FineScale Modeler Orphaned Armor Group Build 2014

Would an Italian P-40 tank used by the Germans work?

shivinigh

OK I finished Spidey. Now I can play with the tanks

Great! I'll get him into the Hall of Fame tomorrow morning.

panzer88

Would an Italian P-40 tank used by the Germans work?

Hi Panzer88,

This is close to the Firefly situation we talked about earlier. Because the P40 was essentially produced used by Germany it doesn't fit really. However, if one had been captured and given Allied markings, that would be a go.

Tim, I thought the P-40 was designed and built by the Italian and the Germans only took them on after the Italian surrender.

Bish

Tim, I thought the P-40 was designed and built by the Italian and the Germans only took them on after the Italian surrender.

According to WWIIVehicles.com, no P40s were issued to the Italian army. Only 5 prototypes were produced, and all of them were taken by the Germans when Italy signed the armistice. The Wehrmacht took over production after the surrender and built 100 or so afterward. For our purposes, the P40 doesn't really fit. We have an extensive reference library at the office, and I can look into it further, but I think the citations provided on the website will be corroborated by what I find tomorrow.

Right, I was under the impression that the Italians were still running the production. But I know less about Italian AFV's than I do about Allied. I know it can get a bit awkward with things like this, and you have to draw the line some where or it would be endless.

Interesting looking site that one Tim.

The P40 tank pretty much is like much of the Panzer 38T and variants production run. Produced in an occupied country for use by the Wehrmacht.

Interesting question about the P-40, and Stik, I was just thinking the same situation with the Czech tanks, and even more broadly on the whole allied lend lease program.  

Tough call, and glad I'm not making the decision.

regards,

Jack

After digging around, have been able to find a couple photos of a captured Mark VI in the desert:

There are some obvious differences from the colour profile I had posted earlier.   No white crosses, nor Italian flag draped over the hull front.  Instead, there is a white band painted around the turret, and a tri-colour painted on the front hull. 

Not sure what is happening on the front fenders. Though there is evidence of the caunter scheme, these diagonals look too parallel,  and the b/w density looks similar to the painted hull.  Maybe more flag colours, but in slanted form?

regards,

Jack

Here's what got me excited to do a Matilda in German markings:

I've been doing some poking around online to see if I could find photos of this Matilda. Unfortunately, Tank Encyclopedia doesn't give a heckuva lot of info for it -- just "Infanterie-Kampfpanzer Mark II 748(e), Libya, early 1942." I spent some time digging through tomes in the KPC library. And while we have enough info on Panzers to fill the Reichstagsgebäude, we have precious little on captured British armor in German service. Go figure. I did find this little nugget:

Perhaps not the same vehicle, but close. I have an email in to Tank Encyclopedia to see if they can give me a little more info about the vehicle in question. At least where they came up with the profile art. Then I can contact the artist or original publisher and delve deeper.

jgeratic

Not sure what is happening on the front fenders. Though there is evidence of the caunter scheme, these diagonals look too parallel,  and the b/w density looks similar to the painted hull.  Maybe more flag colours, but in slanted form?

That would be my guess.

Jack: That Mk.IV looks really nice! I can't wait to see you build it!

Tim: Very sharp looking Matilda!

Tim -  that captured Matilda will look very intriguing.  As for colours, I'd trust b/w photoss combined with Mike Starmer's research way before an artist's conception.  If you image google search beutepanzer Matilda, you should find more photos - I found some of your subject that include the Brits repatriating it from the DAK.

There's also this Russian site, well dedicated to foreign tanks in German markings:

http://beutepanzer.ru/index.htm

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Schatten - thanks!  

I will make it official, my entry will be Vulcan's 1/35 British Light Tank MK.VI B depicted in captured Italian livery.

Further studying of those fenders, I'm convinced it is indeed the  Italian tri-colours painted over to cover up British markings.

regards,

Jack

jgeratic

As for colours, I'd trust b/w photos's combined with Mike Starmer's research way before an artist's conception.  If you image google search beutepanzer Matilda, you should find more photos - I found some of your subject that include the Brits repatriating it from the DAK.

Jack, I'm intrigued. I had gone through all the photos on beutepanzer.ru and hadn't found what I was looking for. Could you point me to the images you're referring to?

I'll put you down for the Mk.VIB!

Tim, you mean the repatriated Matilda?  Scroll down to Infantry Tanks, and click page three.

To me it looks like the same tank as the profile you had linked.

regards,

Jack

jgeratic

Tim, you mean the repatriated Matilda?  Scroll down to Infantry Tanks, and click page three.

To me it looks like the same tank as the profile you had linked.

regards,

Jack

I had pondered those pics for a while--it was retaken by Australian troops. I wasn't prepared to pull the trigger and call it the same one. Definitely possible. I want to hear back from Tank Encyclopedia to see where they got their info. If these pics are of the same Matilda, I have a good view of what's on the starboard side of the turret. Also, the machine gun is intact. 

I might try to get a hold of David Fletcher via Osprey to see if he can give me a nudge in the right direction.

Thanks for the help, Jack!

Guys,

Glad to see everyone's enthusiasm for this idea. Here's my build subject, courtesy of the Australian War Memorial:

I'm curious what color the vehicle actually is. Most profiles show it to be desert tan, but some of the photos seem to be darker.

Cheers, Aaron

Quick question, here.

I don't have any armor in the stash right now, but I would seriously consider joining in, depending on how this is answered:

What about American/ARVN armor in the hands of the NVA at the fall of Saigon? Found a pic in a book I read recently about the Fall of Saigon, if I could ID the tank, I'd like to build it.

