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Battle of the Atlantic Feb. 1 to Aug 1, 2006

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  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Bicester, England
Posted by KJ200 on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 2:03 AM

Dave I look forward to seeing your progress. I've always liked the Sunderland, but could never bring myself to build the Airfix kit!

Karl

EDIT: Forgot the bold!

 

Currently on the bench: AZ Models 1/72 Mig 17PF

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posted by superbear on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:38 PM

Dave Would you sign me up I'll be doing a 1/72 Lancaster.

 

Cheers

Bear

Marc
  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Vernon, BC, Canada
Posted by razordws on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:21 PM
It would be a pleasure Bear. For those of you wondering what a Lancaster has to do with the Battle for the Atlantic we had a discussion in the Canadian GB regarding the use of Bombers in the "Gardening" role. The bombers were often used to lay mines in the harbours and sea lanes of Axis controlled waters. As such I felt it met the criteria for this build. Besides that I have the same kit lined up in my stash for the middle of next year and I want to let Bear discover all the pitfalls first. Wink [;)]

Dave

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Bicester, England
Posted by KJ200 on Thursday, December 1, 2005 2:51 AM

Dave there are a whole load of Bomber Command aircraft that would be most suitable for this GB.

Be nice to see something a little off beat like a Hampden or a Whitley.

Karl

 

Currently on the bench: AZ Models 1/72 Mig 17PF

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posted by superbear on Thursday, December 1, 2005 8:04 AM

Thanks Dave.  It will be my pleasure to discoverall the pitfalls of that kit for you, better than dealing with the Airfix Halifax.

 

Would any of you knowledgeable folks know where I could get some info/pics of the mines droped by the RAF in support on naval operations. Thanks

 

Cheers

Bear

 

 

Marc
  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Vernon, BC, Canada
Posted by razordws on Thursday, December 1, 2005 10:42 AM
 KJ200 wrote:

Dave there are a whole load of Bomber Command aircraft that would be most suitable for this GB.

Be nice to see something a little off beat like a Hampden or a Whitley.

Karl

I agree, many of the older bombers were taken off the front lines and if they weren't used for training they were often used for ocean patrols. 

Dave

  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Salisbury Massachucetts USA
Posted by PanzerWulff on Thursday, December 1, 2005 4:44 PM
actually was it not the lancasters of 617 Squadron the ones which took out the TIRPITZ if so wouldn't they count for the battle of the atlantic slinging a grand slam or tallboy under their belly?
ACE??? you were NEVER an ace AN ace HOLE maybe! (Lister to Rimmer on BBC's RED DWARF) Chris"Hey GRAVITY still works"Gray
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Bicester, England
Posted by KJ200 on Friday, December 2, 2005 2:12 AM

 PanzerWulff wrote:
actually was it not the lancasters of 617 Squadron the ones which took out the TIRPITZ if so wouldn't they count for the battle of the atlantic slinging a grand slam or tallboy under their belly?

Not to forget the air sea rescue Lancs with a life boat under the belly, or any of the countless other aircraft involved in the air sea rescue role. Accurate Miniatures new Walrus would be an ideal candidate.

I think this one of the keys point from the Battle of the Atlantic, the sheer number of different ships and aircraft involved on both sides.

Karl

 

Currently on the bench: AZ Models 1/72 Mig 17PF

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 3, 2005 3:22 AM
 KJ200 wrote:

Dave I look forward to seeing your progress. I've always liked the Sunderland, but could never bring myself to build the Airfix kit!

Karl

EDIT: Forgot the bold!

 

Yeah i'm starting to understand the attraction to the Sunderland, the aircrews certainly loved the A/C....The book i'm reading which is a great read called Conflict over the Bay by Norman Franks ISBN no1-902304-09-8....It deals with coastal command actions during the timeframe of May- August 1943 which is the time that Donitz ordered his boats to stay up and fight and is full of first hand accounts of the actions of individual crews including engagments by JU 88's....Sunderlands and many other types were attacked by as many as 8 JU 88's at once and not only did many survive they also took a heavy toll on the 88's with reports of mulitple Ju 88's shot down by airgunners and returning home with bullet holes numbering in the hundreds......

