Spitfire GB

Really fine build Noah. Pity about the decals. That FloatFire certainly looks intrigueing. I'm rather curious to see her come together. I too like the decals.

                                                       Joe                            

Noah T

Anybody read Russian?

 

Wow - my Russian is a little rusty - I hope there are illustrations!

Looks really good, Noah.  I also had some decal trouble with mine, although I used Xtradecals for the markings. 

For touchups, I've been using acrylic craft paint from Michaels, various brands, whatever comes close.  Being water based, they can't damage the basic finish, since I use lacquers and enamels for that.

Nevertheless, nice work.

And a Floatfire.  Who'd have thought?  Love the instructions, but can't help there.

I'd like to join this GB.  I'm new to model making,  have just finished a MK IX  1/48 from Academy .   Thank you Buddy Bergman 

Ok I'm calling the Airfix Mk1 done. I had some decal issues with the tail markings and the port roundel. The touch of paint I added there stayed domed.

next to its airfix mk1 hurricane

and now.....to introduce the FLOATFIRE!

small number of good enough parts.

nice looking decals

Anybody read Russian?

ww2psycho

I've also updated the front page. Last day for sign up is a year -10 days from when it started.

Why not make it an ongoing thing, like Hans' B-25 group?

Either way, I'd like to officially enter another build - PCM's 1/32 Spitfire Mk.XIV. 

Not sure about the other Spits in my stash. Got some fun things I want to do with my two Tamiya Vbs, but I have a lot of fun things I want to do with a lot of my stash, and not enough time to do them all!

Thank you, Jack.  Your comments are very kind.

In researching Spit camouflage on the net, I read that eventually the workers in the factories took it upon themselves to "freehand" the camouflage without the rubber masks normally utilized, and so some soft-edge was evident.  In 72nd, it doesn't matter to me very much, and I admire people who do get soft-edge results.  I tried it once with Zabreski's P-47 with mixed, but acceptable, results.  Not outstanding, not horrific.

Also, I did see the article in FSM abut the sanding method.  Initiallly, taking sandpaper to paint gives me the willies, but I may try it on a project of lesser importance some time, to see how it works.  Thanks for reminding me of the method.  It had slippped my mind. 

I was browsing the WWI group build earlier this week, and saw some of your work there.  You are very accomplished and talented.  Your artistry is exceptional.

I am finished now with alll three Spitfires, but haven't had time to do photography yet, and tonight is a late work night.  I hope by Thursday or Friday to get the end results up.  This has been a fun build, and I've picked up a lot of all-around useful  information.  

checkmateking02 ] - your production assembly on the spitfires is looking great.    Your method of making your camou patterns is neat and will have to keep it in mind when the need arises.   Incidentally, early in the spitfire' career the camou indeed was hard edge.  Later on rules became a bit more lax, but the Ministry advised to keep overspray down to a minimum, maybe one inch in real scale, to keep the "aerodynamic smoothness" of the aircraft's surfaces.

Regarding washes on the surfaces, black will probably be too stark a contrast particularly at this small scale - but in the end ithey are your models.  I can see using a darker wash in areas that have moving parts such as the ailerons, rudder etc and of course the ejector chutes.  Raised panels lines really need a different approach (a recent issue of finescale addressed this).  Basically they need to be painted a dark colour beforehand followed with a clear protective coat of some kind.  Then you would paint the base colour and once dry, lighty sand to expose darker panel lines.

regards,

Jack

Here is LO-P with a wash applied to the undersurfaces.  This is the new mold with engraved panel lines, and the wash went on with no problem.  Better still, it wiped off with no problem from the areas I didn't want it.  It's acrylic craft paint from Michaels, called "Hunter Green" (I think; I put the bottle back in the basement already). 

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Next is the topside of LO-P.  I also applied a wash of the darkest brown I could find at Michaels--Raw Umber.  I put it over the whole thing, but you can see it didn't make much of a difference against the DE/GR.

Is it better to use straight black as a wash, then? 

By the way, above the model is the profile I used as reference.  I thought I got it here off the FSM threads, but I can't find it again.  So my thanks to the contributor.

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Below is DW-T (old mold), topsides then undersurfaces.  Again, the raw umber wash didn't make much impact on the DE/DG.

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I also applied a wash, Apple Barrel "Midnight Blue" craft paint to the undersides of DW-T.  I came out lighter and more subtle than I expected, which is OK.  I was hoping it would settle around the raised lines, and, well, outline them. 

