Question about the engine in the Charger 500

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Gary,  Hope being a new guy here I'm not stepping on any toes.  Really with cars, unless you're a factory stock replica builder anyway, whatever looks nice to you you should do, so more power to you all.  But I've not only been a lifelong mopar model builder, I'm also a life long Mopar owner and attender and participant at many Mopar car shows.  Because of that, I can say that there were many just plain red painted mopar engines over the years from the factory.  The original A Block 273's which eventually morphed into 318, 340 and 360 LAs were red most definately.  So were the original 318's, the polyspherical head ones used mainly in Plymouths up from the mid 50's to 1966.  There were a few other sizes of them earlier as well and they were used some in Dodges too.  The early Plymouth versions of them, used mainly in Furies, used Gold Valve Covers and Aircleaners to throw in a further wrinkle.  I think you are right on the early ,50's Hemis generally having black painted blocks and different colored valve covers and aircleaners at different times.  Come around 1960 though the standard color for nearly everything in V8s was that turquoisy blue with the exeception of the heretofore mentioned 273, and also I believe the Slant 6's of that era were red until becoming black in the later days.  Then around 1967 the more true Chrysler blue came out for all V8's and continued til the end times when many of those, largelly 318 LAs became black.  This included the high performance engines through 1968 and the other "High Performance" engines such as the Police Package engines on into the 70's.  But the magnum or commando engines starting in 1969 until their demise were orange and very close to Chevy Engine Red or Orange (Hemi Orange)and that included the 340s, 383s, 440s and Hemis through 1971. After the death knell of the musclecar, engines like the 360 and 400, bored out 340s and 383s respectively were blue. Of critical note in this thread however, all 426 Hemis were painted orange no matter what and all 426 street hemis used dual carbs.  The Nascar versions were limited to just 1 4 bbl. except for a very brief period in 1968 when dual carbs were available there too. The engine in the Charger 500 kit is a 426 Hemi and should be painted orange with 2 4 bbls to be factory correct. Thanks for listening everbody.  I know its easy to forget sometimes and I didn't state everything above either.  But that which I did, I do remember and is correct. Dave Bayer

I think you missunderstood my post. I meant to say that if it was a multicarbed engine built after 1962 (with a small hand full of exceptions used in the 300 letter cars) the color would be orange. Even the 343 HP engine was painted the aqua color. 1963 was the year that Chrysler ran the full page adds with the max wedge engine, calling it the "orange monster." The gold valve cover engines ould be 59 or even earlier.

    1963 was the advent of the new redesigned 318 / 273 engines that shared the same block along with the 360 engine. The 340 had a larger bore diameter. never messed with them much.

    There were no less than six different max wedge engines built, plus the single carb engines used in circle track racing (three completely different engines here). 1963 saw the Stage One thru Stage Three engines offered (NHRA says they didn't build a Stage Three in 1963, but they're wrong as usual). These have different blocks than the others, but still look very similar. All these engines are painted orange

    Late hemis can be divided into three major catagories with street hemis being divided into three more. The early street hemis had different pistons and rings in them, and seemed to take forever to break in. In 1968 they went with a different piston ring setup that was not changed till the end of production. The third variant was the SS/B engine. I can't for the life of me remember what the compression ratio was, but think it was 11:1. It used the Stage Three max wedge carbs and a smaller top like used with a street hemi. Camshaft was an Isky 505 flat tappet, and these cars would run (probably had a real 575 hp as delivered). Most all were four speed cars. The race hemis are all pretty much the same configuration with lightweight parts exchanged here and there. The only odd ball here is the very early 1964 hemi, and they probably didn't make a dozen. All these engines are painted hemi orange no matter when and where they were used.

All 361, 383, 413, 426, and 440 single carb street engines are painted the aqua color no matter what or where they were used. But if the engine had three carbs it was painted orange. The 1962 343 hp engine built on the 383 block (two fours) was painted aqua. But there maybe a wrench in this madness! There were 350, 361, 383 (two completely different motors here), and 413's built prior to 1962 (1959 and later), and I'm not sure what color these are. But suspect these maybe black before 1960.

gary

Oh, I get what you're saying Gary,  I indeed agree with you on this.  I didn't realize you were focusing on specific time periods there, specifically the early max wedge era.  I was pretty sure  squeaky was talking of a 426 Hemi so I wanted to make sure he understood one, to refresh memories on the red engines two, and  lastly to clarify on the 69, 70 and 71 engines.  Indeed the 440 6 pack was always painted orange.  69 and later 440 magnums, 383 magnums and 340 magnums (with single 4 bbls.)  were all orange too through 71.  Any notch down from them was the blue or aqua and these sizes of engines after 71 were also until when the blacks and what not started in in the late 70s and 80s.  I stand therefore in total agreement with your latest post and did misconstrue some of it. I'm looking forward to talking to you more.  It sounds like we have very similar interests and tastes!