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Bicester, England
Posted by KJ200 on Saturday, December 3, 2005 3:51 AM
Jules I was looking at U-boat.net the other day and found this page on aircraft losses against U-boats

http://uboat.net/history/aircraft_losses.htm

The Sunderlands don't appear to figure as heavily in the number of losses , despite the fact you'd think their huge size and relatively low speed would make them an easy target.

Karl



Currently on the bench: AZ Models 1/72 Mig 17PF

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: North East Texas
Posted by roadkill_275 on Saturday, December 3, 2005 10:55 AM
Okay I picked up my kit last week. List me for a Tamiya F4F-4 flying off of the USS Santee.
Kevin M. Bodkins "Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup" American By Birth, Southern By the Grace of God! www.milavia.com Christian Modelers For McCain
  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Vernon, BC, Canada
Posted by razordws on Sunday, December 4, 2005 11:44 PM
Kevin, great choice. I'll update the front page as soon as I get a chance.

Karl, I picked up the Sunderland kit after reading a book called "Canadian Squadrons in Coastal Command" The Canadians operated two squadrons with the Sunderland so I decided to build it for the Canadian GB. They were big targets but by no means were they easy to bring down. Their rugged construction and ample defensive armament made taking them on a daunting task.

Dave

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by darson on Monday, December 5, 2005 4:31 AM

Dave I suppose the added ability of the Sunderland to put down in the water if required as compared to some their land based counterparts also helped out with survival.
I have often heard Australian pilots (military and non-military) going on about what a wonderful aircraft the Sunderland was to fly.  I don't think there is any doubt they were well liked by their crews.

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Bicester, England
Posted by KJ200 on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:04 AM

Bump!

Time to get back on the front page.

Karl

 

Currently on the bench: AZ Models 1/72 Mig 17PF

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Switzerland
Posted by Imperator-Rex on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:12 AM
Nice
  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Vernon, BC, Canada
Posted by razordws on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:20 PM
I'm currently reading a book on the Canadians involvement in escort duty with the convoys.  A very sad tale.  will post more on it from home when I get a chance.  Thanks for the bump Karl!  Thumbs Up [tup]

Dave

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: SETX. USA
Posted by tho9900 on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:35 PM
I would love to hear about it Dave ... you hear so much of the US, Britain, German and Soviet parts in the action... but never the Commonwealth or corresponding european/eastern european part in the war.  (Czech, Finnish etc...) The only real stories you hear about are the Czech pilots in the BoB... I've done a little reading which included some about the Canadian involvement in D-Day but haven't seen much more about our brothers to the north.
---Tom--- O' brave new world, That has such people in it!
  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Vernon, BC, Canada
Posted by razordws on Thursday, December 15, 2005 12:07 AM
Okay, so here's the story as I understand it so far. Prior to the outbreak of the war the Canadian Navy consisted of 7 destroyers and few minesweepers. Not much of a force considering the size of Canada's coastline. The RCN (Royal Canadian Navy) given its limited resources was intended to protect its home coastal waters only. With this in mind and with an eye to boast Canadian industry it was decided to pursue the Corvette design to first replace a rag tag assortment of ships that were patrolling the home waters and secondly to barter them with Britain in exchange for more destroyers.

Well, things do not always go as planned now do they. The government ordered 54 in the initial order followed closely by another ten to act as replacements. Of these only 24 to 34 were intended for the RCN. The rest were to be bartered. But then the barter system fell through and Canada was left holding the bag with all 64 corvettes on order. Double what it had intended. The British then dedided it would order 10 of the ships to be commissioned into the RN so this alleviated the problem a little or so the RCN thought.