Got kind of frustrated, because I started with only a pin wash; didn't look right, so after it dried I did a sludge wash over the whole thing, leaving the pin wash (which by that time wouldn't come off anyway).  Seems it kind of blended everything together a little better.

I used a black wash in the shell ejector chutes.

Somehow, all the photos of QJ-Y disappeared between the camera and photobucket, but I used the same washes on it as on DW-T.

Hopefully I plan to finish everything up this week.  Thanks for looking in.

Thanks, psycho; they are supposed to be like that, to "illustrate" the variations in paints used to approximate the "Sky Type S" ordered by the Air Ministry in early summer 1940.

There's even a pretty detailed discussion here:

/forums/t/140999.aspx

When the topsides are all dark earth/dark green, on all BoB Spitire and Hurricanes, it breaks up the monotony to do something different with the undersides.

nice work checkmate!, the different colors are cool. Are they supposed to be like that or are you trying different ones to see what you like?

I've also updated the front page. Last day for sign up is a year -10 days from when it started.

Made some progress over the last several days.  First are the three Spits, with undersurfaces painted and masked.  Top surfaces were painted already in Dark Earth by the time I remembered to take pictures.

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Here's how the two types of DE look next to each other.  MM DE is far right; WEM are top and left.  There is a noticeable difference in the two interpretations of the color (colour?).

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Next up, I put on the masks to prepare for the Dark Green. 

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Next up are the Spits with the camouflage done.

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And a photo of the undersides, from left:  MM's Duck Egg Blue, WEM's Sky Blue BS 1, and WEM's eau de nil.

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 At first glance, eau de nil is pretty striking.  Amazing that they used this color/colour.  But it grows on ya.

As usual, problem!  It appears I didn't quite get the masks on very well for DW-T.  This will require some touch up.

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I'll get to work on this.  Also am planning on using a wash to bring out the panel lines--something I haven't tried in a while, since it doesn't seem to work for me; but the undersides will look awful plain if I don't do something to them, and only one of the Spits has roundels under there.

Thanks for looking in again.

ww2psycho

Hey, everyone is doing some very interesting and nice looking work. My mind hasent been into the spitfire lately, Im finishing a mustang then going back on the spit. Im not 100% certain but I think I wont have an offical deadline, but rather and official last day to sign up. Once youre in you can take as long as you need to finish and still claim the badge. With how I work on models, its the only reasonable option I think. I hate deadlines...

 I'm all good with that. Fits my building pace just fine.

Hey, everyone is doing some very interesting and nice looking work. My mind hasent been into the spitfire lately, Im finishing a mustang then going back on the spit. Im not 100% certain but I think I wont have an offical deadline, but rather and official last day to sign up. Once youre in you can take as long as you need to finish and still claim the badge. With how I work on models, its the only reasonable option I think. I hate deadlines...

Well my paints came in today, along with some turned brass cannon.

So put me down for Special Hobby's 1/48 Spitfire Mk.VC

This is the markings it will be built in.  Caption for this profile states while flying this particular Spitfire, George Beurling would achieve ace status.  His official killboard though shows that he had only 4 confirmed and two damaged at this point - does that mean a damage counts as half a kill?

regards,

Jack

VanceCrozier

 

Noah T:

 

Hey Guys

I almost have my BOB Mk1 Airfix kit done, just need a little touch up and some detailing.

I just bought a Star Supermarie Floatfire in 1/72nd last night off of ebay ($7.56 shipped). Anybody build one of these before?

 

 

 

A float-fire??? I think I've actually seen a picture or two but didn't realize there was a kit out there!

Trumpy makes a 1/24 Spit V floater...

Noah T

Hey Guys

I almost have my BOB Mk1 Airfix kit done, just need a little touch up and some detailing.

I just bought a Star Supermarie Floatfire in 1/72nd last night off of ebay ($7.56 shipped). Anybody build one of these before?

A float-fire??? I think I've actually seen a picture or two but didn't realize there was a kit out there!

Hey Guys

I almost have my BOB Mk1 Airfix kit done, just need a little touch up and some detailing.

I just bought a Star Supermarie Floatfire in 1/72nd last night off of ebay ($7.56 shipped). Anybody build one of these before?

Thanks Joe, no masks I brush on the bottom color, sand, coat, sand, think, camo, sand, touch up, decals, dull coat.

Thanks, Joe.  I find myself liking both of them a lot. 

Yes, the masks wrap around and meet at the top, although sometiimes I have to fiddle with some extra pieces to fill in here and there.

Thank You Gentlemen for the compliments.

Checkmateking - I really like your comparison build your doing. The concept is very unique and quite interesting. Curious, does your masks wrap around the fuselage and mate on top?