Dave Bayer

Very impressive banter, guys!

You two are like, Human encyclopedias!

the doog wrote:

Very impressive banter, guys! You two are like, Human encyclopedias!

let me put it to you this way, and maybe then you'll understand why things that are painted orange are so addictive. The engine is rolling along at 6,200rpm while you hold the clutch pedal solidly to the floor. You slide your foot to the left about an inch and a half. The car leaps forward and suddenly the rpm drops to idol!! You just ripped the seat mounting brackets out of the floor board, and your now against the back seat!

   Or maybe doing the halfmile drag thing, you look to your right and there's a 427 Camaro about a car length out in front of you that's just gone into fourth gear at about 105mph, but you got another 500 rpm to go (and the needle is climbing fast). At about 110mph you grab the shifter handle (forget the knob) and pull as hard and fast as you got strength. The car leaves two ten foot long black marks on the brushed concrete as you cruise on by the Camaro (a hemi will accellerate as fast in fourth gear as it will in third). As you get settled back in you can now see the Camaro in your rear view mirror going about 135 mph. Time to get out of it and start breathing again while the car brakes on compression. Now that's a rush!!

gary

squeakie wrote:

the doog wrote: Very impressive banter, guys! You two are like, Human encyclopedias! let me put it to you this way, and maybe then you'll understand why things that are painted orange are so addictive. The engine is rolling along at 6,200rpm while you hold the clutch pedal solidly to the floor. You slide your foot to the left about an inch and a half. The car leaps forward and suddenly the rpm drops to idol!! You just ripped the seat mounting brackets out of the floor board, and your now against the back seat!    Or maybe doing the halfmile drag thing, you look to your right and there's a 427 Camaro about a car length out in front of you that's just gone into fourth gear at about 105mph, but you got another 500 rpm to go (and the needle is climbing fast). At about 110mph you grab the shifter handle (forget the knob) and pull as hard and fast as you got strength. The car leaves two ten foot long black marks on the brushed concrete as you cruise on by the Camaro (a hemi will accellerate as fast in fourth gear as it will in third). As you get settled back in you can now see the Camaro in your rear view mirror going about 135 mph. Time to get out of it and start breathing again while the car brakes on compression. Now that's a rush!! gary

I get exactly the same feeling twisting the throttle as the bile flies along through trees buzzing past at 25 mph, your handlebars just barely nicking them, shifting your weight almost imperceptibly on your pegs, your bike "one" with you, over logs, rocks, bumps, tree limbs, and through mud. The best is when you find something to launch over, or when you're chasing the guy in front of you and you can see that you're catching him. You know you're faster than him; you just have to find a place to pass him--one time I was so frustrated at this guy's blocking me and the narrownesss of the tail, I brapped completely off the path, down into a rock-strewn draw, flying over the boulders, barely hanging on, up the other side, launching out of the hole, and coming out ahead. He never even challenged me-he must have rightfully been thinking "this guy's nuts!" LOL! (BTW, completely "legal" in Hare Scramble racing--you have a 10-foot right-of-way from the marked "track")

Ahhhh, competition! My "drug" for sure!

Yes, Gary and Doog,  always wanted to be a roundy round racer myself or super stock drag racer but playing football in college and music (yep do that too, more Jazz and Blues type with my -68 Ovation Tornado, its a lot like the Gibson E5 "f hole" family) and my ensuing job kept to this day as an Assistant District Attorney, time money and funds have never been there for the 1/1 endeavors.  But I've heard many a hemi run, one would completely drown out the noise from a field of 21 other Chevys and have had many a big block in the stable over the years, a couple of 440 4 bbls. a 400 which I swithched over to regular Mopar electronic ignition in a New Yorker of all things, a 440 magnum and even a 413.  To say they haven't been fun and impressive even to me would be a gross understatement.  But model stock cars, dragracers and factory stocks have helped me further fill the dream vicariously, they are fun, colorful, clean and satisfy both artistic and mechanical streaks. Here is a couple pictures of a charger 500 and superbee in progress with of course, orange engines! Hope you enjoy them. Talk to you soon.

