75th Anniversary of 1942 (World at War)

Jack,

Maybe I missed something but one of the posts concerning Chory said that the RAL big wigs did have paint chips from most of the WWII colors, including 7021. But it would not compensate for any irregularity in hues coming from different factories or even different batches. Been told that the Rooskies during the war were throwing almost anything that vaguely resembled an officially approved "defensive green" and that the modeler could arguably use a range of colors going from bright emerald to green/gray. Wouldn't want anything to get in the way of the quota.

Eric

Nice color and nice work applying it, Eric.

Welcome to the GB, haseren4.  I will update the build roster.

What scale and manufacturer will you be using?

Thank you Bish.

-----------------

Eric, good write up on the Dunkelgrau, and that patina aspect is something to consider.  I do have Chory's book in my library, and the 7021 colour chip (not a printed sample but actual paint) is quite dark and could easily pass for black.  About RAL charts, I have read that many formulas were changed soon after the war, so don't know how well modern codes compare to wartime colours.

regards,

Jack

I would like to join in. I'll be doing a Panzer III, a Hanomag, and a Initial Production of the Tiger tank, all in Deutch Africa Corps patterns. That should take me all the way to the new year. We'll see what can get done.0

Nice article Eric. Ican certainly concur with the comments about dust and dirt. Our green/black scheme would soon vanish under a layer of dust and that was just after a couple of weeks on Salisbury Plain. And even after a good hose down, it was never completly removed.

I didn't want to make a research paper out of this, but you can a feeling about what some of the war game geeks think about the issue looking at a forum page from the highly regarded game "Flames of War."

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/239282-wehrmachtsgrau-ral7021/

There are endless references to RAL 7021 as Panzer Gray (renamed from Dark Gray N.46 in 1940). There is some dispute about whether our RAL chips are the same as ours - but as you can see from a source quoted above German data is quite specific. My brew is of course gloss, which makes it look a bit odd. (High Flow is satin - gloss naturally, and I had varnish on for decals and pinwashes.) But after looking through YouTube video builds of Panzer Gray models (and images via google) it's startling how many models are very light and "cool." I brought this issue up now because I don't think that there will be any time during the build that the base color - RAL 7021 or my version of it - is going to be more clear. The opposite is the case.

As near as I can see the guy that has researched this subject is a Czech named Thomas Chory: his work was done in conjunction with the organization that runs the RAL standards in Germany and thus is on another planet from a one page article by Jentz and Doyle based on a typo in a single source. (You'll note that a forum moderator simply takes Jentz/Doyle as gospel and spouts a classic circular argument - that guy flunks any history seminar I've been in or given.) Here's what Chory says (working with paint experts - as in the industrial standards world - not plastic modeling mind you) about how Panzer Gray 7021 would have changed fast:

The freshly applied Dunkelgrau was a dark color, but the vehicles were very soon covered by dust or mud. The dirt adhered well to the matte, and thus porous, surface and after several rainfalls, a light “patina” was formed, which improved the camouflaging effect. There exist many color photographs, which show Wehrmacht vehicles camouflaged in this way while running on dusty roads and melting in perfectly with the surrounding terrain. The vehicles’ appearance was also changed by a gradual oxidation and thus lightening of the Dunkelgrau color. The freshly manufactured vehicles were generally darker than the well used ones. Finally, as mentioned before, different shades of the dark gray were coming directly from production.”

More quotes and the thread is at https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?f=47&t=93310&start=0

I don't really have the foggiest what my beast is going to actually look like at the end of the time, but it ain't going to be blue.

None of this makes any real difference of course. But I spent my adult life teachng, writing and studying history (20th century military as my specialty) and tangents like these are an occupational hazard. (Should point out that my professional background helps not one bit when it comes to making a good model.) And personally, this is the kind of thing that I get a kick out of and I think gives the hobby an extra dimension. Other people may be sane.

Eric

jgeratic

Final details are now sculpted - upper arms, collar lapels, rank tabs and a raised seam across the tops of the shoulders.

A coat of grey primer is on, and can spot a few rough spots that need some touch ups.  The chin too, looks like I undercut it a tad too much, so need to address that.

regards,

 

Jack

 

That is some stunning work there jack.

That grey looks good to me Eric, coming on nicley.

Jack, that makes perfect sense with Agfa film. Their color always appears washed out and nowhere near as vivid as the Kodak color film of the time. Even the best stuff that I have yet come across, the Hugo Jäger file in the Life archives, while still great original WWII color photos, shows this same tendency.

Thanks Check!

