ARMOR - Tamiya 1/16 Tiger 1 Group Build

wlad, what is solder paint?
cheers,

Hi tomzag,

It is millions of tiny particles of solder suspended in a thickish flux, so it ends up looking like a dark grey thick paint. As far as I know there is only one manufacturer of this – a UK company called Carr's. I posted info on this on page 66 so you can check back there. It is an alternative to using traditional wire shaped solder and the theory is "if you can paint it, you can solder it." I hope this helps.

Ok some more on gear reductions etc.

I tried in vain to get some from Willy for ages, I think he just hasn't the time to deal with orders properly since it is not his full time job. Fortunately someone recognized the problem – bob@etoarmor.com has them for sale US$75 the set, which I don't think is too expensive (and cheaper than Willy's), they are not listed on his website but you can email him for info. I got a set from him and they work a treat - scale speed, more torque and more realistic movement! Tell him what model you have, what style gearboxes and motors and he'll help you out. Nice guy and keen RC modeller too! They are identical to those pictured on willy's site http://www.customrcmodels.com/Tanks/id78.htm#big_block_motors.

Out of curiosity I dug around a little and found they are actually made by a company called Maxx Products International, Inc. http://www.maxxprod.com/mpi/mpi-10a.html but that is just the starting point. They have Maxx stamped into the black anodised aluminium cover which is a bit of a giveaway (took me a while, lol!). I noticed that the "Jamara" ones have this too, as do all others I've seen, so they are all actually the Maxx ones. ACC347 is the code for the ones with a nylon gear from the Maxx website. Unfortunately Maxx only ship in the US but they are resold all over the place under different names like Jamara (or Irvine in the UK.) I purchased another set for direct comparison, locally for £9.99 each with a metal (aluminium) gear instead of nylon. I can't see that either would be stronger, the aluminium gear is just a bit noisier than the nylon (Panzerpabst, that explains the noise the guy on the german forum was talking about, it is not the gear reduction itself which runs on ball bearings, it is the aluminium gear creating noise when it meshes with the brass motor pinion, the nylon gear creates a lot less noise.) I got them from here http://www.alshobbiesstore.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Miscellaneous_Accessories_20.html the smaller one pictured left - to suit 400 series. They are designed for model airplanes hence the nylon/aluminium rather than steel. They come with three brass motor pinion gears with 10, 12 and 14 Teeth all with set or grubscrews to attach them to the motor shaft, and a aluminium thingy for a prop. Although it's a nice piece ditch the aluminium thingy. You need to have a few decent tools or access to them and do need to do a little work to get them to fit and work properly if you are going this route. Here's some info

Those supplied to me from ETO differ to those I bought over here by:

1. The output shaft has been machined flat on one side right at the end to accept the set or grub screw of the output gear (not easy to do even with a milling machine with the steel being super hard, it'll take most of eternity with a file) It comes with a machined flat area in the middle of the shaft but the output gear needs to sit at the end of this shaft to mate with the Tamiya gears. Maybe you could get away with not machining this area, just using the grubscrew and maybe some loctite 680 but I wouldn't fancy it. Each to their own.

2. The 14T output gear supplied by ETO is steel with a suitable hole arrangement to fit the 4mm shaft. (I think this is the gear mentioned here http://www.maxxprod.com/mpi/mpi-99.html CODE ACC347-1) but I am not certain because there is no picture. There are spare motor pinions at this page too. I haven't seen these on any UK website but maybe some company that sells the Maxx gear reduction could get them in for you. This steel 14T gear supplied by ETO is actually the same basic spec as the brass 14T supplied with the Maxx one but this brass one would need to be drilled out from 2.3mm to 4mm to fit the axle. To do this properly you would need a drill press or drill stand. However the 14T supplied with the Maxx stuff is also the motor pinion recommended to use on the Tiger 1 with old style gearboxes for correct scale speed, but you could use the Maxx supplied 12T and be a bit slower or get another 14T. Nothing is easy!