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Yes, Gary and Doog,  always wanted to be a roundy round racer myself or super stock drag racer but playing football in college and music (yep do that too, more Jazz and Blues type with my -68 Ovation Tornado, its a lot like the Gibson E5 "f hole" family) and my ensuing job kept to this day as an Assistant District Attorney, time money and funds have never been there for the 1/1 endeavors.  But I've heard many a hemi run, one would completely drown out the noise from a field of 21 other Chevys and have had many a big block in the stable over the years, a couple of 440 4 bbls. a 400 which I swithched over to regular Mopar electronic ignition in a New Yorker of all things, a 440 magnum and even a 413.  To say they haven't been fun and impressive even to me would be a gross understatement.  But model stock cars, dragracers and factory stocks have helped me further fill the dream vicariously, they are fun, colorful, clean and satisfy both artistic and mechanical streaks. Here is a couple pictures of a charger 500 and superbee in progress with of course, orange engines! Hope you enjoy them. Talk to you soon.

a Charger 500 at that! After all wasn't that the real reason God made orange paint??

    When I was a kid we used to hitch hike up to Indy to listen to this guy play his guitar like no other on the planet. The bouncer of course would run us off, and we'd just show up the next weekend (we could easilly out run him). He had a side man that played the Hammond B3 about as well as anyman on earth could as well. So who was he?

Wes Mongomery of course, and the side man was Mel Rhyne (still regarded as the best B3 man ever, and still playing)

gary

Ah yes Gary, truly a man after my own heart.  I have several of Wes's albums.   And what a pleasue and surprise to run into some one on the fine scale modeler forum that even knows what a Hammond B3 is!  I'm still trying to master Wes's techniquie but can sort of bang out a version of Windy now.  My daughter has to go to bed now and the computer is in her room so we'll talk more later.  And yes, I've got to get a better camera and work on my photographic quality.

Dave

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Ah yes Gary, truly a man after my own heart.  I have several of Wes's albums.   And what a pleasue and surprise to run into some one on the fine scale modeler forum that even knows what a Hammond B3 is!  I'm still trying to master Wes's techniquie but can sort of bang out a version of Windy now.  My daughter has to go to bed now and the computer is in her room so we'll talk more later.  And yes, I've got to get a better camera and work on my photographic quality. Dave

Wes played with his thumb and also the palm of his hand. Developed chords that are most often imitated, but rarely if ever equaled. The best in his style of play currently is Bobby Broom out of Chicago, but Frank Steans out of Indy is pretty close as well. I've heard Frank and Bobby jam together after the doors are locked. Talk about smoking! Rhyne is probably as good right now as he's ever been, but can be kinda moody. I heard him jam with Joey De Fransesco once, and he gave J.D. lessons. Another good B3 player (that's still alive) is Tony Manaco out of Columbus Ohio. Not as musical as Rhyne, but still has a wonderfull style. I've also heard Tony and Mel jam, and with both being so much different it turned out to be a great set. Mel just took Tony out to places he'd never been with that B3. I kinda long for the evenings of making empty bottles with J.J. Johnson and critiquing the band, and just learning what was right and what's done wrong.

gary

Gary, That would be an absolute slice of heaven just seeing these guys jam in the am with some really smooth bourbon.  I digress.  Anyway, I'd be interesed in some of your builds, latest project etc.  You've seen my Super Bee in progress, also closing in on a Lindberg 64 Dodge SS/SA, bronze and white, a 631/2 Ford S Stock for a change of pace, a street Charger 500 which I'm going to switch over to a torqueflite sort of my dream car (the current 1:1 project is an all black, Mark Cross leather totally optioned and digitalized 90 Chrysler Imperial, not a muscle car but beautiful and no slouch) a Nascar Intrepid converted into a Super Late Model Short Tracker (My Daily driver is an 02 Intrepid with 3.5 Semi Hemi DOHC six so I had to build some type of Intrepid) and ....  well you get the idea.  I think a lot of out there are like this awith all these half to 3/4 finished projects that we need a little boost or inspiration to finish.

