The "extra" turret would surely work well on an M60 hull as a very possible "what-if"......   hint, hint.

Sgt Rock Fury

Pity... 'course you can always "rust-bunny" it and place it on an "Impact Area" dio, lol... Putting scale 105/155mm holes in strategic places (with the burst-results evident) can cover a multitude of sins, lol....

I remember well the hulk of an M4 "Easy 8" that they'd pulled off the IA at Ft Hood, and up to the MATES there @ North Ft Hood... The only recognizable Sherman parts were the tranny-cover, one side of the hull, and the VVS... Turret was gone, except for the bottom-half...It'd been hit by at least 15 HEAT and a dozen or so AP...Seen fewer holes in Swiss Cheese...

Guys,

Thanks all, for understanding and for the sympathy! I'm so &#&$&^@ at myself!! So much for "Art over accuracy"! Well, I am actually happy, to be honest--because now I have a chance to really make something special out of this special tank. The tips from Cookie Sewell, and the extra parts will really make it a better model in the end. 10 years ago I might have accepted it as it was, but my standards are just so much higher now, and I would hate to put something up as "finished " that I wasn't happy with.

I'm goin to "punish" myself with the next build, lol.....the Dragon "Vorpanzer" IV "Super kit"!

Well...that inhales....but better late than when its on the shelf! Now patience you will be fine! think of it this way...more time with your 4 legged model building buddy!

Rounds Complete!!

I've also put down a few projects that wasn't working out the way I planned. Anyway, cool, you have a new project in line. I'll be watching 

oh too bad!! you got all of us in your train and now you let us know there is no stop at the end of line...

im kidding, surely you will bring us something much better  

Hey, don't fret (no pun intended).

 You've already got the turret licked  so it isn't a "Total" loss. On the positive, you'll be back with a better understanding and a better build.

doog, sorry to hear about all the effort for naught, it can be frustrating sometimes.

And my Dad was only working on the casting process for the turret armor pieces (as far as I know) so no pics of anything that resembled a tank, plus it was pretty much "hush-hush" at the time. He did complain a lot about having to work with and from two identical but different sets of plans: one metric, one fractional, since at the time they were still working with German engineers.

sounds like my Zvezda 1/72 (OTS) SS-25 but mine went south at the painting. i also have a new unopened one sitting next to it.

next may i suggest building a warwheel instead of a tracked vehicle

OUCH Karl, that blows! Course I've made far bigger stupider mistakes so I'm looking forward to learning something from how you work things out!

"SScccrrrrrRRREEEEEEEECHH!!!"

UH, that's the sound of this project coming to a screeching halt! ...

Well, to be honest, I just came across an online article by Cookie Sewell.. which, frankly, showed a lot more competence, creativity, and skill in correcting and detailing this model, and after seeing it, I realize that there's no way I could live with the mistakes which I've made here, most notably the error of not realizing that those dumb suspension arms really ARE different--one is about 1mm slightly longer than the other, so when I ignored the placements of them, I would up staggering the wheels in a haphazard way that is really rather noticeable. Uh oh.

Needless to say, new kit on the way. Also, I've decided to go in for some PE chains for the smoke dischargers, a metal barrel that has correct rifling, and some other small detail things that will be more accurate and satisfying to build this unique vehilce which has such sentimental significance to me from my younger years. Parts have ben ordered, and will be here with two weeks, which means.....

OH JOY! WHat to build NOW?!

Going through my stash as we speak...

Well so far Karl I haven't had any big problems with the kit, but you guys have me worried now that I may be having to do some re-engineering. Hopefully I can get through without any major issues. So far, so good.

There are a lot of extra sprues and I'd say a good 1/3rd of the original parts are marked in the instructions as "Not needed". I know I'm going to have extra wheels and suspension parts, I have a spare complete rear deck for an M-48/A1 build, a couple of .30 cal MGs, etc. Lots of left-overs for interesting conversions later.

M. Brindos

Okay, that's some better progress than I'm making. The inserts are brilliant and I like how you do your weld seams. They look very clean like they should.