------------------

Eric, the panzer is looking good.  For sure, some people might be shocked seeing the grey you have gone with, but is likely more right than wrong.  Even actual wartime photos is not an exact indication of the shade for panzer grey. 
From what I've read, Agfacolor was still ironing out problems with outdoor quality as late as 1941 (according to wiki).  In the book 'Film in the Third Reich', it also mentions after a few years, the blues and yellows on prints would fade as the dyes were unstable.

regards,
Jack

Thought people might appreciate a good example of how the eye plays tricks. As noted earlier, Panzer Gray (RAL 7021) was a very dark gray that was almost neutral, but to my eyes and some other color fans, slightly warm (leaning toward green when lightened.) The photos yesterday were taken with more flash - but they also didn't have the white decals that amplify the darkness of the tank.

I don't know if this is heresy among amor gurus, but I noticed that both Mike Rinaldi and Jose Ruiz, authors of splendid big format color guides to advanced weathering, both have Panzer Gray models that are given blue filters and tints - making very "cool" looking models. They look great - maybe it pleases the eye more, as one guy on a gaming thread commented. But unless all of my paint data is wrong - blue isn't there, unless artistic license puts it there.

Also found out something else that is kind of heresy. A gent named Michael McSwinney (a PhD at that - no idea what in) wrote a nice article for the Flames of War web site. http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=2118 In it he quotes another paint article that takes issue with the old Jentz/Doyle claim that every German tank in France carried a gray/brown camo scheme: Jentz/Doyle despite promises have come up with no new evidence (it was thin) and the photo evidence against the claim is daunting. Anyway, it is at least possible that some German armor was carrying the Panzer Gray camo in May 1940. (That's an old argument of mine: I found several real color photos of Panzer Is and IIs in Poland and France that clearly had two colors but zilch when it came to Pzs III and IV.) It doesn't matter of course unless you want to make a Panzer III or IV that was in the French campaign.

Anyway this is my take on Panzer Gray (RAL 2071) with slight adjustment for scale:

DECals by Eric Bergerud, on Flickr

Eric

Great work, Eric!  Nicely done techniques.  Looking good!

Exceptional, Jack.  A beautiful sculpture!  Well done!

Began playing with colors - as usual I had a fine time, but history got in the way of some plans. First, I borrowed a technique used by Andy (from Andy's Hobby HQ on YouTube - a very nice channel) who preps all of his armor with Tamiya NATO black and Tamiya flat white to create an abbreviated version of the "black and white" weathering technique. I've got a book from Spain about it, and it's an interesting concept. You use black, white and three intermediate shades of gray to create a gradually built-up kind of gigantic preshade before applying the base color. I'll try it some day, considering the white wash and heavy weather to come, I didn't think the elaborate modulation and tonal variations that result from "B/W" would be necessary. I used Golden High Flow white - and it spit a little which ticked me off. It was an old bottle, and a new one solved the problem. But considering the intent, it didn't really matter.

Blk-wht by Eric Bergerud, on Flickr

I did know that Panzer Gray is very dark. I also thought it was a "cool" color posessing some blue. Lots of good modelers use blue filters etc and it looks neat. That would have required creating a chromatic black (most of which have a blue hue - just cut it with white: that's how I create my German ship colors). But I looked into things and Dunkelgrau (or Panzer Gray) really isn't the color normally seen on models. It's very dark, close to neutral and, if anything slightly "warm" - it shows just a hint of green when cut with white but it's very subtle. I found many examples of Gray No. 46 (changed to RAL 7021 in late 1940) but it's tricky on a monitor. One source called for Vallejo Model Color 896 "German Ultra Dark Green Gray" which was a neat color. (I whipped up a really good airbrush brew with it. I used Golden airbrush medium and a polyurethene addative that comes with Mission Models Paint. If you don't mind waiting 20 minutes for the stuff to dry - probably due to both the Mission stuff and the Golden medium - it was great paint and applied splendidly. Obviously no tip dry.) But I'm pretty sure it was too warm. So instead I used Vallejo Granzer Gray Primer (RAL 7021) which I luckily had as a paint swatch. I was able to duplicate it nearly exactly with High Flow carbon black and neutral gray. To keep the tonality range on the surface I cut the paint big time: about 70% airbrush extender; 30% paint: applied in several coats at about 15 psi with a HS Evo with a .20mm tip. When you get used to High Flow it's simply terrific. It went on like really thin butter. I was painting for about 30 minutes and did no airbrush cleaning - I cleared the tip but I doubt it was needed. Naturally the airbrush was a snap to clean. (Those paper point dental tools are very nice for the thing HS nozzles and can't do damage.) This coat also took longer than Tamiya to dry - about 15 minutes. Do note that it's gloss. Because I cut the paint so much you can still see remnants of the white and light gray I put over the primer. It also lightened the paint a bit - although it's a little darker.