3. It has two 2mm holes (extra to those already there), drilled and tapped into each black cover plate to attach the reductions to the gearbox. The position of these holes is different for each gear reduction (left and right) and also will vary again according to your motor selection (different if you use "long cans" or other non-standard motors) and also possibly gearbox type. The position of these holes is absolutely crucial as this sets the mating and gear lash between the gear reduction output gear and the tamiya gears. I guess you could mill/drill a couple of small slots and use bolts and nuts so you have a little leeway.

Of course you will need a gear puller to easily remove the Tamiya motor pinion too. Also the whole arrangement of which motor pinion and everything else would need to be different to suit the newer style gearboxes with the black plastic covers.

Basically if you want a quick and easy fix and one that will be correct contact bob@etoarmor.com US$75 the set, or if you are like me and suitably stupid and have access to some tools, buy a set elsewhere and mill, drill, tap etc. and hope you get it right! It was fun anyway!

I hope this helps.

id love to join in but i built that baby 2 years ago its a real cool project boys enjoy...regards jazz

Also some stuff on motors...

For those who want to really upgrade their motors to long cans like Willy's http://www.customrcmodels.com/Tanks/id84.htm they are available in several places
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXEXU1&P=M For folk who are in the UK they are also available from a number of places just do a google search for "Multiplex Permax 480 7.2V Motor" I think I got them from http://www.stevewebb.co.uk/ because they had them in stock. I noticed that on some UK and European sites they are pictured as black, like here in germany http://www.multiplex-rc.de/ Makes no difference as long as the name and the spec is exactly the same.

Also a great tip (I got from a Flyer friend) to get even more power (10-30% more) from new motors is to "run them in properly." I nod my head and probably you are too but what does this really mean? He emailed me these links.

http://www.ezonemag.com/pages/faq/a401.shtml
http://www.ezonemag.com/pages/faq/a402.shtml

I must admit to being sceptical about this even though it makes perfect sense. One manufacturer of a rival motor (the Jamara Pro 480) actually recommends this on their instruction sheet but to do it at for at least 8 hours on 1/3rd the rated voltage. These might be the "German blacks" that Willy talks about, it's a guess.

Only way to tell if this makes a difference is to test some brand new ones against some brand new "run in" ones in the same tank doing exactly the same things, right after each other. I used a couple of rechargeable AA nicad cells (1.2V each x 2 = 2.4V, 1/3rd of 7.2V) and did the eight hours forwards and 2 hours backwards on 2 of the Multiplex Permax 480 7.2V motors (backwards too because tanks sometimes go in reverse, most planes don't.) After doing all sorts of silly driving tests and swapping the motors back and forth repeatedly (my neighbours think I'm nuts and they could be right, it seems to be a popular opinion) I have to say that there is a noticeable improvement in the performance of the "run in" ones over the brand new ones. I can't measure it in a percentage but it definitely has even more guts or torque throughout the range but specially noticeable at slow speeds. I would recommend it.

If you are nuts enough to do it just remember that the left and right motors run forwards in opposite directions so "run them in" in the correct direction.

Installed Willys gear downs yesterday, the noise is incredible coming from the gears... Is that the way it should be???

Wlad, thank you for the tips on solder paint. I have never seen this in US.
Personally, I do not like the Willy's gear reduction. the set i got has very rough craftmanship. After i installed it, it make sharp noise, sounds like more like m1 turbine engine. those noise make me not dare to drive the tank in afraid of that I may break the gears somewhere. that may be why he does not reply to his emails of orders.

You're welcome tomzag. Quite a impressive tank collection you have there!

On a general note, I guess adding more gears is always going to increase the noise levels of the gearbox. Also they should be well lubed and really the volume level of the speaker seems designed to be quite loud to cover any gearbox noise.

