M8 Armored Car in the Ardennes Winter WIP 7/27/08 *Complete* Figs IP

Wow, I'm impressed...good interior...that Tamiya kit is a dream to build...gonna really keep my eyes on this one...your ref shows a VERY complete and neat application of whitewash...I built the Tamiya one as well a while back and set it in an Ardennes dio:

Gonna add the snowchains???

Manny, I love that dio, and I certainly dont want to hijack or sidetrack this thread, but I couldnt work out the storyline.  Abandoned US vehicles with no battle damage, no signs of their crew (alive or dead)  Obviously the German troops have moved into the sector ?  or are they lost ? 

PS:  Redleg, that M8 is looking great- luv that interior !

Redleg12, so far your Greyhound looks fantastic, keep us posted!!

Manstein, that dio looks phenomenial!! Especially love the look of the snow, where it's thawing on the edges.

 Hi Redleg,

 Some how I don't think smaller means simpler and easier The interior looks great. The tire chains sound neat. Keep postin.

 Best regards,

Yo Michael,

  If you need some insight as to how I did my chains, look on the last page of Panzerbait. I added a mini-toot on how I did it.

 I'm interested in how this is gonna go as I'm notorious for loving 'em ragged.

Great start........

Helpful suggestion on my part............ (you know... my two cents worth)  With all that snow there'll be mud and with all that mud and dampness from the GI's boots, it'd be pretty nasty inside. 

                                                                                         Disastermaster
 

Wirraway

...but I couldnt work out the storyline.  Abandoned US vehicles with no battle damage, no signs of their crew (alive or dead)  Obviously the German troops have moved into the sector ?  or are they lost ?

Not that much of a stretch if you think about it.  Some U.S. units were caught completely unaware by the German push, like the 106th Infantry Division.  Over the summer of 1944 the 106th Division, then at Camp Atterbury, Indiana, was filled with replacements from other training units, the Army Air Corps, Army Specialized Training Program (ASTP), Coast Artillery, Anti-Aircraft Artillery units and others, with no combat experience.

In October 1944 the Division shipped overseas to England for a brief period of training, then shipped across the channel to the LeHavre, France area. On 11 December 1944 the men of the 106th replaced the U.S. 2nd Division on line. The 2nd Division, in the Schnee Eifel area of the German/Belgium border east of St.Vith, Belgium, was replaced man for man and gun for gun and the entire division was greener than Kermit the Frog, especially the Officers and NCOs. Add to THAT Charlie Foxtrot, at the time the 106th Infantry Division caught the brunt of the German Offensive on 16 December 1944 they:

• Had been on the Continent only 15 days.
• Had been in place in a "quiet" sector for orientation.
• Had the youngest troops (average age - 22) of any American Division on line.
• Had been in their new positions only five days.
• Had no prior warning that the Germans were going to attack.
• Occupied a front line that covered over three times the normal distance.   The normal coverage for a division on the front line was approximately five miles. The 106th's positions extended for 21 miles and jutted out, like a thumb, into Germany in a salient extending approximately 7 miles.

Not a good way for a division to start the war... 

disastermaster wrote:

Yo Michael,   If you need some insight as to how I did my chains, look on the last page of Panzerbait. I added a mini-toot on how I did it.                                                                                          Disastermaster

 Hey Disastermaster,

That tutorial you did was with those cool tire chains that were removable. That toot was a hoot.

Best Regards

Manny = Thanks for the comments. I remember that dio and loved it. Yes the M8 is rather clean, no real chipping which is why I like this one. Plus nice deep snow...fun with tires and making snow fenderburgs!!

Wirraway - Thanks for looking in

MG Mike - Thanks for your comments

Biffa - It's always a pleasue to have you comment. Went through your thread prior to this build. Still peaking back as I go.

Mobious - True, but at least the Tamiya kit is a good fit and not a lot of putty work...

As an engineer the old saying of cup half empty or full is answered with you cup was twice as big as you needed...now thats smaller!!

Bill - Thanks for your comments and for looking

Disastermaster = OK....I'm gonna level with you....I was a BAD BOY and cheated....I took the easy way out....the dark side force of buying something was too strong...I have Tank Workshop tires with chains.....

I know, I should be beaten....BUT....I love your toot and will use the chain in the future.

Hopefully you still respect me in the morning!!

As far as the wet inside and boots, I agree...stuck with dirty....when finished the interior view is limited....I did not want to go too nuts on the interior with puddles and snow....but I agree with your comment

And Thanks for you comment and looking.

Hans-von-Hammer - Thanks for looking and you comments

Rounds Complete!!

Marc - Yep....white....with all the snow on the ground in the photo...there was no chance for dirt. I will need to paint lightly so the OD shows through and not PURE WHITE. You know....there is always a point when a vehicle is white washed, when it is clean and not full of scratches. I have the photo!!!!!!!! Oh yes...we will have the rusty blacked exhaust and dirty air intake in the rear. We will allso have some outside stowage in the rear. But, I thought to do something different.....all white snow.....all white vehicle. How much purer can you get?????

Thanks for your comments.

Rounds Complete!!

Very neat!  And with winter just around the corner too.    The interior sure looks great and it would be a shame to cover it up.

I like white washed vehicles, can't wait to see more!  The pictures are so clear too!

redleg12 wrote:

Marc - Yep....white....with all the snow on the ground in the photo...there was no chance for dirt. I will need to paint lightly so the OD shows through and not PURE WHITE. You know....there is always a point when a vehicle is white washed, when it is clean and not full of scratches. I have the photo!!!!!!!! Oh yes...we will have the rusty blacked exhaust and dirty air intake in the rear. We will allso have some outside stowage in the rear. But, I thought to do something different.....all white snow.....all white vehicle. How much purer can you get????? Thanks for your comments. Rounds Complete!!

Manny - Exactly... the star could be weathered. yes...a nice circle around the star. The vehicle #s look like the were quickly masked. The area in the wheel wells also appears to be masked with OD in the upper area. Also the variation in coverage of the white wash.

Thanks for the cocurrance and observation. As I said...I wanted different, I think I found it.

Rounds Complete!!

Moving along on my M8, here is my current progress.