I do have a little more of a peg to work with on the M-103 though. Yours truly are just stubs. What concerns me more is the way they have the bogies attached. It doesn't seem like they will hold up to any kind of pressure. So I'm afraid that if I were to apply too much force while stretching on the tracks I may knock a few off. I'm leaving off the drive sprockets till final assembly due to that concern.

There are no pegs for the drive sprockets on the M-103 either, but they do have something to glue the sprockets to and not a big hole to cover up. That has got to be a huge error in either engineering or some left out part that should be there. Heck if I know which.

Thanks for the . I share your concerns about the wheels breaking off--not so much the bogies on this model, but again, the stubs that you attach the wheels to are just tiny. Would it really have been so hard to engineer the attachment arms going a few extra mm's into the wheel?

When I look at the way that these kits were engineered and planned, they seem to have the aire of a "junior team"in some of the rather clumsy way that some aspects have been handled. I found the directions, too, to be vague about the positioning of certain parts; I had to double-and triple-check references in some cases to make sure that a certain piece was correctly positioned. And then again, there are those inexplicable two-piece tracks...

Geez, if you're doing the M103A2, I wonder how bad the one that I have--the first one--is? That "A2" was supposed to be corrected and improved.....hmmm??

I'm still waiting for a response from my Dad, Wayne. All I know is that I was born in the Bamberg Army Hospital in '75. I'm not sure what base that's close to or what AR/AD was around that area... yet.

I know we were there in that time frame though and he commanded an M-60. I'll get back to you on that when I know more. :)

Back to you, Karl.  :)

3-33AR was in 1st Bde at Kirch-Goens and 1-32AR was in 3d Bde in Friedburg. Don't know where the 2 1AD units were. 

My college roommate the last 2 years went artillery and i went armor. We got to Germany about the same time and he ended up with the FA Bn in Friedburg which was a 30 min drive from me in KG aka the rock. small world.

Okay, that's some better progress than I'm making. The inserts are brilliant and I like how you do your weld seams. They look very clean like they should.

I do have a little more of a peg to work with on the M-103 though. Yours truly are just stubs. What concerns me more is the way they have the bogies attached. It doesn't seem like they will hold up to any kind of pressure. So I'm afraid that if I were to apply too much force while stretching on the tracks I may knock a few off. I'm leaving off the drive sprockets till final assembly due to that concern.

There are no pegs for the drive sprockets on the M-103 either, but they do have something to glue the sprockets to and not a big hole to cover up. That has got to be a huge error in either engineering or some left out part that should be there. Heck if I know which.

OK, almost ready for  paint here...here's the work so far....basically a bunch of little details that I"m adding here and there.

First, the welds on the turret front were really kinda anemic in my view, so I added some .020 strip on them.

I used my $14.00 AC Moore pyrogravure that I bought years ago to add weld marks. This is basically a low-heat "Stencil cutter" that I found. If you're interested in one, here's the link to my posting about it:

Pyrogravure

Before I dressed them up by filing and sanding, they looked like this:

Two of the apertures on the turret are blank inside, when they're plainly filled with...things.

I made an insert for the one on the left of the gun.

ANd the one in the night vision scope or whatever that is..

Ya know, nothing complex, but enough to make an impression rather than just empty voids.

This kinda annoyed me. The attachment points for the sprocket and idlers are so flimsy that I couldn't even think of fitting the tracks because the darned things won't even stay on the mounts! The sprockets, especially--I can't believe this weak engineering mistake here--attach with no actual peg at all. (left) You are just supposed to glue them onto the projecting plastic cones there! The "post" sticking out of the other side on the right sprocket here is actually supposed to be on the outside!

It honestly looks to me as if this is some kind of ommission or error in the instructions--I mean, it wouldn't be the first time for Dragon, would it? I couldn't find any actual pegs, however, to put in it  And here is the tiny attachment point for the idlers!

SO I had to fix these. I drilled out the posts for the idlers and inserted posts that would fit into the smaller hole inside the idler's original hole, augmenting the strength of the attachment. Yes--I did straighten that one on the right there..

