251 Halftracks GB 1 October '08 - 8 June '09

russamys wrote:

As with Specter, my scratchbuilding skills are minimal.  I will bow out and watch from the sidelines.  Looking forward to everyone's progress. Russ

Russ - since you have no preference, it wouldn't be too hard to squeeze you in. Most likely you'd end up taking my current place in the /21 drilling variant. Interested?

Specter - the /9 is booked pretty deep at this point. If it looks like it's going to open up, I'll let you know!

Hermes - you're already scratching one variant, I can't ask you to do two. I was thinking more along the lines of someone in one of the purchaseable variants. However, as it looks like I may be moving either into the /2 or /11(19) I'd certainly be highly appreciative if you sent me any info you might have on any of those three variants (schemes included!). A scan or photocopy of your /2 instructions would be highly sufficient, and earn you a smiley face of some sort...

dupes wrote:

russamys wrote: As with Specter, my scratchbuilding skills are minimal.  I will bow out and watch from the sidelines.  Looking forward to everyone's progress. Russ Russ - since you have no preference, it wouldn't be too hard to squeeze you in. Most likely you'd end up taking my current place in the /21 drilling variant. Interested?

Yes I am!  Thanks for fitting me in.

dupes wrote:

Russ - since you have no preference, it wouldn't be too hard to squeeze you in. Most likely you'd end up taking my current place in the /21 drilling variant. Interested?

Dupes,

any chance on getting in on this?  I have only the Cyber Hobby 251/17 Command, but really have no preference. 

Don

Russ - I've got you down for the /21 (for now, anyways) - and I'll move myself over into the /2 slot.

Pordoi - hmmmm. Well, I already have someone (FastasEF) slotted in the /17 command. If he's willing to give that slot up, or is unable to secure the kit, then I can certainly put you in there. Otherwise the only other option is to do one of the variants that will require some scratchbuilding/modification. I'm sure between me and Hermes we could help you find some info on what you'd need.

FastasEF - still committed to the GB? If yes, then no worries. Just checking to see if you've had any luck finding a /17 command (see above).

As things stand right now, the GB assignments look something like this:

                251 GB Kit Assignments (as of July 15)
               

Espins1                  Sd.Kfz. 251/1: Basic SPW fitted with the FuSpG ‘F’ R/T unit.

SMJModeler         Sd.Kfz. 251/1: Stuka Zu Fuss

Panzer88                Sd.Kfz. 251/1: Falke IR vehicle

Dupes                    Sd.Kfz. 251/2: 8cm GrW34 Mortar carrier

MPKev31b            Sd.Kfz. 251/3: Communications vehicle

BBrowniii               Sd.Kfz. 251/4: Light artillery tractor

White_R34            Sd.Kfz. 251/5: Engineer vehicle for special assault engineers

Luftwoller              Sd.Kfz. 251/6: Command Vehicle

Assurgeant           Sd.Kfz. 251/7: Engineer vehicle basic

Hermes                   Sd.Kfz. 251/8: Field Ambulance

JMart                      Sd.Kfz. 251/9: 7.5cm KwK37 L/24 Support vehicle

Sfcmac                   Sd.Kfz. 251/10: 3.7cm PaK36 light anti-tank gun vehicle

x                              Sd.Kfz. 251/11: Telephone communications vehicle

x                              Sd.Kfz. 251/12: Artillery surveying vehicle

x                              Sd.Kfz. 251/13: Artillery surveying vehicle (Sound recording)

x                              Sd.Kfz. 251/14: Artillery surveying vehicle (Sound ranging)

x                              Sd.Kfz. 251/15: Artillery surveying vehicle (Flash spotting)

Lewbud                  Sd.Kfz. 251/16: Flamethrower vehicle

Wing_Nut             Sd.Kfz. 251/17: 2cm Flak38 AA vehicle

Bish                        Sd.Kfz. 251/17: 2cm KwK38 Schwebelafette

FastasEF                Sd.Kfz. 251/17: Command vehicle

x                              Sd.Kfz. 251/18: Artillery observation and command vehicle

x                              Sd.Kfz. 251/19: Mobile telephone exchange vehicle

Bufflehead             Sd.Kfz. 251/20: 60cm IR “Uhu” searchlight vehicle (Ausf. D only)