I'm actually pretty pleased. The base coat is as smooth as I can make it. Because applying the base so thinned, all of the details are perfectly sharp - zero excess paint. I'll actually be thinking of darkening the tank a bit with filters - even maybe with oils. But not much. Although Dunkelgrau was very dark, it was matt and quickly picked up dust etc and faded very quickly. But after looking at a tons of pictures and checking boards for the war gamers, I think that the World of Tanks guys that complain about German tanks being much too bright, too light and too blue are on the mark. (As one guy said, why would a tank want to carry a camo with a blue hue unless it served for the Kriegsmarine? Actually even the kit's box art shows a tanks that's a dark gray green.) Althoug the thing's already gloss, I'll coat it with Tamiya lacquer clear (I like spray cans) for decals and some pin washes. Then matt varnish and filters. And then..I don't know.

BTW: this tank carries markings for the 11th Panzer which was up to it's eyeballs in Barbarossa. According to Jentz/Doyle the D did not carry storeage and there are photos from the Balkans and Barbarossa training show it. They also show different levels of applique from what I can tell. (One photo shows some Ds towing wagons of fuel - they have big bundles of lots strapped to the back of the turrets: figure that.)  Anyway, it ended up fighting in the Rzhev "Meatgrinder" southwest of Moscow in early 42 before joining Case Blue in the summer: didn't make it Stalingrad lucky for them but were hammered in the winter of 42-43. The division's order of battle in 1943 before Kursk shows only one battalion present in the OOB of June 1941. Ouch. Anyway, lots of room for dead Panzers during the desperate fighting against the Soviet counter offensive December - March 41-42.

Eric

base1 by Eric Bergerud, on Flickr

base2 by Eric Bergerud, on Flickr

Final details are now sculpted - upper arms, collar lapels, rank tabs and a raised seam across the tops of the shoulders.

A coat of grey primer is on, and can spot a few rough spots that need some touch ups.  The chin too, looks like I undercut it a tad too much, so need to address that.

regards,

Jack

Found out something interesting. Someone asked about applique armor - and sure enough I had forgotten to put three pieces on the front. There are a lot of rivets up there and it was possible to miss - but a close look at the box art and diagrams showed the problem. Anyway, I put them on. Decided to tidy it up with Stynelrez which I shot through an HS Evolution with a .40 nozzle. (In the real world that's much thinner than the RG3's .66). I had heard that Stynelrez is difficult to clean. It was no problem in the RG3 but it required a proper clean-up on the HS. The way the RG3 atomizes paint, it would be very difficult for paint to get past the very tip of the needle - and that's all cleaning is - take out the needle and wipe off the tip. (Iwata doesn't encourage people to strip the gun unless there is a serious problem.) Some paints are easier to clean than others, but it may be that the RG3 will be the easiest airbrush/gun to clean. That's a real plus if true. I'll report in.

And for sure a lot of the weathering I'm going to do will not be worth the candle by the end. But I'm interested in some new techniques like "black & white" and using oils to serve the purpose of modulation. (It's very tempting to use Doog's "black basing" on the tank to get random tonality - the black/white kits are great when done by a top modeler, but the base coat they give is really probably too orderly. I think you could say the same about modulation.) Mike Rinaldi is going a new way now - he's switching to water based acrylics and using oils instead of the various enamel products for most of the weathering (minus pigments). His newest 90 video done at a European show a few months back on YouTube gives you the idea. And there's some guy painting a plane with oils alone - a stunt I think, but it could work nicely for painting woodwork on a biplane or AFV tools.

Eric

Hi Eric ... fair enough, an abandoned tank could just as likely have the retrofitted aspects removed to be used for other vehicles.  

Wonder if Tamiya's statement about turret bins needs to be qualified, in that they are correct about the D version leaving factories without the bin?   Squadron's publication (on the Panzer IV) states the D version was retrofitted  with the bin and include a photo dated April 1941.  The vehicle belongs to 6th Panzer Division assigned to the Russian invasion - note no extra armour:

regards,

Jack

You hit a major point Eric. After all the weathering, effects, etc., it's not really necessary to obsess over an exact color shade for the base color. The start point and finish point will not look the same. Especially if things like whitewash come into play.

Good information, Eric; and nice work on the Panzer.

Here's the buggy primed. I show this only because it was my first try with Badger Stynelrez and the combat debut of my new Iwata RG3 spray gun. I'm a great fan of Paul Budzik (whose modeling videos are the best made on YouTube) who is one of the best modelers on the planet. (You'd need a fat wallet to follow all of his ideas, but they're neat to look at. His website is even more detailed and well worth a look for it's essays on things like tools, paints etc. Budzik knows a lot and brings much of his scratch building experience with him.) Anyway, Budzik is a great fan of spray guns for priming and base coats - places where you want a large and consistant surface. He argues that an airbrush with its smaller spray diameter is going to go over the same spot several times and cause overspray - something greatly decreased with the large spray pattern coming from a spray gun. (Ideally you might want a "fan cap" gun, but they're costly and need a very powerful compressor. The Iwata RG3 has a round pattern.) 