It's hard to compare gearbox noises but as long as they sound "sweet" all should be ok. If they don't sound sweet then maybe some adjustment is required. Any harsh noises are likely to be things not meshing properly, so you should examine in real detail where the harsh noises are coming from and try and adjust things like the gear lash etc. They tend to be harsh if the gear lash is too tight or if gears are not exactly parallel, or things like grubscrews on pinions are getting slightly caught on adjacent gears because of slack or wobble in the system. Also it's amazing the different sounds that come from different gear material for the same gears made of plastic, brass, steel, aluminium and combinations of those meshing together.

Back to the gear reductions, another thing I have noticed is that if the countersunk screws that hold the black covers of the gear reductions to the spacer rods are not completely countersunk and this face is the one meeting the gearbox it can mean that the output gear of the gear reduction meets the tamiya gear at a slight angle rather than exactly parallel. So they don't meet as they should and you get noise from the resulting clash, it may be a tiny adjustment that makes all the difference.There's always something!

I have replied to Nick's question earlier via email because he emailed me privately. Hopefully he won't mind the emailed info and hopefully a solution being posted later? Nothing secret, it just needs to be sorted, fingers crossed, and I am no expert, I just like to share my experiences and hopefully help others.

Regards

Wlad

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomzag Wlad, thank you for the tips on solder paint. I have never seen this in US. Personally, I do not like the Willy's gear reduction. the set i got has very rough craftmanship. After i installed it, it make sharp noise, sounds like more like m1 turbine engine. those noise make me not dare to drive the tank in afraid of that I may break the gears somewhere. that may be why he does not reply to his emails of orders.

Tom ,
you did not get any of my gearreductions , at least not from me ....
so please don't write statements like that ....

Willy
CustomRCmodels

QUOTE: Originally posted by nick lambros Installed Willys gear downs yesterday, the noise is incredible coming from the gears... Is that the way it should be???

Nick ,
I don't recall that you did get any of my gearreductions ....,
guess yours are not installed correctly....
where did you get them from ?
which type gearbox do you have and what type gearreduction did you get ...
I made several differnt versions ....

Willy
CustomRCmodels

Ok... I have two points to make:

One: If it WAS a reduction made by Willy, and hasn't been abused (aka bought second-hand) talk to Willy about it, cause he ~will~ make it right. I speak from experience on this, as I've had one of his semi-truck units, well made, very good instructions, and even the allen key to install the thing! I've been doing business with him for a few years now... and you guys know how picky I am.

Two: I know the new user here, as does Willy, and many others of the die-hard tankers over in ArmorHut. You want the 411 on things, ask me or Willy privately, as we won't repeat them here. I'm sure Willy could give you other names that will back our 'opinions' up (many of the ArmorNut guys 'know' Tom only too well)

'Nuff Said.

I think that some people are making genuine mistakes by calling any gear reductions they obtain "Willy's." Of course the only ones that are "Willy's" are ones that come from Willy. And the best advice if you have a problem with any item is to consult the manufacturer.

I am a great admirer of Willy's work and innovation in this hobby and often refer to his website.

well, the set I got are willys. and I do not wnat to state who pass the set to me. I had hard time line up the holes to mount them onto gearboxes. but I did. It is not the biggest problem. the products from garage factory are not perfect, you have to work a little to make it work.
But the noise was my big concern, it sounded like small scale turbine engine from M1 tank. the tank was running, but it make me feel unsafte. I do not know if I would break the gears or not.
i have been building rc tanks for people or me. I have at least built 50 tanks already. I have tried different gear reduction products, armorconcept, bob's, etc, they work differently, only willys one make me feel that way.
i can not speak for all other people. i can only state my own experience. LIke in early post, "personally, I do not like willys reduction kit". only me, do not like it.
Please go ahead, order, use and leave positive feedbacks if you like them. so other people will know.
Is it still Toyota even I did not buy it directly from Toyota factory? :)

