ARMOR - Pz IV Group Build

Thanks for the pics petbat, they are great!

rebelreenactor, you are added, sorry about that. The battle of France would have had early versions of the Pz IV D, without the extra armor. Not sure if that helps, but i hope so.

Aaronw, if you are on a budget, look for a Dragon Pz IV, or an Italeri Pz IV. I just received the Italeri Pz IV F1/F2 in the mail and it really looks like a good kit.

I could come up with a badge unless someone else wants to do it. Let me know…

QUOTE: Originally posted by edog Thanks for the pics petbat, they are great! Aaronw, if you are on a budget, look for a Dragon Pz IV, or an Italeri Pz IV. I just received the Italeri Pz IV F1/F2 in the mail and it really looks like a good kit.

Not on a budget its just $18 vs $40 is tempting but I was wondering if the price ranges might be old molds vs new. If I'm going to take the time to build the thing I want it to be nice (at least until I get a hold of it). I was also looking at some Dragon and Tamiya kits, probably will get one of those.

Thanks

Ok, here are some quick ideas I had for a badge. They are all quite similar, but I really wanted to work in the silhouette of the tank. Let me know which one you guys like and any suggestions you might have for changes. Also, if you dont like them, dont be afraid to be crule.

1)

2)

3)

I like #2 the best, #1 and 3 are kind of distracting and take a bit to figure out, while #2 is clearly a Pz4 silhouette in front of Pz IV.

LOOK AT THIS!!! this is why people think of Italeri kits as substandard... So, i reported how good the hull looked in an earlier post and it really does, but when I started to put the thing together, this is what I found!!!



each one of those circles are ejector pin marks. However, there is not one ejector pin mark on the back, where you would hope they would put them. I dont know what to do with this. I have already checked the Tamiya, Dragon, and Tiger Model kits to see if any of those rear ends fit and they dont.

Note: the rest of the kit seems to be great though. LOL!!

Its gonna take quite awhile to get rid of all those! dang, that sucks! BTW, I like # 2 the best, then 3, then 1. On #2, It is kinda hard to see the PzIV on the edges. Think you could outline it or something?

And after getting some mixed results, heres what my D will be..... Late version, Balkans Front, Panzer gray hatches. THanks for the help guys, I realy, really appreciate it.

QUOTE: Originally posted by edog Ok, here are some quick ideas I had for a badge. They are all quite similar, but I really wanted to work in the silhouette of the tank. Let me know which one you guys like and any suggestions you might have for changes. Also, if you dont like them, dont be afraid to be crule. 1) 2) 3)

I like number 2 the best then 3.
Ive started the Panzer 1V Wirblewinds quad AA guns today,they went together really well
I'll A/B them tonight and take a photo or two.

EDOG, I feel you... I found the same thing on my H.... The fit of my kit is awful..OH how I yern for Dragon or Tamiya.... Does this HAVE to be a Pz IV proper...no variants??? Cause I have a Tamiya Mobelwagen thats about 30% done just screaming to kick that Italeri piece of crap off the bench and take its place in this GB....

I really don't have the patience or the inclination to deal with the Italeri kit. And I don't mean to whine but if I am gonna take the time to build this then I don't want to have something I don't like in the end.... What would be the point..

Look at it as a challenge guys. THink of when its finished, you'll be able to look back and be proud that you overcame this design flaw and still had a great build.

The ejector pin marks can be scraped and feathered into some areas and filled with putty on others. Not a tough fix. Frustrating, time consuming, but easily done.

It's what separates the model builders from the die cast collectors.

I like design #2. Its simple, easy to read, the silhouette stands out from the back ground and it reads well.

Yeah yeah yeahhh The heck with it... I got my Zim set in today so I am gonna stay with it...

Thanks Mike...!

Look What I Found!!!!!!!!!!




Its the same, exact vehiclethat I am building. I have never found something like this before, feels cool.

Edog is that the the rear end of Italeri F1/F2, because that's the kit I've got coming. What I can't fill or sand I'll cover with mud.

I like number 2 it's eazier to read then 1 & 3. It's got clean lines.