Mounted the upper hull and added kit details

Now it was time for some PE

Assembled the turret, cleaned up some pin marks and added PE ammo racks

With the main body finished, it was time to paint the underside. Since this this will stay green a prime coat and a coat of Tamiya OD. Then weathered with an oil wash and then some MIG pigments.

Painted the inside of the turret with Tamiya Flat White, detailed the turret gears with Alclad Steel, and seats with Tamiya Black. Then gave an oil wash for weathering.

I finished assembly of the main body by adding the front fenders and lower hatches. We are now ready to prime and base coat with OD

Other details coming together such as the 37mm gun, the M2 50 cal, ammo into the racks on the turret and tires cleaned, primed, painted black, rims in OD, and chains in Alclad Steel.

As a note on the reference photo, the rear fender covers are removed. Also the 50 cal mount is not standard but appears to be welded brackets to hold the 50 on the turret front (ahhh...some scratch building to come).

This version also does not have the middle fenders but has the mine cages.

Well that where we are today. Thanks for looking in. All comments welcome

Rounds Complete!!

I think the interior beneath and inside the turret was OD.......only the frontal area in white, but with the whitewash theme, I can't be sure.

                                                                                    DISASTERMASTER 

Marc - I'll be there...if you don't want my M8 I'll shoot my Pershing missile at them   Thanks

Disaster - Well you are right and you are wrong. I checked Osprey M8/M20. Some photos, like page 8, show white turret interior and white ring. Others show, like page 9, show green turret and white ring. And yet some others look all green.

I think the only incorrect combo is white turret and green ring!

Besides....it's a winter scene

Thanks for looking and commenting

Rounds Complete!!

 A fine looking project that's coming along nicely. Is the PE, part of the Verlinden upgrade or an additional set? Just curious.

 Thanks Hans, for the brief informative history on the 106th. I think those are some of the same reasons the German High Command had decided to launch operation sickle cut thru the exact same terrain 4 years earlier, with completely different results. 

 Best Regards,

Mobious - Yes...Some of the PE is from the Verlinden set. I also have the Eduard PE set. Eduard is better for the straps and tiedowns (yes they are coming) and the ammo racks. The Verlinden set has some other items which go with the resin parts. You can most likely get away with just the Verlinden set and make some of your own small detail. I had both....It makes things eaiser. And just think of all the leftover PE to use on another kit!

Manny - Thanks. I'm in bending heaven

I'm getting worried. I had picked up some Jaguar figures to go with the kit but their fit in the model is bad. The driver is cut off at the waist so he sits too low...need to add a butt. Even with that, he is too wide to fit through the hatch. He is also an armless figure but you can see in to the steering wheel...not good

The chief looks fine but the gunner is also cut at the waist. If I have him stand in the turret I need to add his lower half.

Lastly, it will be much more difficult to veiw the interior with the turret and driver side filled with a figure(s).

Any suggestions from the "figure master" would be appreciated

And again...Thanks

Rounds Complete!! 

Hans von Hammer wrote:

...Some U.S. units were caught completely unaware by the German push...

It would be safe to say all the allied units were unaware of the push. 

Manny - I agree, I will try to work somthing outside the model. As for the figures, I will photo them to show you for my next update. The figure that comes with the kit is fine. The problem figures were the Jaguar US tankers in winter....I guess all the extra clothes made them too bulky.

Thanks again for your help

Easy Mike & Specter - Thanks for looking and for your comments

Rounds Complete!!

SMJ - Thanks...No brush for this except white oil wash. Saw your toot a while back. I'll look it up again. This M8 is fresh and white also all snow on the ground so there wont be too much ware. Dirt and grime by the air intakes and exhaust. Planning on doing light coats of really thinned white until I get the effect of the photo.

Thanks for the help and the comments.

Bill - It's like an old friend dropping by the house. Yes...I agree with Manny and you. The figures will be outside. Digging through the stash and looking for "the right bodies". By my next post I hope I have some inseration.

Thanks for looking and and for your comments.

Rounds Complete!! 

redleg12 wrote:

SMJ - Thanks...No brush for this except white oil wash. Planning on doing light coats of really thinned white until I get the effect of the photo.

redleg12: respectively...NO!!!  You CANNOT get the look of that photo with an oil wash.  PLEASE, fire-up the air brush, thin the paint, and then apply it like a white/heavy dose of post shading!!!  Do SEVERAL coats if needed...again, don't WIMP OUT, trust me on this one...put the paint on and THEN add the "whitewash" touches...(see my toot'), I PROMISE it works!!!

Here's a small portion of the toot' that applies, no dis-respect...just hope to help a fellow modeler:

Adding white "clouds":

Using flat white thinned 30% paint, 70% thinner I airbrushed white to all the exterior of the tank:

The airbrush is set as if you were painting fine lines, you want to have maximum control to where the paint is being applied.  Refer to your reference photos if you have them, if not, add more paint to where the crew would NOT wear the white off and focus on the center of each "panel" of the tank:

Don't worry if the paint runs a bit because that would be what the whitewash would do in real life.  Also don't be afraid to hit those un-worn areas several times because the impact of the white will be toned down in the next step.  Don't forget to spray the road wheels too!  Note:  vary the amount of white as you move around the vehicle, you might even need to do a "dusting" of white to ensure ALL surfaces at least have a misting of white paint.

SMJ - Thanks for the help but you totally misunderstood what I was saying or maybe I was not clear.

ABSOLUTLY I will be airbushing. In my case, Tamiya Flat White in thin coats building up the white color with cloud areas. And yes, I intended to thin the paint in the area you mentioned in your toot (30/70)

AFTER the base white color is on I will then touch the model with a BRUSH using Winston white oils for highlights as part of weathering, similar to your toot.

I have no intention of brusching on the white paint. If you look at the picture, it would appear the whitewash was sprayed on. It is almost even and does not appear to be a "mop" job

And trust me, I not afrad of paint...anything can be fixed. I hope I'm clear and thanks for the concern and help!!

Rounds Complete!!

Mike, it´s looking great, as I would have suspected!

Hey, you might want to try a "Hairspray whitewash" on this baby, like I did for my Nomad junker? Might be a real opportunity to embrace a new technique--and in truth, it´s simple really!

I should be able to catch the finished build when I get home in 9 days or so? I´ll check in b4 that if I can....looking fine, though!