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomzag well, the set I got are willys. and I do not wnat to state who pass the set to me. I had hard time line up the holes to mount them onto gearboxes. but I did. It is not the biggest problem. the products from garage factory are not perfect, you have to work a little to make it work. But the noise was my big concern, it sounded like small scale turbine engine from M1 tank. the tank was running, but it make me feel unsafte. I do not know if I would break the gears or not. i have been building rc tanks for people or me. I have at least built 50 tanks already. I have tried different gear reduction products, armorconcept, bob's, etc, they work differently, only willys one make me feel that way. i can not speak for all other people. i can only state my own experience. LIke in early post, "personally, I do not like willys reduction kit". only me, do not like it. Please go ahead, order, use and leave positive feedbacks if you like them. so other people will know. Is it still Toyota even I did not buy it directly from Toyota factory? :)

Tom ,
that you had a hard time to line up the mounting holes , that tells me right away ,
that these type gear-reductions you got , are not for that particular gearbox ,
you are using them for ........
my gearreductions do fit right away , no messing arround required ....
what other people do with my gearreductions and then sell them to somebody else ,
I have no controll about that ...
since you know me ,
why didn't you ask me in the first place what the problem may could be ,
insteed posting such statements .......
even if these gearreductions look like mine ,
doesn't mean they came out of my shop ...
my stuff is machined very precise ...
I know that quite a few people trying to do the same thing ,
but they don't seam to get there gearreductions accurate enought ...
I tell you what , send me these gearreductions you got ,
let me know for what tank and gearbox-style you are use them for ,
and I can tell you if these have bean made for that or not ....
if these gearreductions truley came out of my "garage" ,
I will send you a set what fits .....
if you tell me from whom you did get your set ,
I can tell you for what application they have bean original build ,
since I keep track on who gets what ....
I don't see the reason for keeping it secret from whom you did get them from ...??...

Willy
CustomRCmodels

Willy,
first of all, I got the gearboxes and reduction as a package.
second, Tamiya only produces about 5 different gearboxes and I have built more than 50 tanks. I know what to fit what.
third, I did not get it directly from you. why should I bother you.
furth, after I heard the noise from gearboxes, I know I even did not want to explore this.
fifth, i only share my personal experience about the reduction kit I got, obviousely not only me have noise problem, so it is not what fit what problem.
After all, this forum is a place to talk about technical side of rc tanks, and share personal experience with rc tank, parts. we do not want to get personal fight here, do not we.
Just drop it, let us talk about tanks. I did not like the reduction kit I got by you. that is my personal experience. I hope you solve the noise problem and improve your email reply quickness to your customer like you did here in the forum. so the people who like your stuff will like it better and the poeple who do not will start like them.

QUOTE: Originally posted by nick lambros Installed Willys gear downs yesterday, the noise is incredible coming from the gears... Is that the way it should be???

you must be a stupid wolfy. did you read above post? I just posted my personal experience after I reading above post.
whatever the gearbox you talked about, ask the gentlemen who bought from me tell the story. If he did not want to return the gearbox back to me for refund or repair because of the bad parts. that means this is not your business. but that gentlemen want to share his personal experience with the product I produce. that is his right.
the forum is place to share rc tank and technics, not for personal attack. if you have personal problem with me or somebody, sue me in the court, or just shut up.

for those who love rc tanks, here is some videos for you. enjoy.

http://tomsrctanks.com/images/ktbbshootingwin.WMV
http://tomsrctanks.com/images/gepardwin.WMV
http://tomsrctanks.com/images/leopardwin.WMV

To Wlad:

An EXCELLENT article on the gear reduction information. I came to the same
conclusions after 2-months of research. So I confirm your work.

BTW a little more info if you would. On the MAXX unit, how many teeth are on
the main spur gear (both the metal one and/or the nylon one)? I wasn't able
to obtain that information. And also, what is the length of the main spur gear
axle?

I chose the Great Planes ElectriFly GPMG0220 gear reduction unit from Tower
Hobbies, because it had a longer axle shaft of 1.32 inches and a 24-tooth main
nylon spur gear.

