walls looks great, and I am DEFINITELY stealing your method of replicating the leather - best replication of that stuff I've seen - EVER! It'll sure come in handy not only for the seat, but also for that padding around the 'pit opening.

Doogs, excellent progress on the 'pup - I'm really enjoying the "pupdates"  ....and I'm glad to hear you're having no real issues with the rigging - it really is not as scary as it appears.

I am going to do my best to get some pics up tonight - the engine for sure, and hopefully some 'pit pics tomorrow.

Great.  Glad to have on board Mike.  Cool looking plane.  Looks like it's bent though

Add me in, with Aeroclub's 1/48 R.E. 8

This will be in honor of the memory of my grandfather who was a mechanic on the old "Harry Tate" as he would call it.

Mike T.

Today has been a good day.

I figured out how to wrap .003" wire around an eyelet at the end of a .007" without it breaking.

And I got my Aber Spandau upgrade set in the mail.  Oh baby is it nice.

AND the statement that came from Great Models Webstore with the Aber set from said I had a $40 credit..  The down side of hthat is that I haven't ordered from them for like 3 years and they had my money all that time.  But this is lkike gettingthe Aber set for free and there is still more credit left

waikong

All this great stuff about buckles and rigging, makes me afraid to start my plane as I feel I muse use buckles! On the otherhand I think it will solve the issue with fixing a finished rigging that comes loose.  Maybe I should do a Fokker DR I first, very little rigging.

Ugh - I wrote out a nice little reply, and the internet ate it.

Suffice to say, I was terrified of rigging at first, but now that I've gotten a few lines under my belt, I actually kind of enjoy it. Still think all the wing rigging is going to be an exercise in eyestrain, but I'm not anywhere near as intimidated as I was. Honestly, all the eyebolts and turnbuckles and the double-loop method make the rigging relatively foolproof. Tedious, but foolproof.

You guys have all been doing a fantastic job in this GB, especially for one that hasn't officially started!

That figures looks great - love the dynamic tension in the pose.

All this great stuff about buckles and rigging, makes me afraid to start my plane as I feel I muse use buckles! On the otherhand I think it will solve the issue with fixing a finished rigging that comes loose.  Maybe I should do a Fokker DR I first, very little rigging.

Thanks doogs.

Did you see the posts about how I did the lower hull on the Stug III and the roads wheels on the Marder M?  Same thing.  Started with base coat of Vallejo red leather which a is a bit lighter in color.  Then I applied a thin all over coat of raw umber with a touch of burnt sienna artist oil.  Using the stiff clean brush wiped much of it away leaving it down in the recesses.  Then I went back and put more of the oils in the recesses only and let it dry a little bit... about 10 minutes.  Then again with a clean dry stiff brush to blend that out.  A few very fine random spots of the oil that I blended by rolled a Q-Tip on its side back and forth over the spot.

wing_nut

Doogs you posted while i was typing.  That is some Sierra Hotel interior work.

Thanks!

You as well - LOVE that seat! Looks exactly, dead-on like leather! Would you mind going a bit more in-depth on how you got that look? I'm about to start "leatherizing" my seat soon, but not sure exactly how I want to proceed...

Doogs you posted while i was typing.  That is some Sierra Hotel interior work.

Great looking figure Jack.  I felt like I needed to step out of his way.

A "real" update this time with photos.  Sadly with an Albatros D.Va there is nothing as clever as "Pupdate" to do.  Ah well that's life.

Ejector marks filled, and interior gets the base colors

The seat was made a little wider on the sides since it looked a little more rounded at the top.  The inside was covered with Tamiya tape for a bit of texture.  The bottom has some tissue underneath for a padded look and then i made a slice with the back of a blade which pulled out some of the tissue to look like a tear in the leather.  Tough to see in the pic but in the face to face it really looks good.  Paint is Vallejo with artist oils

And the beginning of what will be a large pile of eyelets and turnbuckles ends

Another morning Pupdate! 

Bench time's been seriously impacted the past few days. I swear, my son turned three, and decided he's no longer able to fall asleep in his own room. Like a friggin' switch. Anyway, it's pretty much wrecked the family routine, so I've been going out to the garage an hour later than usual. 

Got a whole bunch of small stuff done last night. Painted the fastening brackets, the seatback, the details on the IP, etc. Tonight I'm hoping to rig up the control wires and maybe start gluing the cockpit together.

Also been playing with the engine. Love the detail - need to go darker for the cylinder/cooling fin detail, I think - but one thing that hacks me of is the way the pipes are molded right onto the crankcase cover. Makes busting out Alclad a huge masking pain, so I'm trying to get that burned metal look with pigments. I think I'm getting there.

DoogsATX

 

Bockscar:

 

 

Doogs;

You mentioned "First...Gator's Grip glue, while generally excellent, yeah, not so much for eyeholes. Too much give. Ended up having to CA all the eyeholes back in place, ...", if I got that right, CA crystalizes and isn't as 'plastic', the Gator 'gives' or stretches a micro too much?

Also, does the Gator have anywhere near the capillary flow of the CA?

Thanks

 

 

Exactly. Gator's Grip has excellent shear strength because it's not as brittle as CA. Once CA "cracks", that's it. Whereas Gator can "bounce back". I've found it very useful for a lot of applications, but in this one, maybe it's a matter of the miniscule surface area, but it has too much give to really lock the eyebolts into their holes. CA, meanwhile, has excellent tensile properties in that regard. It's the constant low-level tension on the lines that causes the problems.

Was hoping to get around the somewhat unforgiving nature of CA...oh well.

Also, nowhere near the capillary flow of CA. At least not extra thin CA. It's pretty close to white glue. Maybe a slight bit thicker.

That's pretty mucha print. I've found the extra thin CA is fab for really tight applications, and anything else will not 'capillarize'. 

Also, CA when polymerized becomes very brittle and unforgiving. Also, beyond pure tensile, it gives way dramatically when induced to other forces (alternative vectors).

Besides, having had a pound or two of it's fumes, I am way beyond allergic!

Again thanks for your notes on your build and materials, the comment about what happens when your wires get crossed with CA were appreciated....will keep several tools on hand...

Bockscar

 

Doogs;

You mentioned "First...Gator's Grip glue, while generally excellent, yeah, not so much for eyeholes. Too much give. Ended up having to CA all the eyeholes back in place, ...", if I got that right, CA crystalizes and isn't as 'plastic', the Gator 'gives' or stretches a micro too much?

Also, does the Gator have anywhere near the capillary flow of the CA?

Thanks

Exactly. Gator's Grip has excellent shear strength because it's not as brittle as CA. Once CA "cracks", that's it. Whereas Gator can "bounce back". I've found it very useful for a lot of applications, but in this one, maybe it's a matter of the miniscule surface area, but it has too much give to really lock the eyebolts into their holes. CA, meanwhile, has excellent tensile properties in that regard. It's the constant low-level tension on the lines that causes the problems.

Was hoping to get around the somewhat unforgiving nature of CA...oh well.

Also, nowhere near the capillary flow of CA. At least not extra thin CA. It's pretty close to white glue. Maybe a slight bit thicker.