Model Shipways "Sultana" Group Build 2006

Bruce,
that sounds fine to me. Thanks for your input. Whatever things that we can come up with to help is good.

Donnie

I've taken a look at the instruction manual MS currently includes in the kit. (It can be downloaded in PDF format from the Model Expo website.  Good bedside reading for anybody waiting for the kit to arrive.)  It looks pretty good to me.  With the additional information that appears on the plans (which aren't downloadable), they should be more than sufficient to point a newcomer in the right direction.

CA adhesives (superglues) are wonderful things, but not for all purposes.  For the wood-to-wood joints on a model like this my strong preference is for either Titebond or Elmer's Carpenter's Glue.  (I think they're pretty much the same stuff.)  They're strong, dry in a reasonable amount of time, have a good, workable consistency, and can be sanded when dry (unlike traditional Elmer's "white glue").  They also work well when applied in amazingly small quantities - a vital attribute in model building.  For wood-to-wood joints you generally don't want an adhesive that dries instantly.  I know there are some modelers who use nothing but CA for wood ship modeling, but I can't see any pressing reason to take that approach. 

The first thing to do when tackling a model like this is to study all the plans and pictures you can get your hands on, and get a clear understanding in your head of how the finished model is supposed to look.  That's the first difference - and one of the biggest differences - between a wood kit and a plastic one:  the wood one allows considerably more potential for mistakes.  The pre-carved solid hull is a good start, but if you've never seen one you may be disappointed at how crude it looks.  It's a basic, slightly blobby chunk of wood that provides the basic shape of the hull.  That's it.  One of the first tasks of the modeler is to figure out, and mark, various points on it - especially the center line.  All sorts of other measurements will need to be taken from that line.  You'll also have to drill holes for the masts, bowprit, rudder post, and various other parts.  And for heaven's sake, figure out in the very beginning how you want to mount the finished model.  If it's going to sit on pedestals, drill the holes for them first.  No matter what mounting system you intend to use eventually, you need to fasten the hull down firmly (but removably) to something while you're working on it.  A piece of plywood, big enough in all dimensions to protect the hull from bumping into things on your workbench, works well.  Make this temporary base big enough that you can clamp it down to your bench with a couple of C-clamps. 

Beyond that, the instruction manual should be a pretty good guide.  One of the first things in it is a list of tools.  Take that seriously.  It's not a particularly daunting list, but it's best to have all the necessary tools on hand before you start. 

I have built a few of the old Scientific solid hull kits before I started making my own solid hull models from scratch, and if you want crude blocks of wood, then Scientific kits were the kits to have.  The old Seawitch kit must of had a hull made of oak it was so hard, but nonetheless, a good kit.
While venturing into solid hulls, half hulls, and scratchbuilding,  I had the luxury of having a neighbor who was a very good wood carver and he directed me on how important it is to have a good set of chisels and knives, and then how to use them.  You do two things, you shape, then you carve, and since these kits are pre-shaped, then the art of carving comes into play. The number one rule he said when carving was to relax, take your time, use light pressure, and take little amounts of wood off,  kinda like sanding, instead of digging into the wood and trying to shave off large chunks.  And always maintian sharp tools.

As you can see in the Sultana instructions, there will be a fair amount of detail carving, which what makes these models such an enjoyment because you will acually shape details instead of gluing togther a bunch a pre-molded parts.

I hope I can join you folks, but the summer looks pretty busy with current projects.  However, I have been wanting to try this kit for some time now and this GB might give me a reason to pursue this endeavor.

Scott

This is the new home of the Sultana Group Build. I asked Jeff to move the entire thread over here. I am not sure if everyone would want to post everything pictures and all to this thread or if everyone wants to post information about their Sultana in the SHIPS forum. I am in a quandry about this.
It seems logicial to use the Sultana Group Build (SGB) for everone to keep track of everybodies postings and progress and not to split away on tangent postings. But, then again this is just my ignorance speaking for a first time organizer.