On the flip side I've also got that infamous Navy F7U Cutlass Fighter underway, a Travel Air Mystery Ship racing plane from the 30's and the USS Manchester going.

And Doog,  if you're there, like to see some more of yours too!

Dave B.

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Gary, That would be an absolute slice of heaven just seeing these guys jam in the am with some really smooth bourbon.  I digress.  Anyway, I'd be interesed in some of your builds, latest project etc.  You've seen my Super Bee in progress, also closing in on a Lindberg 64 Dodge SS/SA, bronze and white, a 631/2 Ford S Stock for a change of pace, a street Charger 500 which I'm going to switch over to a torqueflite sort of my dream car (the current 1:1 project is an all black, Mark Cross leather totally optioned and digitalized 90 Chrysler Imperial, not a muscle car but beautiful and no slouch) a Nascar Intrepid converted into a Super Late Model Short Tracker (My Daily driver is an 02 Intrepid with 3.5 Semi Hemi DOHC six so I had to build some type of Intrepid) and ....  well you get the idea.  I think a lot of out there are like this awith all these half to 3/4 finished projects that we need a little boost or inspiration to finish. On the flip side I've also got that infamous Navy F7U Cutlass Fighter underway, a Travel Air Mystery Ship racing plane from the 30's and the USS Manchester going. And Doog,  if you're there, like to see some more of yours too! Dave B.

I'm working on four or five different cars at the sametime right now, and some of it's driving me nuts! One is a 1964 two door sedan Plymouth with a street hemi in it. The body is resin, and there something wrong with the width of the body (as in about a millimeter too wide). I'll make it work in the end.

* a 1927 Ford roadster built to run in rear engine modified roadster at Bonneville. Motor is still up in the air, but I'm thinking about a fuel injected Chevy to run in C-FRMR. Frame is giving me fits, but think I can see a dim light at the end of the tunnel here (very dim)

* a 34 Ford to run in vintage coup. Will have to use the Ford type frame and go from there. It'll have a late model hemi in it that blown. I've rounded up about half the pieces here. This car like the 27 will take a lot of work, and the body is the easy part.

* 1/16th scale model A Ford to run in street roadster class at Bonneville (can you tell where my heart's at?) Now this one's easier in some ways and then harder in others. I may built it with an injected flathead Ford engine, but at the moment I'm thinking late model four cylinder engine. Frame is driving me beyond nuts on this one, and I've thrown away two subframes already

* I'm also kinda thinking about building a 1964 Dodge or Plymouth with a race hemi in it and the correct factory wheel locations. Kinda stumped as to how to relocate the K-frame forward 2.5". The rear is easy, and I need 4.5" (i think anyway)

    What I really need is a good 1963 body. I got everything else to build a lightweight max wedge (including the correct engine). Anybody have a loose one laying around? I have to get something done here as I have several others I need to get moving on (two M-551's and a Ventura)

gary

gary

Gary,  On the Altered Wheelbase Mopar, if its a Lindberg this probably shouldnt be too bad. The hard part is the motor mounts are on the K Frame/lower suspension assembly and so should be removed and placed back farther on the suspension the same distance that you are moving the Kframe and suspension forward, because as I know you know, you sure don't want the engine moving forward,the whole idea was to get more weight to the rear.  It looks to me like the motor mounts should be able to be removed fairly cleanly and glued to the K frame just above where the idler and pitman arms hook up to the frame.  The only other thing then would be to remove those 2 mounting blocks for the K frame and place them farther ahead on the front frame.  I'd think just a cut with an X acto or razor saw should do the trick there and just reinstall them in the more forward position with a really  thin shim of sheet plastic to bring them back out the proper distance.

If the motor mounts don't come as cleanly as you'd like I would think you could make some from plastruct or evergreen rail or beam stock of the proper dimension by just measuring test fitting and cutting.

A little elevation could be accomplished then too by bringing the spindles down on the kingpins by simply cutting them off and reattaching them.  I suppose some metal rod could be substituted for the plastic spindles if you drilled them.

Last thought, I've sometimes had it in my head to use the front straigt axle and leafsprings from the Little Red Wagon.

For the B Ville roadster, the AMT parts pack kit with the 5 engines and T bucket body and accessories looks promising, theres an early blown hemi in there with a chevy small block with two building options, an Olds that can be built two ways, an Allison and a corvair engine.  You probably thought of this already, but just a thought if not.