Russamys              Sd.Kfz. 251/21: Triple 2cm MG151 and 151/20 AA vehicle

Panzerguy             Sd.Kfz. 251/22: 7.5cm Pak40 anti-tank vehicle

Moose421             Sd.Kfz. 251/23: Reconnaissance 2cm KwK38 turret 

dupes wrote:

Pordoi - hmmmm. Well, I already have someone (FastasEF) slotted in the /17 command. If he's willing to give that slot up, or is unable to secure the kit, then I can certainly put you in there. Otherwise the only other option is to do one of the variants that will require some scratchbuilding/modification. I'm sure between me and Hermes we could help you find some info on what you'd need.

Well, what can you tell me about either of these?

x                              Sd.Kfz. 251/12: Artillery surveying vehicle

x                              Sd.Kfz. 251/18: Artillery observation and command vehicle

Found a little info on the 251/18 and a photo of a map table attached (maybe a field mod).  I'm willing to try some converting and scratch building, but it would be best if I could use an existing kit as a foundation.  My overall knowledge of the 251 is sparse, so any help would be appreciated.

Don

Nifty. You should have no problem using an existing kit as a base at all. Let me see what I have on the 12 and 18 for info, and what Hermes is able to come up with. I don't know those variants off the top of my head, so I can't tell you what kit you would use to start with, but we can figure that out no problemo.

Can you post the pic(s) you have now? 

dupes wrote:

Specter - the /9 is booked pretty deep at this point. If it looks like it's going to open up, I'll let you know!

Thanks

Yup, got the AFV /17 command variant in my hands and my schedule is open. (Sorry Pordoi).

I can't wait for this GB to get started!

Josh

pordoi - here is some info for you.

251/12 - it seems this was a normal 251 issued to artillery units, and carrying the scissors telescope and red-and-white striped range measuring tool.

Basically, the only modification you'll need to make to a standard 251 kit is to add 3 mounts for the folded tripod, collapsed measuring rod, and the scissor telescope unit. This was carried in a leather case to protect the optics. There was also a map case holder and some vehicles were field-modified with a map table.

There would also have been a mount to attach the scissor telescope to the right of the front MG, as seen in this photo. This is a 251/13 and the object that looks like a Panzerfaust is actually part of the sound recording equipment. That won't be part of the 251/12's equipment, but the position of the telescope will be the same.

251/18 - based on an Ausf. C chassis and factory outfitted with a map table and two radios (FuG 5 and FuG 12, both with the 2m rod antenna rather than the previously used frame antenna.) Many early war 251/3's are mis-identified as an /18, because some /3's had a map table added in the field. The 251/18 first became available in 1943, so if it's gray, it's not an /18.

Your best starting kit would probably be the Dragon 251/6 since it already has some radio gear. This would require a good deal of scratchbuilding. Some say this is an /18, I'm not sure. The extra stuff over the front vision blocks doesn't look like radio gear, but it could be...

An interesting discovery I made last week was that the Wurfrahmen 40 280mm rockets could be and were mounted on many variants besides the 251/1. Here's a photo of a 251/10 with the mounts attached.

And here is one for you, dupes

Also, I had the morning off so I spent it assembling a collection of 251 reference photos and color plates on my photobucket account. Here is the link if anyone is interested. Ignore the filenames, whoever named them misidentified most of the vehicles.

Hermes, looks like we found some of the same 251/18 pics.  Here are three that were designated as 18s.

And these I'm not so sure of...

Don

Hermes Just did some checking with the stuff i have in my barrack block as my books are at home. Most of the stuff i have on the 251 was from the New vanguard book. According to that, i was wrong. The /18 was only build on the Ausf A and B chassis. If that is the case, isn't it possibel that the vehicle in the pic is a /18 which they simply didn't bother to paint over the grey.

Or is the Osprey book incorrect when it says it was built on the A and B chassis only.