The reason I ask, there are NO markings on this tank. Would I have to throw a VC on it to show it as an "Orphaned Armor"?

Klik

P.S. Will follow this GB.

Klik,

Stikpusher is doing an M-113 in ARVN, so I see no reason why you couldn't do captured armor in North Vietnamese colors. That would fit perfectly.

Klik

Quick question, here.

I don't have any armor in the stash right now, but I would seriously consider joining in, depending on how this is answered:

What about American/ARVN armor in the hands of the NVA at the fall of Saigon? Found a pic in a book I read recently about the Fall of Saigon, if I could ID the tank, I'd like to build it.

The reason I ask, there are NO markings on this tank. Would I have to throw a VC on it to show it as an "Orphaned Armor"?

Klik

P.S. Will follow this GB.

Thanks, Tim and Stik. (that was fast!)

I'll post up that pic tomorrow, just have to dig up the book. I think it was an M48, but maybe you'll be able to tell for sure. Then, it's off to the LHS for a decent kit (I'm thinking 1/72nd).

I don't know anything about ARVN-used tanks, if they have any specific camouflage scheme, etc., so I'll defer to you guys. From what I saw in the picture, the tank looks just like an average American-used tank, paint scheme-wise, hence my question.

Again, I'll get the pic up tomorrow for you to review.

Klik

stikpusher

Post the photo if you can... it will get ID'd. If it was former ARVN, most likely it will be a M41 or M48.

Thanks for helping out on this one, Stik!

Aaron, that particular M13/40 is likely grey-green, according to a Squadron publication, as well as other sources.  This was the standard factory finish at this time, and after delivery to North Africa, it was up to the receiving unit to give it a more proper desert scheme.  

Given the dire situation erupting in Libya at the end of 1940, it's believed there was no time for a repaint, and these were sent out into the field as is.  Closest FS match quoted is 34159:

regards,

Jack

Jack ,thanks a lot for that link. Some nice stuff on there. I had only seen a couple of pics of German Su 85's but I had no info on units. So after going through the site, I have decided to do this one.

I am guessing the green is the original Russian colour, rather than repainting all DY and then doing the German green over that. 

Aaron: I love those kangaroos on the hull and turret sides!

Bish: That's one interesting looking Su-85! Those large crosses on the hull sides are something else for sure!

I've been looking for stugs in Russian service and only came across the one picture that had markings. Didi the Russians repaint them green or leave them the colour they found them?

SchattenSpartan

Aaron: I love those kangaroos on the hull and turret sides!

Bish: That's one interesting looking Su-85! Those large crosses on the hull sides are something else for sure!

Ye, they are a bit different. The Germans did tend to go over board with the markings on captured vehicles, understandably. As far as I know, the Germans were the only used who actually used enemy equipment on a wide scale, where as the Allies tended to simply take it aware for evaluation.

I plan on doing a dio with it in the process of being re painted and marked, which means I can do a nice clean vehicle for a change.

Well, gents, I received a disappointing response from Tank Encyclopedia:

"Unfortunately i [sic] don't have the source anymore, a photo or reconstruction housed by tinypic (image forum) if my memory's right. Al [sic] infos about it are already on the page."

Hrm.

So, off to Osprey to do some digging over there. I'm enjoying this quite a bit!

EDIT: Aaron and I went snooping around the Australian War Memorial website. Here's the complete collection of photos of the New Zealanders (not Aussies as I said previously) who captured the Matilda. 

So, I'm assuming that the camo scheme was the original applied by the Brits. The Germans added the crosses.

Ok, for your review:

Image source:

Drury, Bob and Clavin, Tom. Last Men Out: The True Story of America's Heroic Final Hours in Vietnam Free Press; New York, 2011

As you can see, it is most definitely an America-made tank (an M48?--I had a toy of this type of tank when I was younger). My question is, since it appears to be painted in the standard American Drab camo, would I have to throw on an NVA soldier to show that it is, indeed, an "orphaned tank"? Or did the ARVN and/or NVA paint these tanks in a unique camo scheme? 

The pic seems to be a little unclear. On a side note, there appears to be some amount of stowage on the top and sides of the turret. Any explanations?

Thanks for the help. I'd love to join in, if this qualifies.

Klik

Klik

Ok, for your review:

Image source:

Drury, Bob and Clavin, Tom. Last Men Out: The True Story of America's Heroic Final Hours in Vietnam Free Press; New York, 2011

As you can see, it is most definitely an America-made tank (an M48?--I had a toy of this type of tank when I was younger). My question is, since it appears to be painted in the standard American Drab camo, would I have to throw on an NVA soldier to show that it is, indeed, an "orphaned tank"? Or did the ARVN and/or NVA paint these tanks in a unique camo scheme? 

The pic seems to be a little unclear. On a side note, there appears to be some amount of stowage on the top and sides of the turret. Any explanations?

Thanks for the help. I'd love to join in, if this qualifies.

Klik

Klik,

I like the idea (great photo!), but I think it needs to be clear that it is in North Vietnamese service from the model. It appears they were only used for a short period of time and may not have been repainted. I found a photo of one at the museum at Khe Sanh which has been painted with North Vietnamese style turret numbers and parade white walls. Scroll down the page to find the image I'm talking about. Otherwise, you could add a North Vietnamese flag from the antenna to indicate it's reorientation. I'm going to check a couple of other sources, so I may know more soon.

Cheers, Aaron