MiG Killers Group Build, 7/07 to 6/08

That Dogfight series is an excellent program. Have not seen one episode that I didn't like.

Scott

sidure wrote:

Hey Guy's, did any of you see the History channells Dogfight series tonight. it was on Mig killers ( very appropriate I thought ). It featured the only twin gun kill by Air Force F-4's in the war and also very interestingly the A-1 kill of a Mig, I believe someone is doind the A-1 in this GB. Great show I thought. Steve

Dang!!!  I missed it.

Hey Guy's, did any of you see the History channells Dogfight series tonight. it was on Mig killers ( very appropriate I thought ). It featured the only twin gun kill by Air Force F-4's in the war and also very interestingly the A-1 kill of a Mig, I believe someone is doind the A-1 in this GB. Great show I thought.

Steve

Flyingcoach2 wrote:

While working on my vls pit set for the f-86...i broke the control stick   Search and rescue was unable to locate the missing piece.  Guess ill have to use the one from the kit....   Hope to finish it this weekend and post some pics Monday.

That Carpet Monster got it.  Do what I do and put out a bowl of plastic scraps for it to snack on. That will keep him from eating your parts. LOL

While working on my vls pit set for the f-86...i broke the control stick   Search and rescue was unable to locate the missing piece.  Guess ill have to use the one from the kit....   Hope to finish it this weekend and post some pics Monday.

ilovef-4 wrote:

Hey Air, thanks for the walk around on the head. I have one more question, will this work on the M-9J/N missile with the smaller body shaft than the M's? I working on both now and got the M's started but trying to figure out how to do the J/N's with the same tips. Charlie

Charlie,

Should work regardless of the tip. If you follow my walkthrough make sure the side of the clear tips are flush to the missiles upper shaft. I know the J and N tapers and angles near the tip but this shouldnt be a problem if you sand the clear tips sides flush with the tapered angle of the missile head. 

Mist086 wrote:

Ooops.  1/72nd.  That's all the room i have to do.  It was fun switching all my 1/48th to 1/72nd.  It's an Italeri kit

Ok Bro, your all set.

Mist Aboard!!! Got you signed up. Let me know the scale so I can get that listed also.

Mist086 wrote:

Ok Rand.  This will be the 2nd GB you suckered me into.  One question before i commit.  Does it have to be US flown planes?  Or will Israeli be ok?  I have a couple of planes i can dobut want clarification before hand.

WELL! I NEVER!!!  Well... I mean... I did but.... I'll never tell.... you cant beat it out of me and last time wasnt my fault. Thats my story and Im sticking to it!

Yes, US flown MIG Killers planes for now. I may change it later to allow for other countries. Let me know what plane your going to do and I'll get ya on the list.

ilovef-4 wrote:

Glad to see you go the info you needed there Air Master. Great job on the cockpit and the mating of the bride and groom. Update on my F-4E, rescribed panel lines on th fuselage halfs and ordered intakes, wheels and int/ext detail kits. Also cleaned up some ugly pieces on the wings and slabs. I will post pics as soon as I get batteries to take pics. Still looking for info about the aircraft that I plan on doing. I was wondering how you made the heads on the M-9 missiles. Charlie

Ahhhhh, Young padwan, making clear seeker heads for AIM-9 Sidewinders is easy!

1. Take the clear sprue that your models canopy parts came on and cut off some of the rounded plastic that the held the parts to the sprue tree, cut off about 1/16" of an inch from the sprue. Use a razor saw blade to cut them. You may want cut more than you need just incase the carpet monster gets hungry he will have snack. Now file down the flat ends and set them aside.

2. Get your AIM-9's out and cut 1/16th" off the tip and file tip flat.

3. Take some super glue (CA) and glue the clear rounded pieces to the missile tips and secure it by brushing on some more Super Glue (CA) at the tip and let it cure.

4. After CA has cured take 400 grit sand paper and sand sides flush to the missile shaft and the tip sanded round, 

5. Next take a 4 grit nail polishing stick and polish only the tips untill they're clear as glass, start with the Buff grit and work down to the Polish grit.