Rebel I seem to remember that pic being in the Squadron book. The 11th Panzer, which that tank belongs to, is my reenacting unit which I do believe I told you once before.

I vote for #2 as well. Clear and easy to read.

I agree with Mike on the challenge aspect of it. The more you fix it so you cant see the problem areas but yet keep it looking like the real thing well to me thats the thrill of victory in model building as far as I am concerned. Sorry just my 2 cents as well.

Kennethc, the fit is not too bad on my kit, but it did take me some time to get it right. I think I am going to do a Russian tank, with LOTS and LOTS of mud, LOL!! That should fix the ejection pin marks on the back.

RAF, it IS the Italeri F1/F2.

Well, here is my Italeri Pz IV F1 so far.

I am experimenting with a new way to add weld lines. I glued styrene strip to the hull. Once it was set, I went over it with Tamiya cement to soften it and scared it with the dull end of a hobby knife. I thought it would save me time from my usual masking tape/putty method, but it works out about the same.

I also added missing detail to the gun mantel. Here is a close up of the mantel. I eyeballed it, so the dimensions are far from perfect and it is a little off center, but it will have to do. For anyone else doing this kit (the Italeri f1/f2) this is an easy fix or you might want to pick up a replacement.


Overall, I am really enjoying this kit. As usual with Italeri, the kit has moments of pure delight and moments of pure frustration. If you can get over the ejection marks on the rear hull, I would HIGHLY recommend this kit.


As far as the badge… well, I shrunk everything to make room for a one pixel boarder. Hope it suffices. Let me know if you guys think my efforts are worthy of being the group badge and feel free to criticize, or make suggestions.

I'm underway with my Academy Panzer IV H/J Biuld.

I've run into a bit of a seam. This is only my 2nd model I have done and have not come across this yet.

As this is the place where we are all roughly doing the same build, I was wondering if someone could please point me in the right direction on how I can fix this.

Is simply filling it with putty enough or do I need to do something more?

As much advice is appreciated.



Cheers,
Gabe

Edog,

I forgot to mention I like the Group Build Icon.

Have you thought about using the gradient effect on the tank going from left to right? You used it on one of the other icons and thought it was very effective.

Cheers,
Gabe

Gabe,
The cleanest fix would be to take a sheet of styrene as thick as the widest point of your gap. Scrape it to fit into the tapered gap. Add the adhesive and insert the "shim" into the gap and when its dry, trim it flush with the deck. You can scribe in a panel line.

You could use putty by running some tape on either side fo the gap. Apply the putty and make it a little proud of the surface. Remove the tape as its there just to make a crsip edge, and then sand the putty flulsh. THe reason you want to make it a little proud is that some puttys contract as they dry and this makes sure you won't get a trough that you have to add more putty later.

For me, the shim method is the best.

ok, one gradient effect for the tank coming up:


here it is without the gradient to compare:


gkicsak, I too would probably use a shim to fill the gap

edog,

I like the weld seams. Nicely done. One question/comment. Why did you put a weld seam where the recoil mechanism sleeve meets the mantelet plate? All my documentation shows this as having no weld.

I also like the screws you've put into the sleeve along the top edge. Much better than the holes molded into the piece.

I like the badge with no gradient in the tank silhouette.

Renarts,

Thanks for the advice. I'll try the shim method.

Edog,

The gradient effect looks fantastic. It's won my vote.

Cheers,
Gabe

Mike,,, I got the Pics today on the way back from N.Y. Got about 8 good ones I think,, wont know for sure tilll put them on the computer. Man has Aberdeen gotten rid of some stuff since the last time I was there. The Panzer II is gone among other rare ones and a couple have really deteriorated. I hope they are doing some kind of fund drive to get funds to help the mueseum. I read a sign near the bldg itself and they said they were waiting to get more funds to do it but I will find out for sure the next time I go there on a day when the bldg is open. Anyhow will get those emailed to you this evening.

Thanks Rich,

I look forward to it with eager anticipation. Shame about Aberdeen. Some folks just don't know what they got till it's gone. Scrap all the tanks and put up a parking lot. Oooooo la la la la

I know many are trophies, but some were actually scrapped in the 50's for the metal value. Today, I fear its only us modelers that have any interest in this. Its a shame that these icons of conflict and things that represented the pinnacle of applied technology are so cheaply thought of and have no place in historical archives. I guess we don't have the right senators or lobbyists suckling the right teet of the golden cow.