Donnie

For those who are interested in the building guide that Chuck Passaro is doing for Sultana, it can now be downloaded here:

http://forum.drydockmodels.com/viewtopic.php?t=4258

I have only had a quick look but there seem to be lots of good ideas.

Bruce

thank you Bruce

Donnie

Prelimary roll call.
How many of you have gotten their kit and waiting ready to go?

I know that Greg and I (Donnie) have ours and I think some others already had one, but I wish to have a list setup for those that are ready.

Donnie

Hi Donnie,

OK, I hope I'm posting this correctly.  Please add me to the Sultana group build... looks like a perfect project to get up to speed in wood ship building.  Also, thank you for originating this group.

Seamac,
you are very welcome to the Sultana Group Build. Do you have your kit or do you need to order it.

Donnie

Yes, I've got one.  Sorry, I posted before I saw your message about taking the poll of modelers with the kit.

I have been following the start of this group build for a few days now and am excited to see the project gaining momentum.  I have been talking with Bruce about it via e-mail.  As he mentioned I am building the Sultana now and documenting my progress.  He has posted a link to the guide I created and additional 10 page chapters will follow regularly. 

Should anyone like to ask any questions about the challenges and solutions I faced please dont hesitate.  The technique used to plank the hull was a little experimental and the beauty of a solid hull model is that there are many many choices available.

I am sorry that my timing is a little off because I would have enjoyed building the model along with the group.  I also recently completed the kit for the Phantom of which Mr. Tilley's model of her was my inspiration.  That build was also documented and the the techniques used to carve the hull diferent from how I proceeded with the Sultana.  It is available on the same website posted by Bruce.

Its been fun and the kits do produce a great model.  Here is a link to what the model looks like currently.

http://cpassaro.home.mindspring.com/progress1.gif

 

 

Donnie,

Mine is ordered and has apparently been shipped but I don't have it yet.

Bruce

Pre June 10th Roll Call: A List of those that are building or thinking about it :


1. jgonzales
2. schoonerbumm
3. Donnie
4. BCS
5. cthulhu77
6. radguylvn
7. scottrc
8. grymm
9. Seamac

Contributor Consulting

1. ChuckP
2. jtilley

The door is always open for those that want to join. There is still plently of time to get involved and to order your kit and get settled in. For those that already have their Sultana in, if you want to see if all your parts are in the box and make sure everything is there. Now would be a good time to check your tools, paint scheme and other things of the sort so that when June 10th comes around everyone will be geared up ready to go !

Again, thanks everyboby so far for joining in.

Donnie

My kit arrived today so I will be ready to go on June 10th if that ends up being the start date.  I just have to make to the tough choice of whether to kit bash and plank or build it out of the box.  Life is great when those are the types of decisions you have to make.

Bruce

Bruce,
It seems like you and I are in the same boat (no pun intended). I too after thinking about it, first I wanted to stick with the plans, but now, I am thinking about other options. This will be fun to figure out !

Donnie
ps Bruce, did you order the paint kit ?

I won't be getting my kit until the middle of June.

I can't decide if I want to paint it, or just stain it.  I built a few solid hull models for a lady a number of years ago who didn't want ANY paint on them, just stain.  Talk about being carefull with glue joints.  But since then, I really have enjoyed the look of the natural wood on the model and have been hard pressed to paint them.

What kind of kitbash / modifications are you guys talking about?  Just doing planks, or is anyone thinking of altering the ship itself?

Scott

I am going to be altering the heck out of mine...but then, I always do.

    In regards to your stain/paint dilemma, you might want to try tints instead of paint.  There are a whole bunch of new tinted stains available for the woodworker, from yellow to blue, etc, and that way you can still see all of the graining and the "glow" of the natural wood.  Actually, that is such a good idea that I think that's how my ship is going to be finished!  Thanks!

   You can get these in "sample" bottles from local stores, probably enough for the whole ship:

http://www.woodburst.com/deck.html

 

                      greg (getting ready for another pirate ship)

scottrc wrote:

I won't be getting my kit until the middle of June.

 

Scott, I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as yours arriving later. This will not be a problem as far as I am conerned. I think the first week is going to go kinda slow with everyone pouring over facts, figures and what ifs.  Thanks for joining the build !