SMJ - I know....I may have caused some heart problems. Thanks for the help and consideration

Doog - What in the wide world of sports are you doing on the forum. Thanks for the comments. Say hello to Alice for me....Last time I saw him, I lost some brain cells at his concert in MSG. That was a long time ago in a place far far away!

Thanks again

Agentg - OK...I'm no biffia. Last project lasted 4+ months. As I said in the beginning, wanted something simple this time. Plus, my secret is I am on vacation this week so I'm getting further than normal.

I know how you feel. I could not keep up with the likes of biffia or wing nut. Just got lucky this time.

Thanks for the comments

Rounds Complete!!

At the end of this holiday weekend, here is what I have completed

I moved from the main body to the turret. First I painted the two types of ammunition for the main gun. The colors for the shells are High Explosive, which is a yellow/green shell and armor piercing which is black. Then the rack clips on the PE strip were painted white and weathered. The strips put around the shell and then the shells into the rack.

I will admit a month or so ago I invested in an assortment of Alclad metal finish paints. They are a bit expensive but in every case I have found they are worth it over any other metal finish I have tried, including Tamiya, Humbrol and MM. Their pale gold does a nice brass shell

After I took care of the ammunition, it was on to scratch building the M2 mount. Thinking somewhat as they would, I took a ring top section which hold the yoke and put that in place the used some Evergreen angle stock for the reinforcing strips.

The turret was now ready for the main gun and mantlet. Then I stuffed the hatch openings with tissue and gave everything their final coat of Tamiya OD.

After allowing things to dry, I went back into the spray booth and with a 70% thinner 30% Tamiya Flat White, and began the white wash. After spraying was complete, I removed the tissues and the tape used for masking the star areas and the vehicle bumper numbers.

SMJ....Yes I air brushed it..LOL...Thanks again

Well everything is drying. Lots of details to add when I get back to the bench, including the 30 cal the M2 (both painted with Alclad Steel...perfect color) plus lots of little details to be mounted.

Well that where I am today. Thanks for looking in. All comments welcome

Rounds Complete!!

 Hey Redleg12,

 That's lookin good, The white wash looks neat. The ammo looks the part. Very nice metal finish. Gonna look into the Alclad metal finishes, for myself. Thanks for the post.

 Best Regards,

Love the little details that you've added, looking sharp. The sprayed on white coat looks the part! I was going to suggest adding the gradient ring numbers to the inside base of the turret but I think you've already glued the base and turret together? I have the gradient ring as a PDF that I used to print my own decal and add when I did this one way back when. It's available to you or anyone else that wants to take advantage of it, here's the link:

http://www.bpmodels.net/Model/Decal.pdf

Manny - Thanks for the comments

Mobious - Thanks, glad to have been of some help. Like I said, love the Alclad paint. Biggest plus is it works well in an Air Brush and cleans up well after use.

Bill - Great minds think alike. No, I did not final glue the turret. With the white wash work, I wanted to wash the model whole but small thing like the 30 cal could not be installed until after the wash so the turret and ring were only dry fit.

I was going to add a few more details and was going to try to create the ring markings using Autocad. You just saved me a bunch of hours at the computer. I will download from you site tonight. Thanks for the help and your comments.

Rounds Complete!!

redleg12 wrote:

NICELY DONE!!!

I forgot if you said if you were going to keep the white wash like this or not. Either way you are going to have it it looks great so far.

Looks GREAT with the whiite wash on!

Can't wait to see it fnished.

SMJ - Considering the help you gave, your comment is is GREATLY APPRECIATED!!

Specter - I was not going to show a lot of ware based on the photo at the beginning of the WIP which shows a fairly well intack wash. May put in some scratches etc., but thats about it. Will do some washes to tone town the blue/white color of the wash and highlight some details.

Stick Man - Thanks for the comments

Rounds Complete!!

Hey redleg, been busy getting caught up on missed posts and I just finished with this one.  Fantastick work on that M8 dude!  I love the white camo you're doing with this one...its not often seen!  The interior looks fabulous.  Too bad we're not doing the "Winter Warriors II" GB, this would fit right in!!  Funny to see a winter whitewashed vehicle in the middle of summer....its 90+ outside right now!!  Anyway, I'll be keeping my eyes on this thread....I'm dying to see how this armored car turns out!!

Bufflehead - Thanks for the comments. I thought I would do something different with the M8. It also seemed nice to do a winter build in July!!

thanks again

Rounds Complete!!

redleg12 wrote:

SMJ - Considering the help you gave, your comment is is GREATLY APPRECIATED!

No prob' redleg, and thanks...by the way, did you spray that white OVER the green?...I expect you did...that's tough spraying over a perfectly good paint job isn't it?  I have a half track I'm starting that I plan on painting german gray...post-shading, the works, then I'll hit it with the white camo'.  You loose the work below, but you gain experience with the airbrush/technique too!!!

Redleg: Great work on the 37mm PE ammo racks.  I got started with mine and the Eduard set but got stuck there.  Seeing your work motivates me to try to restart mine.  One thing I've noticed on others' builds of the M8 is low-hanging stowage off the turret.  Note that the crews had to deftly stow stuff as to not interfere with the traverse of the turret against the drivers' hood.

WBill: great PDF file! 

SMJ - Yep, Sprayed the white over a nice OD paint job but to get the bleed of color its the best way. Also if you want scratches, the tip of the #11 blade lightly will scratch the white down to the OD. If you want wash ware, 600 grit sanding gives the ware down to the OD. Experimented with this on my paint cow. Don't know how much I will use considering my subject photo, but though that would help.

Thanks again.

Roy - The rack and ammo is a . What I found is bend the rack as required. Roll using a dental pick. Glue one side and let it set, the roll in the turret, add glue to the other side and use the pick to hold in place until set. That should get it flat to the wall of the turret

The retainer clips I cut, used the pick to roll and glued to the round. Once set, using forceps to help insert the round and then used a drop of glue on the bottom to hold.

Everything was pre painted. Being anal and slow plus some...how the hell am I going to do this time, all in, paint to complete install was ~4 hours. It's a pain but looks great when finished.

Thanks for the comments

And yes thanks Bill for the decal. It does look great. It's a definite for me

Rounds Complete!!

Specter -  Not a problem, I know what it is like. I feel like I can never catch up on everthing here!!