Hi cheezz,

Both the aluminium and nylon gear are the same - 30 teeth. The axle is 26mm long, protruding approx 9.5mm out from the reduction unit. (Sorry about the metric measurements.) I hope this helps.

WLAD, Thanks very much! Most helpful.

Just for your info. I found a gearbox made by Watt-Age at Hobby People #131341. It has the same dimensions as the MAXX with the 26mm shaft, 9.5mm protruding, ball-bearings, but with a 25-tooth spur gear instead of a 30T.

Also, the MaxxProd code ACC347-1 you gave (and questioned) for the 14T output gear is actually the "main shaft with the 30T spur gear replacement". To the lower right of that item is part number ACC387-2 which is a 14T pinion gear for a 1/8" shaft that needs to be drilled out slightly to 4mm to work as an output gear.

Thanks again.

QUOTE: the forum is place to share rc tank and technics, not for personal attack. if you have personal problem with me or somebody, sue me in the court, or just shut up.

For someone thats supposedly interested in " sharing " you don't seem to do very much. Two prime examples: Look in his " Products/Services " section, most of those parts are easily available at cheaper prices, yet he won't tell you who makes them. I will. Much easier that resorting to pointless legal garbage.

The traverse gear ~is~ from Tamiya's toy gearbox ( # 72005 ) or can be stripped from the gearbox supplied in the Static Tiger or King Tiger. MSRP of $16.50, seen in stores for under $10 US ( thats about 8 gears ) This data HAS been confirmed by others, as well as by myself.

The Bosch headlight can be found at:
- www.RCPpanzer-Shop.de under " Lighting " for 12.50 Euro;
- www.BackyardArmor.com under " Tamiya Detailing " for $19-22 US shipped (US)
- www.ETOArmor.com possibly, as he caries Schumo-Kits items.
Tom may make his own, but Schumo-Kit stuff is ~the~ Best (ask around)

When I made my 'grease-guards' for the Type 1 gearboxes, I posted the template free for all to download. They are easily cut from a 2 litre pop bottle, and attached with the existing bolts.

Wlad is supplying data on alternatives to Willy's and Bob's reduction units, but NOT trying to make money off it.

Thats ~sharing~ Tom. When will you ~share~ anything except negative comments and personal insults, Tom?

1. as stated on the front page of my website, you are not welcome. do not come back.

2. I have right to price my own products, customer have right to buy or not buy it.

3. I never sold stuff to cheap people, how can you tell the quality and where they come from without seeing it. such as turret rotation replacement gear.

4. my head lights are all made by me, not from somewhere else. go to other places if you want cheaper stuff.

5. every body will kick your ****** for your "sharing theory". "sharing" is not "get it for free". you can share a opinion, a thought or and web link. you do not get free parts from other people, which you do best. You "share" info which you copied from one forum and paste to another one. People feel "oweing you" after you "help" with a answer. then you ask them about free parts. especially the biginggers who do not know you very well yet. that was what you did to me a few years back.

6. YOu will not ever get free stuff from me again even the "the wiring diagrams for the electricals ". that is the property of intelligence. they are not for stupid person.

7. You are just simply pointless, how can you sue me of "selling high prices" and "not telling who make them". that is why you never graduate from high school.

Again, just drop this topic. I do not think people like this stuff going on here. I will not reply to your nonsense even you keep going.

I'll reply to these "accusations" to make a few things clear, then cease & desist for the peace of this group.

Item #2. I ~never~ said you could not price them as you wish. But because the Tiger 1 builders here share, we point out the lowest prices around so we can save $. That is what I was doing.

Item #3: Many have used the Tamiya parts, and as they are cheaper in ~cost~, and the ~identical~ gear as the others inside the traverse but cast in another color, why not use the maker's same item? Another case of " helping others save money "

Item #4: Again, another case of easily available and cheaper.

Item #5: You're the one that said:

QUOTE: the forum is place to share rc tank and technics

Please, enlighten us on this apparent conflict of your statements.