EDIT: i get the feeling this is one of those areas of confusion. Just looked at one of those 251 sites that were put on page one, and that does say it was built on the C and D chassis. But given the role of the vehicle, wouldn't it have made more sense to convert older chassis, especially as some had already had map tables fitted, than to use new ones which would have been in desperate need else where. Another thing i noticed on that site is it says the /3 command vehicle didn't appear till 1943, but aren't there Ausf b /3 from before that period.

Hermesminiatures wrote:

251/12 - it seems this was a normal 251 issued to artillery units, and carrying the scissors telescope and red-and-white striped range measuring tool. Basically, the only modification you'll need to make to a standard 251 kit is to add 3 mounts for the folded tripod, collapsed measuring rod, and the scissor telescope unit. This was carried in a leather case to protect the optics. There was also a map case holder and some vehicles were field-modified with a map table. There would also have been a mount to attach the scissor telescope to the right of the front MG, as seen in this photo.

Well that seems doable, although I'd still like to get additional information or pics of the interior. Do you know if Panzer Tracts 11-1 has plans, drawings or photos of the /12 interior?  I might have to track down a copy.  Also, if I was to scratch a map table, I assume that would call for removing the front MG, correct?  I don't see the MG in any of the photos of vehicles with the map table.

Thanks for your help.

Don

Bish wrote:

Hermes Just did some checking with the stuff i have in my barrack block as my books are at home. Most of the stuff i have on the 251 was from the New vanguard book. According to that, i was wrong. The /18 was only build on the Ausf A and B chassis. If that is the case, isn't it possibel that the vehicle in the pic is a /18 which they simply didn't bother to paint over the grey. Or is the Osprey book incorrect when it says it was built on the A and B chassis only. EDIT: i get the feeling this is one of those areas of confusion. Just looked at one of those 251 sites that were put on page one, and that does say it was built on the C and D chassis. But given the role of the vehicle, wouldn't it have made more sense to convert older chassis, especially as some had already had map tables fitted, than to use new ones which would have been in desperate need else where. Another thing i noticed on that site is it says the /3 command vehicle didn't appear till 1943, but aren't there Ausf b /3 from before that period.

The whole 251 command variant is a confused mess. First, the 251/4 was a command vehicle, with basic radio, map table, and telescope, and the 251/6 was a command/radio platform with the frame antenna. Then in January 1943, somebody did some re-numbering so that the 251/4 became an artillery tractor and the 251/3 a command vehicle which was to be upgraded with the FuG-8 radio and frame antenna. The 251/6 was then re-assigned to a dedicated radio role, and the 25 ft telescoping antenna was added, along with three more radios. It was after this mess that the 251/18 was first produced, to provide a standardized tactical-level command vehicle without all the radio gear of the 251/6. As you can see, the 251/3 and 251/18 are going to be very similar, and even indistinguishable depending on the conversions done to an Ausf A or B 251/3. 

This also means that some early war vehicles with the frame antenna (such as the Afrika Korps ones) were actually early 251/6's and not 251/3's.

All that to say that you could build the vehicle in the photos on an A, B, or C chassis and call it a /3 or an /18 and get away with it.

Confusing

Man, I get off of the forums for one afternoon to ride my bike and look what I miss...

pordoi wrote:

And these I'm not so sure of...

Pordoi - this one's pretty interesting - you have the map tables AND what appears to be the front MG mounts still attached. I understood that the MG needed to be removed in order to fit that map table. Hmmmm. Let me know either way which variant you decide on, and I can add you to the roster.

Bish - I checked out that DML boxing and did some research. It appears that the only difference is that the MG34 with the shield has been removed, and an MG42 (carried by the Heavy MG Squad) has been thrown into the mount...this never actually received a new designation. As such, I don't think I can add it as an additional variant.

Hermes -  man, you're killing me here! So much good stuff - what references are you using? Or are you just the holder of many many online links? If there's any way you could PM me a larger scan of the 251/2 instructions (including paint schemes! and markings!) before the 1st of October that would be specTACULAR!

Anyone - ever seen, own, or have anything to do with the Panzer Tracts series? I hate to admit it, but I'm "none of the above"!   Just wondering if they're worth it - certainly seems like something I (we) could benefit from for this GB. Shoot me any thoughts!

yeah ,Hermi, you most definately are the man.