Ron -Thanks for the comments and words of encouragement. Doing the little M8 and having last week off let me go at almost Ron speed . Its nice to do a simpler kit though you start adding everything and well...

I'm getting anxious to see it done myself. Thanks for looking in.

Rounds Complete!!

Another great looking build from you.  Sorry I just caught it now.  Love the white wash and the look of the ammo.  Will have to remmember the paint that you used.  Sorry your vacation is over by now.  But getting a lot done during that is the why I was able to get my rammtiger build so quickly as well.

Keep it UP and always enjoying your builds.

It was back to work this week so progress slowed but at least I am far enough along to see the light!!

Bill was so gracious to give his decal pattern to Roy and I so Bill, this is for you, after applying your decal to the turret interior.

Here is a view of the whole model with the decal. Also added the lower front hatch handle to each hatch. The hatch is from the Verlinden set and the handle is 14 gauge wire.

The turret installed. Drilled the antenna mounts for .020 brass wire antenna and installed the mounts. The antenna and tie downs will wait until after we install the tires to keep from breaking them. Also began doing some scratch work on the white wash

Here is a closer view through the turret with the 30 cal and sight installed. Also installed (can't see in the photo) 30 cal ammo belt to the ammo can. This shot gives a better view of the "scratching" in the turret area.

Time for markings! I used Archer transfers and the wet transfer paper. The unit and vehicle number are the same as my opening photo. Front view:

Rear view

Now I mounted the tools. Their holders were the same "white" density as the vehicle but the tool was give a quick once coat. Looking at the photo of the real vehicle, it would appear this is what they did. Also added rear tie-down straps tied closed. Again looking at the photo of the real vehicle, they did not have any outside stowage but there is a dark spot which could be the straps.

I began to wash in the engine area with a grey wash to create shadows in the sunken areas of the engine covers

Using the same grey wash to highlight area like a black pin wash. Black would be too strong for the white finish.

After the grey wash, I created a rust/dirt wash with raw sienna and some MIG rust. I used this in the wheel wells for the dirt and rust "look"

With all the washes dry but needing set up, here is the finished look so far.

Well next its snow time! I'll be working on the wheels and the hopefully wrapping up the vehicle over the next week or so.

Thanks for looking in. All comments welcome

Rounds Complete!!

I realy like the shadowing afect around the engin covers.

GREAT work can't  wait to see more!

Marc - Yep, I'm hoping to bring snow to Danbury. Thanks

Stickman - Thanks for looking in and the comments

SMJ - On the forward end...call it turret forward I tend to agree. That's why I stopped and moved to the tires for now to get some opinions and decide myself. The back I have some scratchs on the side boards and other things to "break up" the white, I may "mess" up the front a little with some more scratched or a bit more wash. In general I agree.

The snow (fresh fallen) will be Woodland Scenics. I was going to try a light satin spray to try and give a twinkle effect to the powder. For the "compressed" snow on the tires, in the fender wells and tire tracks, I was going to use sheet rock compond mixed with white glue to form what is needed. Coat with a clear, wash to "yellow or dirty" the color sloghtly and then give a coat of satin and gloss mixed.

I will be setting up some experments this week so hopefully I can apply the snow to the tires and wells and once "weathered", assemble to the model this weekend.

Thanks for looking, your comments, and all your help.

Bodge - Thanks for looking in and the comments

Rounds Complete!!

Bill - Thanks for your comment and especially your help with the decal

Manny - Thanks for you comments.

Actually it is not in degrees but in mils. The graduation is mils left or right and to the rear (half circle) ending in 32 (for 3200.....6400 mils in a circle).

Thanks again

Rounds Complete!!

Doc - I am humbled that you are inspired and thank you for your comments,

Rounds Complete!!

redleg12 wrote:

SMJ - ...For the "compressed" snow on the tires, in the fender wells and tire tracks, I was going to use sheet rock compond mixed with white glue to form what is needed. Coat with a clear, wash to "yellow or dirty" the color sloghtly and then give a coat of satin and gloss mixed.

redleg12: Try using some watered down elmers mixed with the Woodland Scenics snow for this effect.  I used plaster (older build, not my SU-122) on tracks and it worked OK but the snow takes the mixes well and will give you a more realitic look.  You made need to apply it in coats but it WILL work.  The snow will also absorb your mud and grime better than plaster, and looks very realistic:

I'll keep following along...

SMJ - We keep thinking the same way...somewhat! I tried a test last night of the plaster on a kit wheel (using resin wheels for the build so the kit wheels are available). While it looks ok, the problem is the variation in color from the WS snow. I was giong to try a mix of the snow and elmers tonight. I may also try a mix of the plaster and WS snow, This would be an effort for in the wheel wells and compressed material. On the wheel wells, I wanted to make some small "fenderburgs" (that built up compressed snow that stick to the fenders).  

Two more test wheels tonight!!

Thanks for the thoughts and the help. I appreciate you keeping up and lending comments. It is the true reason for this forum.

Rounds Complete!! 

redleg12 wrote:

SMJ - We keep thinking the same way...somewhat!...

Hey, doesnt the saying go, "great minds think alike"?

redleg12 wrote:

SMJ - I was going to try a mix of the snow and elmers tonight. I may also try a mix of the plaster and WS snow, This would be an effort for in the wheel wells and compressed material. On the wheel wells, I wanted to make some small "fenderburgs" (that built up compressed snow that stick to the fenders).

Stick...with the elmers, IMO.  Try varying the water/elmers ratio.  You may even want to let the elmers/water/snow mix set-up a bit before applying it to the fenders, that way it will be stickier.  I KNOW the exact look you're going for on the fenders...and it will look sweet if you can pull it off!  That Woodlands stuff is great!!!

redleg12 wrote:

Painted the inside of the turret with Tamiya Flat White, detailed the turret gears with Alclad Steel, and seats with Tamiya Black. Then gave an oil wash for weathering.

Redleg,

I've recently played around with the Alclad metallics.  Heard that they required a black primer coat for best effect and that they needed to be sprayed; they don't brush well.  Based on my limited experience so far, I'm not sure that I agree.  What type of prep work did you do before using the Alclad Steel?

Don

SMJ - Thanks, we will give it a test run tonight

Ron - Thanks for the comments and I agree THANKS BILL.