The sprockets were more tricky. The hole in the sprcket proper and the hole in the mounting posts are of diffrent diamters, I had to cut a post-- 1.0 styrene rod, and then cut a piece of styrene tube in half with a micro saw blade and then paste those semi-circles around the post, wait for them to harden under the glue, and sand them down to the correct size. What an annoyance, honestly.

.And it's almost ready for primer and paint..the only other hing I"m going to do is to add some twisted wire "chains" to the smoke dischargers. I should have some primer on by tomorrow night..

Stay tuned, guys....almost ready for paint!

the doog

Rob Gronovius

those big boxes on the US version are weights added to compensate for the lighter mild steel that the prototypes were made of.

None of the surviving American versions are the same, so it would be hard to produce an American version. I plan on making mine into what I think and American tank would have looked like if it had been placed into production. Among the options is if it received a different main gun like a standard US 105mm or the German 120mm we use today.

To deal with the back deck, I'm thinking of seeing if the engine deck details from an M60 will work. But this might be a bridge too far.

Rob,

I honestly think that is a brilliant idea! Kinda like "Panzer 46", this site that I go on that has all these conceptual tanks and imaginaive pairings of different turrets, guns, etc. I'm jealous I didn't think of it first!

I didn't know that about the boxes on the side, Thanks!

More along the lines of a "Team Yankee" concept. I've done it a few times before, once with a Sgt York turret on an Abrams hull that I call the "Sergeant Major York."

Carl, it's not a bad kit, it's just rather poorly engineered in my opinion. See my update for some of the problems... Good to see you back on the forum and active!

Russ, that's cool that your Dad worked on that! Wow--did he take any "secret photos"?!?

Rob Gronovius

those big boxes on the US version are weights added to compensate for the lighter mild steel that the prototypes were made of.

None of the surviving American versions are the same, so it would be hard to produce an American version. I plan on making mine into what I think and American tank would have looked like if it had been placed into production. Among the options is if it received a different main gun like a standard US 105mm or the German 120mm we use today.

To deal with the back deck, I'm thinking of seeing if the engine deck details from an M60 will work. But this might be a bridge too far.

I honestly think that is a brilliant idea! Kinda like "Panzer 46", this site that I go on that has all these conceptual tanks and imaginaive pairings of different turrets, guns, etc. I'm jealous I didn't think of it first!

I didn't know that about the boxes on the side, Thanks!

M. Brindos

Wayne, it sounds like you and my Father may have served in the same unit at the same time. I'll have to ask him about it to confirm, but I believe he was also in the 3-33 AR. He commanded the same tank, I know that much.

that would be freaky. there were only 4 battalions of them in europe; 3-33 and 1-32 in 3AD and 2 in 1AD. I was there '75 thru half of '78. had the 4.2" mortar platoon the last year so didn't hang out as much with the DATs (Dumb Ass Tankers). my tank was C-16.

Gamera,

I have not had this problem yet. So far the turret clears the engine deck perfectly, but I have not started building the turret yet. I just have the two pieces sitting on each other so far. But aside from the missing Instructions for the Searchlight mounting hardware I have not had any fit issues at all.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed now that you guys are mentioning I may start seeing them.

Wayne, it sounds like you and my Father may have served in the same unit at the same time. I'll have to ask him about it to confirm, but I believe he was also in the 3-33 AR. He commanded the same tank, I know that much.

I was in an M60A2 unit (3-33AR) in Germany in the 70s. We transitioned to A2s in August 1975. The 152 Gun/Missile system we had was originally designed for the US MBT-70. Slow main gun round, IIRC 2850 fps and the Shillelagh was guided like a TOW using an IR beam instead of a wire.We had the first passive sights and the tank commander had a POWER cupola stabilized independent of the main gun..

can't wait for someone to come out with a good M60A2 so i can build my tank.

Karl, have fun, looks like you're deep into the foibles of the Dragon "Black Death" series......

This one would be a perfect companion to the nuked Roosky tank you did a while ago, since they both got nixed for production due to tech issues.

My dad was involved in armor production on the MBT70 program, which meant we moved around the country a lot.....