When you find out just what has been destroyed in the name of progress or making room, you could cry for years. I know it takes a lot of funds to preserve these vehicles properly, but these are things that are just impossible to replace. How much money is thrown about to save the 'upper mongolian racing slug' and the 'insectis noonehaseverheardofis' , yet no-one wants to spend money on preserving hard visible history. The forth of July celebrates the US victory in battle and their gaining of independance, ANZAC day in Australia commerates the Aussie and New Zealanders who died at Gallipolli during WW1, etc. We talk about national pride, but where does all that talk go?

Anyway. Looking good Eric. I use that method of making weld seams. I find it gives me a more uniform bead than putty. 21 knock out marks one one piece. Man that has to be a record, one that I hope no-one tries to beat.

I find that by using a little bead of milliput or putty, I can smooth it out with a bit of square profile styrene or a piece of card that has been dipped in water. This smoothing out helps minimise the sanding later. A Sanding stick or piece of emery paper stuck to the end of the squrae rod works great for those narrow hard to get to areas.

Then again, mud always looks good too.

Gabe, shim and sand - only way to go. Make sure the glue is good and dry before you touch it, and use a sharp blade to trim it down to the hull. Hate to say this, but you are going to come across a few more gaps before you are finished.

Renarts, about the mantel… looking at the Trojca book on the Pz F1/F2/G, all the diagrams show a weld seam where the gun meets the mantel plate there. Trojca’s diagrams have let me down in the past so I double checked in the Auchtung Pz book. I didn’t realize at the time, but I was accidentally looking at the Pz IV E turret in Auchtung Pz No3 which also shows a weld seam at the same place. Interestingly enough Auchtung Pz does not show a weld seam there for the Pz IV F1 turret. After you pointed it out, I did some searching for photos of F1 mantels and was not able to make a conclusive decision either way. So, I don’t know for sure, but the weld seam is going to stay there now.

Petbat, I honestly think I like the putty method of weld seams better because I don’t have to put up with the fumes from the Tamiya cement. Just a personal preference… I was thinking of trying to roll out milliput for weld seams and scour it with a hobby knife. It might not stick too well, but that is nothing that a little extra thin CA couldn’t fix once the milliput is dry, right?

All, as far as my progress, well I should be ready to paint by tomorrow. We will see how many more errors I feel like fixing, but tomorrow sounds about right. As this build has progressed, I have seen how many flaws this kit really has. The lower hull is excellent and I love how they molded the dampers, but that is about all the good news I can come up with. Hmmmmm, where to start with the bad? This is the “short” list of problems that I have come up with if you are trying to make an accurate F1 out of the Italeri F1/F2 kit. No, I have not fixed all of them, but most.

• The left side turret vision port needs to have the slit filled and bolts need to be added to the ports on both sides of the turret.


• There should be regular headlights, and not the Bosch ones that the kit includes.


• Lots of weld seams need to be added.


• Lots of missing bolts need to be added.


• There is a folding step down ladder not included in the kit that should be located on the left fender and a little rear of the turret.


• The front tow hitches should be replaced because they are quite inaccurate.


• The instructions say to place a handle on the top deck, to the right side of the turret that should not be there, but that is ok because this handle can be used to replace the missing one on the engine deck.


• The kit is missing the smoke candle box that was located on the rear of the tank.


• There is a missing tail light on the right rear fender


• There is a missing reflector on the left rear fender


• The kit is missing the horn.


• The instructions show the extra fender support on the right front fender for both models when it should just be for the F2 and NOT the F1.


• If you are building the F1, you will need to cut off two of the extensions for the gun cleaning rod.


• There is no cap for the cooling water drain that is located under the muffler


• There are 3 spare track links attached with brackets that should be located on the right fender that are not included in the kit for the F1


• The ball mount for the radio operators MG does not have a peep hole.


• The axe and the track hook (?) need to switch places from what is shown on the instructions.