I wish we could set up an area to share things like custom decals. Bill saved me a BUNCH of time. I have some stuff for US howitzer ammunition I did. I'm sure there are others. If they were all in one place like a catalog, it would give help to others. As long as they were copyright free ware, so no one tries to make money on someone elses work.

Pordoi - As far as the Alclad paints:

• Brushing - Since it is really set up to be sprayed, it is very thin and settles fast. You need to shake, do some painting, shake, do some more, and so on. 
• Prep - The chrome and polished aluminum require gloss black prep. The steel is dark to begin with so just used Tamiya OD as the base. Two brush coats seem to get the desired effect. 
• Spray - Since this a thinner coat than brush, it is more important to follow the Alclad instructions for base coat. Since it is so thin, lower your air pressure to the AB and try some test shots. Also you need to ventalate as the solvent smell is tremendous from Alclad when spraying.

Hope this helps

Rounds Complete!! 

RBaer - I thank you for your comments and I am happy that you want to use this as a guide. That make all the effort of doing a build log WIP worth while.

I love to get comments to learn and to teach. The sharing of ideas such as SMJ and I trading thoughs on snow helps me or Bill and his decal which was a huge help. More than this exchange helping me is some of the other things I did and these exchanges helping others

THAT'S WHAT THIS FORUM IS REALLY ABOUT!!

As the old Army saying goes, "cooperate and graduate"....we all get better togeather

Thanks RBaer

Rounds Complete!! 

Well said, redleg 12. That's the point of all this, isn't it? My builds have gotten
(in my mind) quite a bit better since I started hanging out here. I even enjoy seeing AI's builds..... But seriously, folks, it's the free sharing of information that makes this forum so rewarding to me personally.

RBaer wrote:

Well said, redleg 12. That's the point of all this, isn't it? My builds have gotten (in my mind) quite a bit better since I started hanging out here. I even enjoy seeing AI's builds..... But seriously, folks, it's the free sharing of information that makes this forum so rewarding to me personally.

Knowledge that is not shared is useless. I've never understood those who think that hoarding it or locking it away in an exclusive forum or repository is the best use of it, especially when they had to come by it through secondary means for the most part themselves.

redleg12 wrote:

I love to get comments to learn and to teach. The sharing of ideas such as SMJ and I trading thoughts on snow helps me or Bill and his decal which was a huge help. More than this exchange helping me is some of the other things I did and these exchanges helping others THAT'S WHAT THIS FORUM IS REALLY ABOUT!! As the old Army saying goes, "cooperate and graduate"....we all get better together

redleg12: Well said, my friend...glad to help others, as they have helped me

  Mike just got done catching up on this wip from the begining and man this is a great looking build. Everything looks perfect. Any chance we might be seeing this in Danbury? 

RBaer, Bill and SMJ - Thanks for the support. All three of you (and there are others) emulate the learning/teaching role of this forum. I'm humbled by your agreement with my statements. It's people like you that make this the fun place it is for armor modeling.

I am on other forums also, like many of you. But I have not found the "brotherhood" there is here in the FSM armor forum. It is a testament to you and all those involved.  

Panzerguy - I hope so. The vehicle is just about finished except for "snow weathering". Then there is the base and lastly some figures. If I get tight on time, I may forgo the figures for Danbury.

But yes, the room is reserved, and the plan is to bring this (along with some others) to Danbury (fingers and toes crossed).

I am looking forward to meeting you and some of our other forum friends there, hopefully starting Friday evening.

Rounds Complete!! 

It's 95 degrees outside but there is a blizzard on my work bench.

I had a lot of input (and I am thankful for all)....and there have been toots in the past (I know Doog), but like Frank Sinatra said..."I did it my way"...so here is the winter weathering.

First in areas where snow would build or to fill in tire treads, I used some sheet rock spackle compound mixed with some white glue (90/10 mix).

This is the fender wells

These are the tires

To seal the spackle and make the areas look wet, I coated the tires, model underside and fender wells with some Model Master Acryl Satin Finish. After drying I began the snow. To apply the snow in areas I wanted, I used a #5 brush, dip in landscape cement and then dip into a tray with some Woodland Scenics Snow. The brush would become covered with the snow and when it was applied moved with the consistency of "slush" (no pun). After applications in the wheel wells and tires: I also made a wash from the clear to give the wet effect to the lower half or the vehicle.

Wheel wells and underside 

Tires

Once all the snow set up, it was time to mount the tires. I also mounted the antennas and the antenna tie downs.

Here is a look with the original picture

The only thing left to mount is the M2 which is just about ready, so I moved on to the base.

After cutting a piece of Oak, putting through the router table for a nice edge, one coat of stain, 2 coats of urethane and mask after completely dry. Then I cut some thin Styrofoam for depth and measured and cut tire ruts into it. The Styrofoam is mounted using Styrofoam spray contact cement.

Once the contact cement set up, I mixed up a batch of Celluclay tinted white and applied over the Styrofoam.

At this point I am waiting for the clay to dry, so I am going to take my parka off and head to the pool.

Next week should wrap it up except for figures. Manny, I'm still playing with that!!

Thanks for looking in. All comments welcome

Rounds Complete!!

Wow your snow efect is superb! I'm going to remember the white glue/sheet rack spackle idea.

redleg12 wrote:

 
    Man, those wheels really add the life! 

Stick man - If you use the pre-made stuff, don't use it real wet. It should be dry to the consistancy of play-dough. Mix in the glue and use a small spatula to apply. If you need to keep some use an old pill bottle with strech wrap betwwen the cap and bottle.

Have fun with it.

Disatermaster - Glad you like them. I like the way they turned out also. The combination of the plaster which gives the sense of packed snow in the treads and the WS snow with the lighter snow hanging on to the edges and chains.

Thanks for looking and commenting!

Rounds Complete!!

redleg12: Well done, sir...well done .  Don't forget to dirty that snow on the undercarriage a bit.  Even if it's fresh snow you're depicting, there would have probably been some old snow still wedged in the corners that was dirty.  Maybe even add some more old, dirty snow wedged deep in some areas, the contrast adds realism...

I'm going to use that foam technique in the future...great idea!

Bill - Jingle Bells in July....Hummm.

The styrofoam cuts down on the weight, gives a nice flat surface, but with the cuts, allows depth for the tire tracks.