 

Donnie

It seems like that Greg is all fired up too along with everyone else. I am trying hard to finish my Wappen Von Hamburg. After 5 months of building on this ship, it is about ready. I am hoping seriously that I can post some finished pics at the end of May.

I thought I would try my best at informing everyone about the colors that I ordered as part of the package.  The Model Shipways part number is MS2016 which includes 9 bottles of paint. It is actually eight colors (the 9th bottle is an extra Primer - you have two bottles of Primer).

Ok, so I tried my hand using my paint program to duplicate those colors the best that I could. Now, the deal is that I know that everyone is going to have their Computer Monitor set up a slight different. But, at least we have some type of representation of what is going on here with the paint.

The paint is also 100% Acrylic Paint that comes 1 oz in a nice glass bottle. The bottles are rather larger than I would have thought. Handles nicely in the hands. Dilute with water.

So here goes the color scheme (please remember this is the best match I could get)



MS 4839 Primer




MS 4836 Bright Green Trim




MS 4830 Hull Spar Black




MS 4829 Hull Yellow Ochre




MS 4828 Iron Cannon Black




MS 4803 Hull Tallow




MS 4802 Bulwarks Red




MS 4831 White



Donnie

I've bought quite a few jars of Model Shipways paint, and I have to say I've had mixed reactions.  Some of them have worked fine.  Others - especially, for some reason, the blues - have given me trouble.  The pigment and vehicle didn't seem to mix correctly; the paint acted like a translucent syrup, and didn't really cover the surface satisfactorily.  On the other hand, I was really happy with the "aged white" color.  (I tend to avoid pure black and white on scale models.)  I also got good results with the yellow and brown hues.

I confess I get a little irritated at Model Expo's insistance on including multiple bottles of the same color in a paint set.  The truth is that one bottle of primer -or any other color - of that size would cover that entire model several times.

 

John:

I would suggest, for those that do not want to go with the Model Shipways paints, that the artist's acrylics from the local craft store will do nicely. They only cost a few pennies and they have an enormous array of colors. They are easy to use and one bottle lasts forever.

I also agree about the white and black colors. For the wales, a deep dark brown would be better looking. Minwax Jacobean stain would be a very close match for the wales and standing rigging. I used it on the shrouds for my cross section model and they looked pretty good, all things considered. An off white would be good for the Sultana's underbody. That stark white color in the box art just doesn't get it.

Just my two cents.

Russ

 

 

Thank you Russ,
I had some modelers that wanted to have some info on the Model Shipways paint set. I just did the best that I could to supply the info. Thanks for your information about the alternative. I will also look into this as well. Even though I have my paint set, I can still use the ideas !

Donnie

Greg, thanks for mentioning stains.  I use stains and oils a lot, even on plastic.  I like the look of a stain over a red oxide or white primer because it makes an irridescent finish.  Oils are nice for washes because they give the model some body and depth.   I feel that enamels and laquers are too heavy, and give an out of scale, almost toyish look to a wooden model.

I also us artist and craft acrylics, usually as bases and then wash with a stain or oil.  I use a brand found at Hobby Lobby called "Americana" by DecoArt.  These come in thousands of colors so take you color chits and color wheel with you, airbrush well, and run about $0.85 a bottle when not on sale.

Scott

Donnie:

The Model Shipways yellow ochre color is actually quite good, all things considered. It could be a tad darker, but then no one rally knoes for sure just what that color is supposed to be. :)

By the by, if anyone is interesting in planking that hull, it is easiest to do if you just plank the topsides from the wales up. While I like Chuck's idea of carving down the hull, I think for a beginner it will be just as easy to apply the thicker wales over the solid hull, after the hull has been shaped, and then plank the topsides like Chuck did. Then you can just use a clear sealer on the wood, allowing the color of the wood to imitate the paint color. It is referred to sometimes as painting with wood. Chuck's basswood planking looks mighty good to my eye. You can the appropriate sized strips at most hobby stores for very little.