As for the personal defamation, the guys here already know me. I have never insisted anyone owed me, nor have I ever begged for ' free parts '.

Item #6: Most of the ArmorHut guys don't charge their batteries inside their tanks, because they ~cycle~ them (one charging, one being run) and if a battery blows, it will wreck the tank. Most people won't take that risk.

Item #7: I said you weren't worth it. You mentioned suing, not me. Don't put words in my mouth because you cannot understand what I'm saying/writing.

You began this personal attack. You delete yours, I'll delete mine. Agreed? I've already deleted one to put the first effort in.

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomzag QUOTE: Originally posted by nick lambros Installed Willys gear downs yesterday, the noise is incredible coming from the gears... Is that the way it should be??? you must be a stupid wolfy. did you read above post? I just posted my personal experience after I reading above post. whatever the gearbox you talked about, ask the gentlemen who bought from me tell the story. If he did not want to return the gearbox back to me for refund or repair because of the bad parts. that means this is not your business. but that gentlemen want to share his personal experience with the product I produce. that is his right. the forum is place to share rc tank and technics, not for personal attack. if you have personal problem with me or somebody, sue me in the court, or just shut up.

You deleted your post not trying to show effort. you are trying to be sneaky and hide the truth.
My post will be out of context after you deleted your post. you want people think I was attacking you first and you are so gentleman that would delete one of you post first.
but people know the truth. In the post you deleted before above quote, you were telling people that I was the first one to complain about the willy's gear reduction kit. and I ripped one gentleman off by selling bad products.

"he made me talking again, next post he will ask why i did not keep my words by answering his nonsense."

Tom... you have some nasty double standards here...

Watch closely everyone:

He says I'm ~not~ allowed to report on a secondhand " trashed " gearbox which came from him via someone else...

BUT...

He says he ~is~ allowed to report on a secondhand gearbox thats " noisy " that came from Willy via someone else. Before Tom denies this fact, Willy has already he did NOT sell Tom any reductions, hence it HAS to be a ~secondhand~ unit.

Please note that he also ignored to " define " his version of " sharing ".

Judge for yourself people...

Ok, let's get back to normal now.

Of course all this talk of gear reductions is redundant if you have a gearbox that is designed from scratch to give accurate scale speed and loads of torque...




Nice eh? This is the Wecohe gearbox upgrade for the Tiger 1 with "old style" gearboxes (without the black plastic covers). In reality it is more of a gearbox re-build than a simple upgrade. And I also replaced the Tamiya nylon gears that it retains (the 3 largest ones in each gearbox) with metal ones made by HPC Gears because I wanted to, (bought from ETO Armor in the US because it's a hell of a lot cheaper to buy from Bob than it is to deal direct with HPC in the UK!) Crazy world isn't it!

I've had it a while now but have not been able to post pics due to a lack of imaging hardware (camera). I still don't have one... I keep buying tank bits instead! So thanks to a friend taking some pics, I can share it with you.

How does it run? Awesome... just don't get in it's way... it is truly evil. As is the cost.

What the pics don't show because it is obscured by the front bracing piece is that the most forward gear meets a smaller one that is on the output shaft.

I hope you enjoy it!

Regards,

Wlad

how much total cost for this set-up?

ADMIN EDIT

Contact Whitewolf directly if you're interested in his products.

For prices on the gearbox upgrade take your pick between www.wecohe.de or www.etoarmor.com ,I dont think www.backyardarmor.com has them. For the HPC metal replacement gears email bob@etoarmor.com for prices.

For those who are unsure whether to get a belly plate from WW or not, I can thoroughly recommend them! The quality of finish has improved since the very first one and they do exactly what they are designed to do. A great addition, don't hesitate, get in quick before I'm tempted to buy the lot...(only kidding about that WW... err, I think...) The internal one with Daryl Turners's gearbox plate for the tiger bait sounds cool.