Hopefully the blizzard will finish up this week, now that I have thawed out....Brrrrrr.

Thanks for looking and your comments

Manny - Not quite to the rims, similar to the actual photo. The nice thing with the styrofoam is after I "snow" the surface, I will take a depth measurement. If I need to build up, I will add a little more Celluclay to get the height I want. With the tacks cut in the existing cut, it will give something for the new clay to stick to and I will just roll some new tracks.

Thanks for the comments.

SMJ - I hear you on the "dirty" snow. I'm not going to go too dirty, again looking at the picture even though it is B&W, lots of fresh powder....not too much dirt. I will give a final look once I put the ground work and vehicle all togeather and see how everything looks.

I may at least use a "small" amount of MIG pigments on the "fenderburgs" to get them a little bit of black/dirt.

As always, thanks for your comments, thoughts and recommendations. If I go forward with them of go another way...they are all looked at. The judgement is on the bench. Thanks

Rounds Complete!!

 Hey redleg12,

 That foam base is goona be cool. Can't wait to see the snow fly! I wonder if I should be making out my Christmas list.

 Santa'a other sled the "M8 Greyhound", Keep posting.

 Best Regards,

Mobious - Weather forecast....snow for this weekend!!

Thanks

Rounds Complete!!

BRRRRRRR...  It's getting cold in here.  Colder then a witches...... well... it's just cold

Looks great Mike.  I think I might try that base idea for my winter PZ IV 

Outstanding, Mike!!!!!!

This is coming along awesomely!

The base looks like it's gonna be a winner, too! It reminds me a little of the potting foam thing I did in my Field Kitchen dio! The Celluclay on top is a great idea! 

One thing I would recommend is to put the wheels on and sit that model in the groove real snugly until the celluclay dries enough to keep its' shape--you don't want to have an uneven sit there!

This is turning out so cool!  

Marc - The parka is on for the big snow!!  Thanks

Karl - Thanks for the comments. Since the sides of the grooves have only a thin layer of Celluclay, it was not a problem. Also the grooves are slightly bigger than the need to be and once the vehicle is placed I will backfill with snow for level and fill in. But your warning is well taken.

And yes, it is 1/2 inch potting foam from your favorite store....Michaels

I'm getting cold just thinking about it!!!!

Rounds Complete!

RBaer - Thanks for the comments

Rounds Complete!!

Well, the blizzard has passed. Here is the completed M8 in the Ardennes Winter.

Manny and Doog....please be kind....here is my first attempt at figures. I could not find any that seem to fit so these are the old Tamiya WWII tankers...not the best, then again as I said this is my first try

Do you guys think they will detract from the model??? Are they at least semi good enough to include?? And of course any help all you guys can give would be appreciated (I know the pics are not the best...first time photographing figs too!!)

All comments are appreciated and Thanks

Rounds Complete!!

Mike--awesome!---but it ain't finished yet, IMO!

I would like to see you take some base color, and drybrush/chip those grab handles, and think of the areas where the crews' climbing on the vehicle would necessarily rub off that whitewash. An overall "outlining" of the panel lines with the side of a wide.flat brush (kinda like a chipping effect?) would look cool too--the vehicle looks a little too pristine white for me....

It needs some very sparse vegetation sticking up through the snow--if you really look at snowy fields, you'll always see a stray blade of grass or twig sticking up. 

Your snow looks great! Deep, fluffy--but IMHO, uninteresting--too white and unbroken. Good and nice in real life, but for a diorama, not aesthetically the best choice, IMO.

Either that or a road sign to give it some sense of place.

The figures are not bad--the first one reminds me of John McCain! It would be better, IMO, to put them in the model because it wouldn't make much sense to have the vehicle just out there in the snow, unattended. You almost have to have figs in this one. If it was a tank, you could button it up, but not here.

I can't get over the fluffy snow! What is it exactly?  

  Redleg The M8 looks great. I would have given it a little more of a weathering job but thats me.

   As far as the figs go Dragon makes some that are much better looking than the Tamiya one's.Also Verlinden has a US tanker set in cold weather gear and a tanker conversion set with parts to assemble tankers in wet and cold weather gear.

   Looking foward to seeing this and youself at AMPS

the doog wrote:

Mike--awesome!---but it ain't finished yet, IMO! I would like to see you take some base color, and drybrush/chip those grab handles, and think of the areas where the crews' climbing on the vehicle would necessarily rub off that whitewash. An overall "outlining" of the panel lines with the side of a wide.flat brush (kinda like a chipping effect?) would look cool too--the vehicle looks a little too pristine white for me.... It needs some very sparse vegetation sticking up through the snow--if you really look at snowy fields, you'll always see a stray blade of grass or twig sticking up.  Your snow looks great! Deep, fluffy--but IMHO, uninteresting--too white and unbroken. Good and nice in real life, but for a diorama, not aesthetically the best choice, IMO. Either that or a road sign to give it some sense of place. The figures are not bad--the first one reminds me of John McCain! It would be better, IMO, to put them in the model because it wouldn't make much sense to have the vehicle just out there in the snow, unattended. You almost have to have figs in this one. If it was a tank, you could button it up, but not here. I can't get over the fluffy snow! What is it exactly?

Doog - As always I value your opinion. I'm not sure if you could see the wear marks from the other pic so...

As far as the figs in the vehicle, I have tried a few but they are all too "fat". Plus for the driver or asst, you need a full body, sitting with legs extended. I have looked but could not find any. Also felt if I clogged up the holes....you would not see the interior.

I know....to pristine

This photo was my guide. No grass showing....but I fully understand your opinion.

Snow is woodlands scenics snow.

Since, I build "the vehicle" and will have a scene to support (rather than no base or an all wood base) I guess I'll go with no figs and let the vehicle carry on its own. I know Doog but you are a great dio person where the scene carries the model.

If I was going to enter this in a dio catagory, I would filly agree with you. This would be in a vehicle catagory and I would hope (at least at an AMPS meet) the vehicle is what counts.

Thanks for your opinoin. It does help and please don't take my rant above the wrong way, just wanted to give you my thought when planning and executing this build. I have not put it in the cabinet yet.....I'll be thinking.

Hmmmmm...I'm rambling....

Panzerguy, I presume more weathering you were looking also for more wear and chips??