I have a 65 Plymouth sedan body that seems to wide.  I'm not sure of the maker, maybe R and R.  I figured just to put some plastruct rail stock along the edges of the top of the interior.  I think this would represent a more realsitic width for the door anyway.  Finally I do have a 63 Fury body which is painted Tamiya Mica Red and partially foiled except the cowl cracked on the passenger side and it would need a little body work there, but unless you really want that or have a good trade I eventually will probably do the body work myself eventually.  I'm always on the lookout for early mopar prostock parts, and anything in 6os Chryler and Imperial.

See ya later.

Dave B.

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Gary,  On the Altered Wheelbase Mopar, if its a Lindberg this probably shouldnt be too bad. The hard part is the motor mounts are on the K Frame/lower suspension assembly and so should be removed and placed back farther on the suspension the same distance that you are moving the Kframe and suspension forward, because as I know you know, you sure don't want the engine moving forward,the whole idea was to get more weight to the rear.  It looks to me like the motor mounts should be able to be removed fairly cleanly and glued to the K frame just above where the idler and pitman arms hook up to the frame.  The only other thing then would be to remove those 2 mounting blocks for the K frame and place them farther ahead on the front frame.  I'd think just a cut with an X acto or razor saw should do the trick there and just reinstall them in the more forward position with a really  thin shim of sheet plastic to bring them back out the proper distance. If the motor mounts don't come as cleanly as you'd like I would think you could make some from plastruct or evergreen rail or beam stock of the proper dimension by just measuring test fitting and cutting. A little elevation could be accomplished then too by bringing the spindles down on the kingpins by simply cutting them off and reattaching them.  I suppose some metal rod could be substituted for the plastic spindles if you drilled them. Last thought, I've sometimes had it in my head to use the front straigt axle and leafsprings from the Little Red Wagon. For the B Ville roadster, the AMT parts pack kit with the 5 engines and T bucket body and accessories looks promising, theres an early blown hemi in there with a chevy small block with two building options, an Olds that can be built two ways, an Allison and a corvair engine.  You probably thought of this already, but just a thought if not. I have a 65 Plymouth sedan body that seems to wide.  I'm not sure of the maker, maybe R and R.  I figured just to put some plastruct rail stock along the edges of the top of the interior.  I think this would represent a more realsitic width for the door anyway.  Finally I do have a 63 Fury body which is painted Tamiya Mica Red and partially foiled except the cowl cracked on the passenger side and it would need a little body work there, but unless you really want that or have a good trade I eventually will probably do the body work myself eventually.  I'm always on the lookout for early mopar prostock parts, and anything in 6os Chryler and Imperial. See ya later. Dave B.

* remember that a hemi has different motor mounts than a wedge. They moved them forward to gain header clearence, but how they did them on the 1964 cars I really don't remember. There were actually three different superstock hemis built in 1964. Twelve with a stock wheelbase (might even be less than twelve). A very, very small handfull of what is known as 2% cars. This car has the entire body moved back 2% of the wheelbase (I've never seen one, but my brother has seen a couple). Then there is the one we normally know of with the slight factory altered wheel base. I might add here that there were a very, very small handfull of two door hardtops built (I've only seen two), and for some odd reason have a 1" shorter wheel base. The hood on the standar wheelbase cars is exactly the same as on a stageIII wedge motor while the others have the bigger hood scoop.

* a bucket T at Bonneville would be dangerous; what with the high center of gravity. But there was one built this year on a long wheel base. 1927 T's are the way to go in modified roadsters. They're longer and lower to the ground. Plus you can get your head out of the wind. Check out the SCTA's website. If I go ahead with the Chevy engine I'll start with one out of a Sprint car. It's got the correct Winters quick change rear end and all I need from there is a four speed transmission and home brew air shifters. The hard part is fabricating the roll cage, and making it look right.

* that's the brand of resin body I have! Just a different year. I have a 1963 two door hardtop, but need grill and bumpers (it's not resin). I have an unbuilt max wedge engine, but need to find some headers as it has the factory "tri-Y's". They never shipped a car with "tri-y's with a cross ram intake. But if your ever thinking about building a 1963 NASCAR car these are the correct headers along with the "airgap intake."