Using the RG3 requires that you break some rules. If Badger wants you to apply Stynelrez gradually in light coats, it won't happen with an RG3. I gave most of the surface two coats - the first one almost covered the surface - the second one went down wet. The results, however, are great. Much of this may be due to the primer. The Badger stuff is the best acrylic primer I've ever used. It levelled beautifully, and even if it appeared that too much paint was going on the plastic, it dried perfectly with all details intact and every blemish annihilated. (Note the rear of the turret - Tamiya has this turret assembled in halves and the rear of the turret had a really nasty seam. I used hard molding paste on it, but still worried there might be some irregularity. It looks great after priming as does everything else.)

I'm not saying everyone needs a RG3, but it's one of the few spray guns that accepts a standard quick-connect adapter and functions fine on a normal compressor and goes for $150 including a huge adjustable cup. I'm not sure how much I'll use it. My usual paints are Golden High Flow and they shoot out of a .20 or .35 nozzle on my Evolution or Iwata Eclipse very nicely. Not sure how they'll handle the .66 nozzle of the RG3. But we'll see. I'll certainly use it for priming tanks and ships. For airplanes, the Duplicolor Sandable Lacquer primer would be very hard to beat. (Indeed, it would have done the tank as well as Stynelrez - I also have to use it outside because of the really mean fumes.) But Budzik argues a small spray gun is more valuable than a fine detail airbrush - he may be right. We'll see.

Next up is heavy duty paint making. I need a nice Panzergrau. I've got it in Vallejo Model Air - I even have a PG colored Vallejo primer that would work well. But paint mixing is fun. So I'll whip up a chromatic black with a blue hue - the kind of thing High Flow is perfect for - and cut it with just a bit of white. As I understand it, real Panzergrau is very dark - almost like a Paynes' Gray. Of course after whitewash, a bucket of pgiments and major damage the fine points of perfect paint will not be very visible.

Eric

primed by Eric Bergerud, on Flickr

You've built up the tank really well, Eric, and it's looking great.  I'm sure you'll get everything else in hand as well.  It's going to be fascinating watching everything you've planned come together.

Outstanding work, Jack.  She looks exceptional!

Thank you Steve, Stik, Bish, and thanks lewbud for the extra info on Russian surnames.  So possibly an example here of a double surname, not common but does happen.

------------------

Eric, should be  a fully interesting build from your bench.  Any plans to upgrade the Pz IV with a turret bin and extra armour?

regards,
Jack

Thanks lewbud.

Coming alng nicely there Eric.

Jack, that is some real amazing modelling.

Jack,

Stepanov and Danilov are Russian surnames.  The Russian language uses both a masculine and feminine gender for surnames. Stepanov would be the masculine, Stepanova would be the feminine.  Sorry I can't help you further.

Bish and Stik, outstanding work!

The basic construction on the Tamiya PzIVD is done. It is a Tamiya kit and the fit is quite good. However, the company now makes far better instructions than previously. The instructions had no solid guide for how many of the parts were to fit or the components created. Good view of side, front and rear, but forget it if something is being done that can't be seen - like from above. You have arrows pointing to the destination of the parts, but not always any solid guide of how it's to look when attached. Fortunately for yours truly a good Turkish modeler had a photobuild of the kit on YouTube - it was extremely valuable. Might add that new Tamiya kits have splendid instructions - best that I know of.

It looks a little rough right now, but I think the primer is going to leave the kit ready to go. But ready to go where? I want the tank knocked out - not abandoned. I want to combine rust colors, black soot and dust. I also want to do some proper physical damage. But I don't want the kit in pieces. I've got lots of guides but some artistic license will be needed. See....I don't really know how to do any of this stuff. And to make things interesting, I want this to be winter - the Wehrmacht didn't build a boatload of D models, but I'm sure there were scores of them spread across Russia in a bad way say in February 1942 when the Germans were fighting for dear life. (The post-Moscow campaign may be the least known of the vital battles in the East. One can almost sympathize with Stalin for pushing things much too hard - there was a whiff of panic found in the minds of many Wehrmacht bigwigs in late December 41: thoughts of Napoleon, no joke. Unfortunately, many kept their heads - including Hitler. The initial preparation for the Stalingrad offensive was underway in late February.) In my case this is going to include the use of Precision Snow products. If you've never seen this stuff, you should check one of their really neat YouTube videos. It's not cheap, but it has a crystaline quality that I've never seen anywhere else in the modeling world. And as a Minnesotan in exile I can testify that's exactly what you see right after a fresh snow - I need dark glasses when driving in such conditions more than in the summer. But as I found out in 2015 when doing to the 1945 GB, the very quality that makes Precision products so unique also makes it really hard to photograph.  Hope this isn't overload.

Eric

unprimed by Eric Bergerud, on Flickr