I have the Dragon set on order....arriving soon. I did get the Firestorm tankers in winter...too fat full body, half body driver does not work....3/4 body AG would be noticeable from above.

As I said after coming back to the hobby 3 years ago, these were my first attempt at figs. I'll keep plugging (though I don't think I could ever match the O-B-1 of figs...Manny). But that is the best part of this, I'll keep trying and collecting IMHO from everyone.  

Thanks for looking in and your comments.

Rounds Complete!!

You know me, I'm a weathering freak so this kind'a comes off looking really clean to me, however, some chips and mild weathering would add greatly to the interest factor.

  Doesn't take a thing from your abilities though, it's just the way you wanted it and that is what matters in the end. You've put a lot of thought/effort here and have come across with a real "build of a picture". 

                                                                DISASTERMASTER 

Well, Mike; I have to say that you really nailed the look of that photo you presented. It really is almost an exact replica of the scene.

Fair enough--hey, if you're happy with it, that's all that matters.

I'll just leave you with this thought--when I build a diorama, I always have the thought in the back of my mind that I never want to have to explain or justify the completed scene as it is portrayed--it should tell its own story. I always try to build and finish it to that end. Sometimes, things that translate perfectly in a photograph--where their authenticity cannot be denied--don't translate as well in "Art". Something to think about...and I hope it doesn't p*ss you off, because I really mean it in the most genuinely helpful way.

Karl - Let me first say P*ssed....Absolutely not!!!! It is this type of discussions that makes this forum great. It allows someone to learn and see various opinions.

As far as "justifying", no, what I was trying to express was my view....I "justified" this build when I began...not at the completion. Not being "mainstream" sometimes I feel I have to give a concept of where I am coming from.

For me it's not the destination, but the journey. I was thrilled to see the level of participation and comment on the "build" and details. The final completion is as you say a matter of "art". As an engineer and retired Army officer I tend more towards "reality" in my art. In that vein, yes, I followed the picture. But the great thing of this forum is to present multiple views and thoughts. This is what makes this great for a newbie who is trying to get ideas. IMO neither is wrong, just different.

If I was trying to create a build to get a BIS...yes I would go your route, I would further build a lot of German armor. The only BIS for me that counts is the felling I have at completion. When my models are in a show, it is for "show" and any award is nice extra. But for those who are into competition, and feel the "thrill of victory and the agony of defeat" I would agree with your route. It is more impressive to the judges.

I knew there would be a group of readers who would be looking for this to be a "chips ahoy" build. Many of the winter camo does look that way after extended use as I am sure if this vehicle survived, a few weeks later it looked that way too. As I have said many times, I am in the minority here. I build US and tend to build for experience or from historical photos.

I submit there is a difference from a diorama builder and an armor builder. The armor builder builds the vehicle, the diorama builder build a scene. You are a diorama builder who adds armor to the scene (or cars). It is the difference between hard rock and classical music, both art, both good but both different. Yet both sides can learn and teach the other to expand their horizons. In that respect, I have hoped I have learned from your "hard rock" and it has helped improved some of my "symphonies"

I also agree with you on the display as a vehicle should have grass, snow etc around it. There are many who build and don't mount or if they do use stained wood. This is a personal preference for me and for others I understand all the views. This is rock, country, jazz and classical. Again it is all art, but all different.

I greatly appreciate your comments and those of all of the members of this forum. I don't expect you all to agree....if you did, it would be boring. I always want comments, good or critical, its how I and others learn & teach. If I ever find myself getting P*ssed, it's time for a new hobby.

Sorry for the long and protracted answer but I though I need to fully explain so no one takes offense.

Disatermaster & Panzerguy - Thanks for looking and commenting...see above...but please always give me your comments. As I said, it's what make this group great.

Marc - Thanks, hopefully I will see you in Danbury!

Ogrejohn & Doc - Thanks

Rounds Complete!!

redleg12 wrote:

Marc - Thanks, hopefully I will see you in Danbury!

Oh Yeah... almost forgot about that 

Redleg,

I think you accomplished your desired objective here beautifully in replicating the finish in the photo in particular. I think the reason that some vegetation poking up through the snow would look right is because of how the "off road" nature the scene you've got looks/feels vs. what's in the photo. In the photo you see sparse trees off some distance because it's an actual road that's been partially cleared and so any vegetation would've been covered by that and the newly fallen snow. Just an observation on the differences and why the eye looks for something even when it's not there.

Fabulous job on replicating the snow effect all around, definitely a keeper.

Bill = Thanks for your comments and your keen observations.

Rounds Complete!!

Tigerman - Thanks for your comments.

For light reading, check this military report of the weather during the battle of the buldge.

http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA121480&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

During the early stages of the German advance the weather included some freeze and thaws which would have made it muddy. The weather changed on the 21 thru 22. Heavy snow and cold. On the 23 it cleared and stayed clear thru the 27. This vehicle would have been traveling on the 21 & 22 in the snow.

I don't know when the picture was taken or where but I cannot disagree that maybe later on it was full of mud though based on the report I included, temps were in the 20 degree F from the 21 through about Christmas.

I know....here I am with reality again...sorry, I like history

A model...like a picture is a snapshot in time. I have seen other shots like this of other vehicles in the snow without the mud bath.

But as stated above, I understand your opinion, accept it and as always thank you for it. even though were not all muddy I hope you enjoyed it just the same.

Rounds Complete!!

You can't argue with a clear pic for use as a reference...you are right about the weather...during the opening stages of the battle (particularly when the offense started) the ground did not have snow on it---it was frozen...Later, when the Germans were put on the defensive, there was planty of snow and this is what most folks think of when they hear "Battle of the Bulge"...I feel as though you pulled off replicating what you see in the pic very nicely...

Now whether it would be more interesting or not with a little more "wear and tear" is a matter of opinion, but it might stray from your goal which was to reproduce as best you could the image in the pic. I feel you did that extremely well...most "new" whitewash jobs are very stark (if this was actually a new one)...

As far as the figs, not bad for a first try...the rank insignia and colors look good for the most part--are those dry-transfers for the ranks? Try different colors for the faces to eliminate the one-dimensional look to the faces.  I work from dark to light, which means my base for flesh is usually raw umber and then lightened progressively w/ blending, etc...

Nice job!!!