So all of a sudden it has to start a training program for double the amount of staff that it originally projected in facilities that were already inadequate for the original projections. But wait... it gets better. The USN donates 40 of its old and obsolete Town class destroyers to the British who knowing Canada needs destroyers asks Canada to Man 6 of these detroyers. Not what Canada had in mind (it was trying to buy some Tribals) but more importantly where the heck was it going to get the manpower from. You guessed it. The men intended for the corvettes ended up on those ships. So... it now has 6 more destroyers plus 20 more corvettes on the way than it had planned for. But guess what it gets even better. The 10 corvettes intended for Britain are completed and manned with skeleton crews for taking overseas and when they arrive the RN requests that the Canadians continue to man the crews as they are absorbed into the RN. Now this is completely understandable given the tight spot Britain was in but now the RCN is down another 10 crews.

Given this hugely rapid expansion, the lack of equipment - even the very basic navigational equipment was lacking in the early RCN corvettes, after all they were intended for home coastal waters. The lack of training for new corvettes. Much bungling by RCN officers - Everytime a corvette returned to Halifax for repairs its crew was raided of experienced personnel to man the newest corvettes. Some returned with less than 20% of its original crew. Therefore, a crew never had a chance to train and learn to work as a team. Add to that a lack of suitable ports, a schedule that did not leave any down time due to the lack of ships in the early going, ships that were constantly wet because they were not designed for the open ocean and rolled like a bucking bronco, etc. etc.

Is it small wonder then that in first years of the war the corvettes had little success in turning away the U-boats? As one RN officer stated "The Canadian corvettes are only good for picking up survivors."

Anyway, sorry to ramble on but this is all new to me.

Dave

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Bicester, England
Posted by KJ200 on Thursday, December 15, 2005 6:52 AM

Dave, I think people often forget that while countries like Canada and Australia are large from a land mass perspective, they in fact only posses relatively small populations when compared to the US, and even the UK. Therefore the impact of trying to support a war effort, especially one taking place thousands of miles away constituted a major drain on resources.

ANZAC forces faced similar difficulties in North Africa, particularly once the Japanese threat to South East Asia became apparent, with the Austalian and New Zealand goverments petitioning Churchill for the return of Moorshead's and Freiburg's troops to their mother countries.

I agree, it's an element of WWII history that is unfortunately often over looked.

Karl

 

 

 

Currently on the bench: AZ Models 1/72 Mig 17PF

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: 288921 E, 5659868 N UTMz12, NAD83
Posted by jboutin on Thursday, December 15, 2005 9:19 AM
Good history lesson Dave, I love learning about Canada's involvement in the wars.
JAY - fighting evil since 2:15pm, July 8,1976 -
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posted by superbear on Thursday, December 15, 2005 9:21 AM

Dave That book sounds real interesting could you give me the title, author etc.. I'd like to pick it up I'm due for some reading time infront of the fire. 

 

Cheers

Bear

Marc
  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Vernon, BC, Canada
Posted by razordws on Thursday, December 15, 2005 2:35 PM

Bear:  The book is called the North Atlantic Run, here is a web page with the title and author that I just found.  There are many other titles listed on this site that also look very interesting.  I got the copy I'm reading form the local library.

http://www.cbrnp.com/RNP/Flower/BOOKS/North_Atlantic_Run.htm

Also on this website is a collection of gunshield graffiti.  Something I will have to keep in mind if I ever get around to building that 1/72 scale Revell kit.

http://www.cbrnp.com/RNP/Flower/PROFILE/Gunshields.htm

Karl:  Canada's commitment to WWII was HUGE when you condsider its efforts in all aspects of the navy, airforce and the army.  One of the problems the navy had was the airforce got out of the gates first and was scooping up all the best recruits at first leaving them with recruits who had very few technical skills.

Dave

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posted by superbear on Friday, December 16, 2005 7:08 AM

Dave Thanks for the links I quite enjoy reading up on Canadian Military history.  Your right there are quite a few interesting books on that site. 