 Do you have any good pics (Or anyone else for that matter) of my 251/6. Im particularly interested in the radio arrangement and assosiated wiring. Cheers fella. You da man.

...Guy

dupes wrote:

Pordoi - ... Let me know either way which variant you decide on, and I can add you to the roster.

What the heck Dupes, I found the Dragon 251/6 ausfC for less than $19, so put me down for the /18.  I'll dig around between now and October to find what additional information I can to make an accurate conversion.  But given Hermes' history of the /3, /6 and /18, it seems that I have some freedom to be creative if necessary.

Don

dupes wrote:

Anyone - ever seen, own, or have anything to do with the Panzer Tracts series? I hate to admit it, but I'm "none of the above"!   Just wondering if they're worth it - certainly seems like something I (we) could benefit from for this GB. Shoot me any thoughts!

Dupes

Here is a link to a review of Panzer Tracts 15-3 (251 series).  There are some photos of what you will find in the book.  I believe that 15-2 and 15-3 both cover the 251 series:  http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=2975

Russ

Luftwoller wrote:

.... any good pics of my 251/6. Im particularly interested in the radio arrangement and assosiated wiring...

A few from a search done last night...

Now go find a Guderian figure.

Alrighty Pordoi, I've got you on the list for a /18. Nice batch of pics, btw. Hey, where'd you find the /6 for $19 bucks? Don't want you to give away any secret sellers or anything, but I'm certainly interested in snagging another one for turning into my own /18...

Russ - thanks for the Panzer Tracts link - looks like I'm going to need to get some of those. Do you guys actually order them right from the site? It seems waaaay outdated (i.e., the order form says "be sure to get your order in before the end of April"?), and doesn't appear to have everything in stock??? So was wondering if there's some other retailer you guys have purchased these from.

Whoo, getting fired up! 2 weeks until the assignments are official and every start really chomping at the bit to get building.

dupes wrote:

Hey, where'd you find the /6 for $19 bucks?

 No secrets.  Went to the source.

http://www.dragonusaonline.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=DRA6206

On special for $19.99 and I had a few Dragon Bucks left over from a previous purchase which reduced the price further.

Dang, I was just there the other day and it wasn't on sale. Have to snag another one...

Totally forgot about my Dragon Bucks too! 

Hermi Thats what i read on the site i read yesterday. I never realised that about the /3 and 4 being renumbered. I always thought that the /3 was mainly used for forward air controllers right from the start of the war. Once again, shows you how muthc the experts can get it wrong. Over the years i have relyed alot on the Osprey series, but am starting to be a bit more cautious about them.

So that would mean that the new Revell kit sold as a /3 Ausf B should actually be a /6.

dupes No problem on the sMG ariant, just thought i would mention it. Wasn't sure if it would be the same as the Stuka Zu Fuss.

That Panzer tract series looks interesting. I notice the two guys that did it have also written some Osprey books. If only they had done the one on the 251, that could have avoided confusion.

dupes wrote:

Russ - thanks for the Panzer Tracts link - looks like I'm going to need to get some of those. Do you guys actually order them right from the site? It seems waaaay outdated (i.e., the order form says "be sure to get your order in before the end of April"?), and doesn't appear to have everything in stock??? So was wondering if there's some other retailer you guys have purchased these from. Whoo, getting fired up! 2 weeks until the assignments are official and every start really chomping at the bit to get building.

I have one Panzer Tracts that I bought off a dealer on Amazon.  The price was a couple bucks cheaper and the shipping was almost identical.  Otherwise, you can Google it and find other dealers.  From what I understand, ordering directly from the publisher is fine too.  His website is low-tech, but he is responsive and has most publications in stock.  Some books may run out now and then - he has a small operation - but I think they reprint the popular ones as necessary.  Again, no personal experience - just what I have read in other places.

Russ

some assembly required wrote:

while looking for any info about the marks left i found a cool site. www.onelist.com/community/sdkfz251. i hope it helps with some more obscure varients

Sounds interesting but I get this message when trying to access:

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