Manny - Thanks for your comments and support on the build.

As for the figs, the patches and rank were Verlinden decals, eyes were Archer dry tranfer. The trick on the face painting is appreciated. As I said these were the first figs for me, and they were the old Tamiya figs which are not the greatest but your help is deeply appreciated.

Specter - Thanks

Rounds Complete!!

Nope, nothing different. They should load. I am at work and our system blocks the pics. As soon as I get home tonight I will check if there is a problem.

Rounds Complete!!

 Hey redleg12,

 I made my Christmas list and the M8 was in the top ten. The snow looks great as does the winter camo. One point that has already been discussed but I still have to say my peace is the base is a little plain. Adding the fence row and a tree or two that are in the pic I think would tie it even more to the photo.

 Overall it is an excellent work. I hope when it snows at my house it turns out half as well as your example.

 Best Regards,

Mobious - Thanks for the comments.

I know how everyone feels...but everyone's artistic (or scale) desire is different. Replicating the picture, the only way at proper scale size to show the trees in the distance would be as a shadow box. The base is not that big to show the distant items properly.

I can't help it....as an engineer I look for scale....this is not an argument of is the cup half empty or full, but IMO is twice as big as it need to be...my art is scale reality...sorry if I offend the art crowd!!

SMJ - Where are you???

Rounds Complete!!

RBaer wrote:

Redleg, you captured the essence of the pic. That was the point, wasn't it? As fas what I see in the pic, it looks to me like a freshly white-washed M8 making a path in virgin snow,  totally plausible in the time frame you're modelling, I think.  The starkness of the base just makes it look colder and more bleak to me. Well done.

   Spent two winters in Germany and there were a few times I found myself in chest deep snow with out one bit of vegetation showing. 

panzerguy wrote:

RBaer wrote: Redleg, you captured the essence of the pic. That was the point, wasn't it? As fas what I see in the pic, it looks to me like a freshly white-washed M8 making a path in virgin snow,  totally plausible in the time frame you're modelling, I think.  The starkness of the base just makes it look colder and more bleak to me. Well done.       Spent two winters in Germany and there were a few times I found myself in chest deep snow with out one bit of vegetation showing.

Done the same in Illinois, too.

Panzerguy and RBaer - Thanks for the comments and the vote of confidence.

After going through artic training and numerous winter exercises during my time, and being in what seemed sometimes to be up to my eyballs in snow with military equipment next to me, I understand.  It is hard to explain to someone the starkness of snow in a military situation and at the same time the feeling it invokes. Part of that memory is why I was drawn to the picture and this build. 

Thanks guys

Rounds Complete!!

redleg12: It worked, I can view the pic's!  I was at a wi-fi site that I normally don't work from so that may have been the problem.

Barring the comments I've read here on your thread that the weathering is a bit too light...I'm mostly looking at your intrepretation/ replication of the photo and I must say, hats off my friend, masterfully done!  Did you say this was one of your first winter camo' attempts?  If you liked it, which it appears you did, you'll find as you try some more you can achieve some real subtle effects with pre/post shading of the white airbrush work, white oils, etc... just like a traditional olive drab paint scheme would be handled.  Snow, even powder, although it's stark white...like other techniques can be varied to enhance the presentation too.  I'm VERY impressed with this build, and enjoyed our exchange of ideas.  Oh yeah, little FYI...that machine gun could use some graphite highlights.

As far as the figure...not bad...but IMO I think it would draw attention away from the success of the rest of your presentation.  Better to improve on the fig's first then add them to future dio's...

I'll be trying some new "snow" techniques on my Flakvierling, I will probably use your foam technique for the base...thanks for that idea! I hope you'll check in and give me your input.  

By the way, Hobbyboss has a Highspeed Tractor that I'd like to get and do the winter camo' scheme thing...any interest in picking one up yourself and we work on them concurrently?

AgentG - If the comments are on a problem with the build, I am all for making changes, but on the art side, like Frank S said, "I did it my way"

Thanks

SMJ - Thanks for the comments on the M8. There are a couple of spots I will touch with graphite before it comes out in Danbury.

As far as the figs...yep, I came to that conclusion myself. This is my next area to work on. Thank God Manny is around to give pointers. These were not great and would detract from the model but for my first time out of the box with figs, I though it was a good start.

The good news is I have both versions of the Hobbyboss M4 HST on the shelf. Also have a bunch of good research material. PM me if you need some.

The bad news is I have begun my next build, M119 105mm Howitzer in Afganistan. Also doing reserch for the build after that which I was planning M113A1 NASA Escape Vehicle. But that is not cast in stone yet.

If I was to switch to the HST, best guess is I would not be ready until ~late Sept/early Oct, after the M119. Would most likely do in conjunction with the M115 8 inch howitzer.

Catch me on the PM and Thanks for you comments and help.

Rounds Complete!! 

I like the way this came out too Mike and I'll certainly be using this thread as a guide for when ever I get back to my already in progress winter project. (Insert boot in the back end here) Altho the M8 is not one of my favorite armored cars, what you did to this does look quite nice!

I do understand the difficulties of doing figures (certainly not my strong suit). They can either add or subtract from the overall appearance of the subject matter. Your snow might be a little too 'deep' but sometimes just pressing boot prints from an old figure into the groundwork ('out' #1) instead of risking the possibility of making good figures look bad or bad figures look even worse (as in my case). My other 'out' is to just concentrate on doing one crew figure dismounted or standing on the (for example) engine deck with binocs... something simple like that to ease the pain (of doing multiple figures) and to help further achieve the "scale effect". Either case, if the crew is not 'around', I scatter some boot prints around the main subject.

However, I do realize that you do like to stick to your reference photo as close as you can and by all means, please do carry on!

Ron - Glad to have you back and thanks for catching up and giving you comment. I appreciate your time and effort.

Kevin - Thanks for looking and your comments. As far as the figures, I'm giving it the old school try. If after a few attempts, I can't improve to the point where it complements the model...well then I will move past figures. I will try some figures for my latest build and see how I do,

I do like the idea of footprints and wish I would have thought of it when I was doing the base...oh well.

Your builds and some other people on this forum are a good examples of the model can carry itself without figures. Thought I would try the whole spectrum but if figures don't work well, I have plenty of models to keep me busy.

Thanks Again

Rounds Complete!!