Russ

 

 

 

 

Russ,

Have you done some planking without carving down a solid hull?  I was wondering whether the 1/16" difference above and below the wales would be noticeable.

Bruce

Bruce:

Years ago I scratch built a solid model that I planked above the wales. Alas it did not survive, but I can tell you that on the Sultana's hull, you can plank the wales with say 1/16" thick and then do the topsides in 1/32" and the effect will be pretty good. There only needs to be a subtle difference in thickness above and below the wales at this scale. Remember, on this model, 1/64" is 1" on the full sized hull. Thus, if you have a 1/16" thick wales and topside plank of 1/32", that's a difference of a scale 2" thickness above the wales which is well within scale limitations. However, if you try and create too much of a difference in thickness between the wales and the topside plank, the scale effect will be lost. The key here is to create that subtle difference in thickness and then let the color contrast complete the illusion.

Even at the bottom of the wales there is only a scale 4" difference from the wales to the solid hull underbody. At this scale, it will hardly be noticed, but if the paint job on the wales and the bottom of the hull is done neatly, the effect will be very nice indeed.

Russ

 

I agree with Russ 100%.  If this is your first experience with a solid hull model then the approach Russ described is the best way to go.  Granted, carving the hull as I did above the wales produces a more accurate hull shape.  However, the added thickness as Russ describes will not be noticable.  In fact, you could also sand the bottom of the wales so they are slightly thinner , therefore lessoning the difference.  This would make it almost impossible to tell the difference. 

 

Again, this is the beauty of a solid hull.  There are more than a few ways to proceed whether you decide to plank the model or not.  Another alternative would be to plank the entire hull.  This would require some experience with spiling and tapering planks.  I wanted to avoid having to do this below the wales and that is why I only planked above them.  In addition to this, I do prefer a smooth painted surface below the wales on a model of this scale.   This is an important discussion to have before starting the model.  For example.  If you decided to plank the hull as Russ describes, then the bulwarks would not have to be removed from the hull and built back up later.  There are many choices depending on your skill level with a solid hull.

Regarding paints - I'm sure artist acrylics would work fine on a model like this.  I've used them several times with good results on wood, paper, and primed metal; on styrene they didn't seem to adhere as well.

My personal favorite line of paint, though, is PolyScale acrylics.  The range is vast; though only a few of the colors are specifically formulated for ship modelers, the colors for railroads, aircraft, and armor number in the hundreds.  Just don't get hung up on the labels.  WWII German Panzer Red-Brown, for instance, is a good, reddish mahogany, and "aged concrete," to my eye, is an excellent base color for unfinished decks.

The Testor's Acryl range is also enormous.  I don't find the brushing consistency of this line quite as friendly as PolyScale's, but it's good paint - and the range has recently been expanded to include quite a few colors specifically formulated for sailing ships.  It includes, for instance, both yellow ochre and orange ochre, and a color called "tallow" that's a fair representation of newly-applied eighteenth-century "white stuff" bottom paint. 

Minwax makes a lot of products that are useful for projects like this.  Unfortunately they seem to have deleted their "driftwood" color wood stain, which I used to like for deck planking.  (Olympic Paints, also available at places like Lowe's, makes a nearly-identical color.)  I particularly like Minwax's touch-up pens - wood stain in the form of fiber-tipped pens.  They come in handy for all sorts of jobs in the building of a small wood model, and don't require anything in the way of cleanup.   

Russ and Chuck,

Thanks for the planking advice. Planking on the hull without carving the hull out seems to give another rather interesting option to ending up with the planking effect.

Chuck, you mentioned that planking the hull as Russ suggested would mean that you would not have to remove the bullwarks.  I quite like the way you have built up the bullwarks however and cannot see any reason why you could not use Russ's technique on the hull and your approach to the bulwarks.  The deck dimensions would be slightly off of course but other than that, do you see any problems?

Bruce

Bruce:

I honestly had not thought of that idea, but I think you're correct. You could remove the bulwarks and then simply use the topside hull planking to build them back up as Chuck did with his model. The only difference from Chuck's model is that you would not do all the extensive carving along the upper hull.

Russ