NoahT -  Your camo came out very nicely. What did you use for a mask?

                                                                Joe

Spitfire paint job came out very well, Joe.  Looks good.

I've made some progress on mine. 

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The one on the left is the old mold, the new is on the right.  You can see that the new mold has a separate rudder, also a rearview mirror molded on the canopy.  I had to sand the rear of the canopy to get a fit, and even then it was very snug.  

The new mold canopy sort of hinges at the front of the cockpit and then swings down into place.  The old mold has a hole in the fuselage and a pin on the canopy, and just settles and sits on top of the fuselage. 

I attached the canopies with white glue, then filled in the gaps around them with diluted white glue.  The spinner back plate is in place on both and masked.

I'm ready to paint, and here's a look at my masking technique.  Hopefully it will work.

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First, there's ordinary kitchen type wax paper.  On top of that I taped down some strips of masking tape, wide enough to accomodate the masks.  Then I taped the masks on top of the masking tape with clear packaging tape, so I can see to cut them out.  Once the masks are cut out, I can peel the wax paper away, and they shoudl be ready to stick.  Of course, they will leave a hard edge to the camouflage. 

The masks themselves are old copies of old Eduard masks, which I haven't seen available for sale for at least three years.  They were produced in both A and B patterns, and were pretty handy.  Too bad they appear to be discontinued.  I altered them somewhat using photos and profiles, and sized them to the Airfix Spits by computer.  Remarkably, both old and new molds are so similar in size, I didn't need to change the size of the masks; they fit either one.

I'll be doing the undersurfaces on all three, then the brown; apply masks and paint the green.  Should take a couple of days, with time for the paint to dry between colours.

By the way, I gained a lot from "listening in" to your discussion on national markings, Tim and Jack.  Very informative.  Thanks.

Good work with the Silly Putty. Never tried it before. Looks good.

Hey There All, Managed a bit of progress over the past couple of weeks. I patched together a "Frankenmask" for the camouflage utilizing paper cut outs provided with the kit and silly putty to mask over the fuselage. Trying to piece together a complete paper mask was just a bit frustrating. Here's some pics of the masking.

Airbrushed the MM Dark Green on yesterday morning, let dry for a bit and peeled off the masks......

 I got a bit of overspray under the paper masks in a few spots so I'll be doing some spot masking and spraying to clean those up. Overall, I was rather happy with the results and learned a few things  the way.

 Really like the work eveyone else is putting out there. Very nice indeed.

                                                                Joe   

Good eye there Tim.  Not sure how AZmodels dropped the ball on the upperwing camou pattern.  The sides thou look fine as does the other box art from their other releases in that linked review.

I concur that there were precise dates for specific changes to the spitfire's appearance as I did refer to definitive dates of 1940.  When I wrote "...one can't put these changes into specific time slots" was referring to the actual aircraft in the field - so my fault for any misunderstanding.  Just as you had eluded to, it would take a few weeks, so there would be an overlap.   The Air Ministry was well aware of this.  Unknown to me is of any grace period for the change overs, but the Ministry did expect the various Commands to inform them when all aircraft were up to standards of new schemes.   Now if these documents do exist and are available to the public... well honestly I'm not concerned about accuracy to that degree - lol.

...right then, carry on/british accent

regards,
Jack

Jack,

Artwork can be more confusing than helpful sometimes, unless based specifically on a photograph that is generally available.  I've seen some artwork based on private photos that nobody else has nor has access to (meaning they cannot be verified), and the artwork is fairly unique such as colors and patterns never before seen nor referenced in literature.  As an example, the AZmodel artwork for the top two aircraft should have a camouflage pattern either identical to the bottom artwork, or a mirror image. That's pretty standard throughout the Spitfire history with rare exception (such as desert Mk V's repainted from Temperate Land Scheme to Desert Scheme).

Actually, one can be pretty accurate with time when it comes to Spitfire camouflage and markings. The Air Ministry gave some very specific directions with some good details, except in a couple of well known instances (Sky versus “duck egg bluish green” comes to mind) and each are dated. Units were given a short period to comply, usually just a few weeks. Even during the BoB changes were happening and units were expected to comply. That attrition removed aircraft from service during this period is well known and in many cases updates came in the form of new aircraft or aircraft taken out of service for other reasons like combat damage. The maintainers worked wonders in my mind to get them back in service so quickly as well as Supermarine building new ones so fast the Germans thought the RAF was much larger than it really was.