If anyone has anything to add to the list, please let me know. Also note that this is a list of missing or incorrect elements and does not account for poorly molded detail. Surprisingly, the Tamiya On-Vehicle Equipment set fixes a lot of problems. Despite the problems that this kit has, I have enjoyed the build, but at the same time I have decided that it is not worth investing much more effort in.

Boy did you guys hit it on the spot. I was in Atlanta visiting my cousin a couple a years ago, and as we were drive=ing through a nieghborhood i saw a big sign in someby's yard that read in big letters, "The Battle of Atlanta Was Fought Here." Peoples hoses on top of a battlefield, History being thrown away. Its Fubar.

My D is going to get a coat of German gray, tommorow.

QUOTE: Originally posted by gkicsak I'm underway with my Academy Panzer IV H/J Biuld. I've run into a bit of a seam. This is only my 2nd model I have done and have not come across this yet. As this is the place where we are all roughly doing the same build, I was wondering if someone could please point me in the right direction on how I can fix this. Is simply filling it with putty enough or do I need to do something more? As much advice is appreciated. Cheers, Gabe

Gkicsak i'm also doing the Acadamy Panzer 1V and it's also my 2nd AFV,i normally build 1/48 aircraft,anyway i had exactly the same gap which i filled with putty and sanded smooth. J.S

Here she is, ready for paint. You can see most of the changes that I made in these two photos. One last addition that I have made since taking these pictures was including a bracket mount for the tail light on the rear of the right fender. I didn’t make the step down ladder for the left fender because it will be covered with stowage anyway and I didn’t feel like fiddling with the missing reflector either.

Looks pretty darn nice, edog. You zipped through the build-up pretty quickly. Can't wait to see her with some color...

QUOTE: Originally posted by edog The side turret vision ports need to have the slits filled and bolts need to be added. There should be regular headlights, and not the Bosch ones that the kit includes. Lots of weld seams need to be added. Lots of missing bolts need to be added. There is a folding step down ladder not included in the kit that should be located on the left fender and a little rear of the turret. The front tow hitches should be replaced because they are quite inaccurate. The instructions say to place a handle on the top deck, to the right side of the turret that should not be there, but that is ok because this handle can be used to replace the missing one on the engine deck. The kit is missing the smoke candle box that was located on the rear of the tank. There is a missing tail light on the right rear fender There is a missing reflector on the left rear fender The kit is missing the horn. The instructions show the extra fender support on the right front fender for both models when it should just be for the F2 and NOT the F1. If you are building the F1, you will need to cut off two of the extensions for the gun cleaning rod. There is no cap for the cooling water drain that is located under the muffler There are 3 spare track links attached with brackets that should be located on the right fender that are not included in the kit for the F1 The ball mount for the radio operators MG does not have a peep hole. The axe and the track hook (?) need to switch places from what is shown on the instructions.

I'll be getting back to you on all of these.
Are you using any PE and would they have the ladder?
I already have Tamiya's On-vechical equipment set, I think I have most of it left. So I should be good to go.

Thanks Foster, the Italeri kit was actually rather easy to put together.

Trevor,

I did not use any PE on my Italeri Pz, but Aber does make a detail set for the Italeri F1/F2 kit. I have it and plan on using it for my Tamiya/TMD F1.

The Aber PE does include a ladder. Other noticeable parts are the smoke candle box, the rear reflector, the tail light, the spare track brackets for the right fender, and the correct mounts for the headlights. The Aber set includes the usual assortment of clamps, hinges and clasps for all the tools as well. I just noticed that the set also includes most of the replacement parts you will need when you try to remove the 21 ejector pin marks from the back of the hull. Honestly though, unless you plan on super detailing the Italeri Pz IV F1/F2 kit I would at least try to make the ladder before I invested in the Aber PE.

I just checked the Eduard site and apparently they do not make a set for the Italeri Pz IV F1/F2, but if you have to use Eduard, the set for the Tamiya Pz IV D looked like it has some useful pieces

I ended up not fabricating the ladder or the track brackets because I plan on putting storage on the fenders to cover them anyway. I have also found at least a couple of photos where the crew apparently removed the ladder to make room for road wheels or jerry cans. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help and good luck.