6. Paint your missile accordingly but dont paint the top tip on the missile. Mask off the tip before painting. 

7. Viola, Realistic looking missile seeker heads on your AIM-9's. Before adding stripes brush on some Future or gloss coat the missile. I used decals for missile stripes and they will adhere better to a glossy smooth surface, and seal decals with gloss coat after and mask tips again before spraying on a clear dull coat.

Let me remind you that I have been doing this for years and perfected my technique so, if you make a mistake keep working at it until you get it right. Patience and persistace will pay off.

This is the way I do it and hope this helps you toward getting them looking like the real thing. 

It's good to see that your question was answered. 

Fortunately for me, there doesn't seem to be any lack of reference material on Scat XXVII.  It's expecially fortunate that the machine itself is parked about 40 miles from where I live. 

Semper Fi,

Chris    

Jim, The first pic is reversed (backwards) for comparision to the second picture this is why the the BuNo# looks different but I assure you it's the same aircraft.

I also stated in the aircraft forum where I also posted for help for my Showtime 100 build, what Randy Cunningham did when he left the service really has no bearing here and would be time wasted debating it here when we could be working on our models. I am not condoning his greed, but he does have my respect as a Naval Aviator and deserves the honor as such. My reasons for building it are not because he flew it but for what he and Willie Driscol proved that a gunless fighter flown well can out fight a MIG.

I understand your emotions and you are entitled to them. I just dont want a heated debate to get started over it, so please let it end here.

Thanks

EDIT: Yes I recall the picture your refering to had two Phantoms from VF-96, The first Phantom was #157267 often refered to as Showtime 112, which was the plane he flew when he got his first two kills on May 8th, 1972, It is also the same plane his wing man flew on May 10th.

Rand, not to be disrespectful to you, but did you notice that there were two different Showtime 100's in those images from the previous pages. The BuNo's were different. Take care. Nice GB, if I did not have so much going on, and if I had decals from Mig kills I would join the GB. Good luck to all of you, I think I will be following this one carefully.

IMHO and only IMHO, while I respect those who wan't to reperesent history as it happened in 1972, and even with me idolizing Duke for years. I find it hard for me to even consider doing Showtime 100. While I respect those who wish too, I just could never get myself to do Showtime 100 after what Duke did later on in life. Duke is one of two heros of mine who hurt many people (OJ was the first). so forgive me for expressing my negative emotions toward Duke, and please understand that it's NOT directed at you. 

Steve and everyone, Thanks for all your help on this! Berny saw my post on the Aircraft forum and set the record straight.

----- 

Berny writes:

One centerline 600 gallon tank

Two AIM-7E Sparrow missiles on the aft missile wells.  The forward missile wells were empty.

Inboard pylons loaded with TER's and 6 MK-20 Mod 1 Rockeyes.

Four AIM-9G Sidewinder missiles.

Outboard wing stations empty.  No tanks or pylons were carried.

-----

Problem solved, Berny saves the day!

Hey Rand,  not to make this problem you have any more confusing but I have some info that may help or make it worse. A friend of mine was flying missions in the same operation as Showetime 100 when he was flying with VF-31. I am doing his CO's bird for this GB and I built him a model of his bird last year. It was a suprise gift for him and he loved the build. Later he came to me and asked if I could change the loadout and he was reluctant to ask me. As he explained it to me and showing me photos of his bird in May and June. The changes he wanted was to remove the wing tanks and replace them with TER's with three bombs on each wing. The loadout ended up with a center line fuel tank, sidewinders on the inboard station and TER's on the outboard with three bombs with the usuall complement on the fuselage. This is how VF-31 flew their birds in May and June from the usuall load of fuel tanks on the outer station. Of course this may not be true of all squadrons in that time period but it might make sence that was the missions they were flying.

I ended up buying a weapons set by hasegawa to get the extra TER's that I needed to make the bird accurate for the missions they were flying in June 72. After that and before that time they went back to carrying the extra fuel tanks on the outbord station. Hope this does not make it more confusing for you Rand and maybe help a little. Outside of that, why not drop Cunningham a line and ask him. Also, the History channell did a bit on the Dogfights series of the events of that day, not that they may be the be all and say all.