 

Cheers

Bear

Marc
  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Salisbury Massachucetts USA
Posted by PanzerWulff on Sunday, December 18, 2005 7:04 AM
well i have given up on finding a 1/48 cat so i will be using the 1/72 scale one im just going to look for some detail sets the interior is pretty basic so i want to spruce it up esp in the gunners blisters
ACE??? you were NEVER an ace AN ace HOLE maybe! (Lister to Rimmer on BBC's RED DWARF) Chris"Hey GRAVITY still works"Gray
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 18, 2005 7:44 AM

Yeah Dave i've heard of the the problems the RCN suffered in the early stages of the war when it came to escorting convoys with undermanned and inexperienced crews and IMO they were overly critised because when the RCN navy found it's feet so to speak it performed an invaluable service......

 

The Royal Navy also suffered at this time mainly by mismanagement and shortage of escorts......

When i say mismanagement i'm refering to the Admiralty sending Escorts on fruitless searches for a U-Boat that was sighted 2 hours previous and in doing so they left the convoy with huge holes in it's defence.....

It wasn't until Sir Admiral Percy Noble set sail in a destroyer during FEB 1941 or 42 (can't recall exactly and i can't be buggered getting up to get the book but i think 1941) To see for himself what was happening out there, the escorts were duly sent out to hunt for phantom U-boats from ashore until the destroyer that Noble was on was the only one left to protect the entire convoy. Anyhow when he returned he vowed to end the nonsence, a promise that he kept much to the thanks of the escort commanders and merchant sailers...

He also instigated the formation of escort groups commanded by an Escort group commander such as Donald Mc Kintyre who's escort group took out U-99 and U-100 in the same night...The Escort groups put an end to the convoy escort being thrown together useing whatever ships were available and enabled them to operate as a highly skilled team.....

Many a life and ship was saved by the foresight of Admiral Percy Noble and his gifted staff members who worked day and night to turn the escorts from ships to pick up survivors into ships that became a deathtrap for attacking U-Boats.....

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Vernon, BC, Canada
Posted by razordws on Monday, December 26, 2005 10:37 PM
BUMP

Dave

  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Salisbury Massachucetts USA
Posted by PanzerWulff on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 1:25 AM

im having a hard time finding markings for a coastal command catalina anyone have any suggestions?

any help is greatly appreciated

ACE??? you were NEVER an ace AN ace HOLE maybe! (Lister to Rimmer on BBC's RED DWARF) Chris"Hey GRAVITY still works"Gray
  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Alice Springs Australia
Posted by tweety1 on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 6:06 AM

I can't understand how countries like Australia, Canada etc can be for the most part 'overlooked' for their contribution in WWII let alone any other conflictsConfused [%-)]

 

If you look at it from a 'per capita' point of view, they sent a bucket load of assitance with what minimal resources they had at their disposal, and yet you always hear about the galant efforts or the amount of resources used by UK, US and Germany.

 

 

--Sean-- If you are driving at the speed of light and you turn on the headlights, what happens???
  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Vernon, BC, Canada
Posted by razordws on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 6:45 PM
Chris, I did find one from Mini Print Decals on Squadron's site. You are doing yours in 1/72 right?

Here is the page, sorry I can't make the link from my home computer so you'll have to copy/paste it into your URL bar.

http://www.squadron.com/ItemDetails.asp?item=KPI72524

Hope its helpful, otherwise you could try some generic sheets for roundels and RAF codes to get what you need.

Sean, spoken like a true Commonwealther! But very true!

Dave

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Bicester, England
Posted by KJ200 on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 7:17 AM
 razordws wrote:
......, spoken like a true Commonwealther! But very true!


I think that, that is part of the problem. The commitment of countries such as Canada, Australia and NZ, to name but a few, gets lost under the heading of 'Commonwealth', and is therefore perceived as part of the UK effort.

One fact I didn't realise about Canada's war effort was that is was hampered by the fact that some 70,000 French Canadian servicemen refused to be shipped overseas, and thus into combat, as they saw the war as Britain's problem. I think this just serves to highlight the sacrifice of those Canadians who did see combat.

Karl

Currently on the bench: AZ Models 1/72 Mig 17PF

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