According to “Spitfire The History”, Supermarine's Woolston and Itchen factories were the production sites during BoB, however Woolston was being dispersed due to threat of bombing in July 1940 so it's not certain from my reading of STH how much production they actually accomplished. In September 1940 production was actually halted on all Mk I's due to Luftwaffe bombings, however the Castle-Bromwich factory was beginning to roll the Mk II off the line so real production was continued but not at the higher rate hoped for until the original factories were back on line. Interestingly, as a result of the BoB those factories were fully dispersed to over 65 locations around Southern England, 46 of which were production and the remainder support units (like repair depots).

Tim

..np about the info, I'm an admirer of the Spitfire and I learned some new things as well.  Agreed, the BoB period was a hectic time and a lot of changes were made to markings and colour during this period.  To quote from a British forum, it is quite a "torturous period".

I'm not sure now if I should have posted those colour plates.  I have assumed the artist did his research, but as a rule of thumb use artwork as a last resort when no photo evidence can be found.  Reason I did post them was to show how varied the fuselage roundel can be within the same squadron.   Both the top and bottom profiles are captioned with the date of August 1940 while  DW<A is from July.   Which goes to show one can't put these changes into specific time slots.  Also looking at the fuselage serial numbers, one would think those in the later sequence would have the smaller roundel, but nope the opposite is happening here.  That could be because the serials are associated with the different aircraft manufacturing plants (and not really have anything to do with the order they have been built in) - can anyone verify this?   Here is the link for more spitfire profiles from the same artist:
http://www.markstyling.com/spitfiresmkl_ll_1.htm

I've also discovered an explanation to the use of 40" upper wing roundels:   "upper wing type 'B' of 40" dia was standard(if anything at that time could be---for absolute certain)! on service spits only 1939---40 and came about by having the standard 56" type A1 altered thus---the blue max. dia. of 40", with the red centre spot extended to 16" and the rest filled in blue--the yellow outer was then filled in with camo. colours"

And for those that can't get enough of 1/72, AZ Models has a made a bunch of them, there are 5 boxings alone of the early marks.   Reviews have it as accurate as Airfix and the details of todays modern kits.  http://www.hyperscale.com/2010/reviews/kits/az7287reviewpm_1.htm

I've several 1/48 Spits in my stash, my plan is to build one of Beurling's mounts while stationed at Malta.   Have some paints on order from Europe, so once they arrive I'll make the comittment to join the Group.

regards,
Jack

Thanks for the information, Jack.  And I think you should join the group build.

One of the appealing things about BoB Spitfires has been the variations in markings.  I imagine it was a very hectic, unsettled time.

Probably the method I've used most for choosing the size of the decal roundels is to cut one out that looks possible, and hold it up against the model, wherever it's supposed to be; then guesstimate whether it looks right or not.

And, in all fairness, just to clarify, Xtradecal does provide two 56 inch roundels on their sheet.  I meant to say it was enough for one aircraft only.  Sorry I was a little (no--a lot) fuzzy when I wrote the earlier post.

As an aside, it looks like DW-K's roundel does encroach at least on the upper fuselage.  From the look of it, the two would have to meet and overlap somewhere up there.

Thanks again.

My guesstimate for those particular photos would have to be in keeping with actual reference material - namely CAMOUFLAGE & MARKINGS No.2 by Scale Aircraft Monographs - I'd go with 35 inches, plus whatever the size yellow ring was added.  The topmost one though seems the yellow is wider than the blue, but it could be the high contrast causing this.

As Tim had revealed  in his last post,  the yellow ring was to be the same width as the existing blue as put forward by the British Air Ministry on the 1st of May, 1940.  Again, this was interpreted differently by various units.  So further instructions were were sent out on May 11th,  "Aircraft with slim fuselages were to have the whole roundel reduced in size in order to accommodate the new yellow outer ring and prevent it encroaching on the upper or under surface of the fuselage."  As a stop gap measure, a narrow yellow band could be used because of limited space.  As a side note, the yellow was added to make the marking more visible, so I'm sure some thought the bigger the better.

Another conference was held on July 23, 1940 for the purpose of standardizing camouflage and markings.  A letter of their new policy, dated 11 August, was sent out to the various commands.   Regarding fuselage roundels, the article I'm reading makes no mention of exact measurements in terms of inches, only that the rings be of all equal size.  So again different units will have their own ideas of how to approach this. 

Now to the question about having different size roundels in the same squadron - I can only guess that changes took time to incorporate.  As well, in the heydays of that summer of 1940, there wasn't much down time to be spared for repainting roundels to specifications.

After all this research/reading, I just might have to join this group and build a Spit too - lol.

regards,

Jack