Steve

Charlie,

That is not the problem. What I am trying to find out is the specific weapons load Randy Cunningham and Willie Driscol had on their F-4J (Showtime 100) on May 10th, 1972. This is the day that they became the first and only U.S Navy ACES getting thier 3rd, 4th, and 5th kills on that day. Thier primary mission was an air strike against the Hai Duong Railway and storage depo. Secondary mission was to protect A-7E's on bombing strikes. Now, the weapons load out conflicts. According to the book I have (Great Book of Modern Warplanes), Showtime 100 was loaded out with two AIM-7s Sparrows on belly, four AIM-9's (two per pylon) on inboard stations and six Rockeye Cluster bombs on TER's and lastly a centerline station fuel tank. Showtime 100 did not have wing drop tanks loaded.

The problem is the load out configuration for the Rockeye's are in conflict. I am trying to determine if the Rockeye's on TER's were carried on the same pylons (inboard) as the Sidewinders or were they carried on TER's on the outboard pylons seperately. The pictures I posted explain the conflict. There is no record of this plane having pylons on the outboard stations and if it did there is no mention of it.

My kits weapons load out shows the Rockeye's as being on same inboard stations on TER's under the sidewinders, but there is no mention of this on the official combat record.

This is what is driving me insane. 

ridleusmc wrote:

It's too bad that all of the flight deck crews on the Constellation were too busy to take pictures before Cunningham and Driscol were launched.  Sometimes, there just isn't a reference.  Chris

Agreed! History is rarely recorded as it happens, just written about afterwards. Makes me wish digital cameras and digtal video cameras had been invented then.

Anywayyyyy.... I cut the pylons off the wing drop tanks and will use those as the outboard pylons without any weapons on them. This should work out for the configuration in the second picture above.

Thanks for your help Chris!

It's too bad that all of the flight deck crews on the Constellation were too busy to take pictures before Cunningham and Driscol were launched.  Sometimes, there just isn't a reference. 

Chris 

Chris,

This is going to drive me insane I tell you!!!

I have the same book and it doesn't say anything about any additional pylons, just that rockeye's were carried (6) on TER's. The web article you pulled up conflicts and says there were 12 rockeye's carried which would be consistant with two pylons on each wing. This means 4 TER's and 3 rockeye's on each TER plus 4 sidewinders (2 per inboard pylons) and 2 sparrows on the aft undercarriage forward of the tail pipes and centerline fuel tank.

Hopefully Berny will see my post in the aircraft forum and tell me which one is correct. Until then I'll contunue working of the weapons but I will put off attaching them untill I know for sure.

I couldn't find a definative answer, but I did find this article.

http://www.acepilots.com/vietnam/cunningham.html

The headline isn't very flatering to Cunningham, but it does have some good info about the last flight of Showtime 100.  It includes an armorment layout in text.   

Venturing an educated guess, The first pic makes more sense to me.  It makes more sense in ease loading and balance.  It's hard finding such specific info, even my "Great Book of Modern Warplanes" let me down (first time ever).

Semper Fi,

Chris  

I've started working on weapons and I am quite confused by couple of pictures I saw showing Showtime 100 with two pylons on wing stations.

First picture shows AIM-9's on inboard pylons and Rockeye's on outboard pylons.

(pic is reversed for comparision)

Second picture show two pylons but both AIM-9's and Rockeye's on same inboard pylons

Now here is the problem Monogram did not include the second pylon and there is only one pylon provided for both missiles and bombs on TER's. Now the question is... which configuration is correct?

See the confusion.   I am also posting this of the AC forum and see what anyone has to say.

Will do. Have a business trip this week out of town, but will be on it right after.

Glenn

Well Gents,

Here is another progress update from your gracious host. I have the belly and wings glued on, puttied, sanded, re-scribed where needed and sanded again smoother than a baby's bottom.

I have started the intake assemblies and will finish that later today then start on some sub assemblies ( landing gear, doors, canopy, weapons and pylons). I am hoping to get a primer coat on it by the end of this weekend if all goes well or by early next week. I am anxious to break in my new air compressor and give it a good work out.

Thats all for now.

OH yeah before I forget...... Glenn, GET CRACKING! We wanna see pictures soon.

Thanks for having me, ya'll. Those offices look great! I can't wait to get started.

Glenn