* with that 65 body you ought to think about building Butch Leal's car. It's got a four link rear suspension system, and tied in frame rails. This car is very very fast even to this day. I saw it drag the rear bumper for 300 ft in Indy!! With a well built Ray Barton hemi it ought be in the very low nines (SS/B) (don't forget to notch the passenger side shock tower).

    Right now I'm really concentrating on the Model A roadster car. I've even thought about scratch building one of the Mopar four cylinder race car engines (about the baddest four banger on the planet). Looking for a 32 grill shell and wheels right now. What I'll do for 300 mph tires is another story in itself!

gary

Thanks for the info again Gary.  I believe I will do that 65 Butch Leal car, I've got some pretty good photos laying around of it somewhere.  Coming to mind then is what about a Ross Gibson engine for it too?  I think he's got just the period correct one for it and I further presume it used a torqueflite?

For the Bonneville car I was thinking more of just one of the parts pack engines being good, like the 392 hemi.  I wasn't suggesting the T Body.  I'm going with a channelled Duece for mine from the most recent Amt Coupe reissue, but not for Bonneville use, either a street rod or nostalgia drag car I think. For the B Ville tires, boy, I don't know.  Maybe those in the very early Monogram issues which have been reissued, like the Green Hornet or Black Widow?  They kind of have that bulbous sidwall, narrow tread look that looks right for a dry lakes racer and have the smooth full hubcap discs so common there too if I remember correctly. Not unlike 4os and 5os type Indy car tires.

On your Mopar Super Stock, what I'm getting at is, I'd almost bet Lindberg uses the same motor mounts for the Petty Belvedere, Stock Belvedere even though its a wedge and not a Hemi ( the leaning tower of power has its own special mounts to add in the kit but we know thats a whole different story for another day lol), for the 64 Dodge Super Stocks and for the 64 Dodge 330 street version to save tooling costs even though of course the 1/1 cars had different ones.  Worth checking out anyway.  If not, I could send you a Ramchargers Lindberg 64 Dodge front frame section, K frame and front suspension  from my spares box that you could put on the back half of the Plymouth Chassis.  Hot Rod came out with a special Anniversary Hemi edition magazine within the past year that should still be available, and if not I can send you a copy of a good photo they have in there of a 2% car.  It is one of the 64 Melrose Missles running against Landy's 64 sedan as an AHRA Ultra Stock I believe.  Lots of good stuff in the mag if you can find it though.

Finally, whew, for the 63 Plymouth, Modelhaus offers chromed front and rear bumpers, hood ornaments, Turn signal lights, the whole 9 yards.  They're made for Johan and I'm virtually positive thats what your 63 body was patterned off of.

I also happen to have an extra set of 63 64 type fenderwell headers I'd be willing to swap for the Tri Y's if thats the sort of thing you might be looking for.  They were designed for the 64 Johan Hemi Dodge Hardtop and I also have a spare or two of the indented Max Wedge type hoodscoop if you would like that, though I imagine you're probably looking towards using the large Hemi type scoop.  Let me know.  I hope this helps, and your input has given me at least two new good ideas.  Thank you.  Now tomorrow I have to get started on some of this stuff.

Dave

gary,  I suppose we ought to start a new thread too next time.  We've gone a long way from the Charger 500 via Jazz and everything else.  Kind of cool though.

Dave

UnderdogF7U wrote:

gary,  I suppose we ought to start a new thread too next time.  We've gone a long way from the Charger 500 via Jazz and everything else.  Kind of cool though. Dave

I was just tinking of renaming this thread something like "Squeaky and Underdog's hijacked engine thread"! 

Honestly, I received the answers I needed long ago, and I don't care if you keep posting in it--there's some good info trading here! 

OK Doog, I'm game if you and Squeakie are.  I'm having a good time and learning a lot too, about lots of things.  Can't think of a better name to be under than Charger, expecially a 500 with a Hemi, anyway.  I've dug mine out to work on with all the other 1/2 finished projects.

Dave Bayer

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Thanks for the info again Gary.  I believe I will do that 65 Butch Leal car, I've got some pretty good photos laying around of it somewhere.  Coming to mind then is what about a Ross Gibson engine for it too?  I think he's got just the period correct one for it and I further presume it used a torqueflite? For the Bonneville car I was thinking more of just one of the parts pack engines being good, like the 392 hemi.  I wasn't suggesting the T Body.  I'm going with a channelled Duece for mine from the most recent Amt Coupe reissue, but not for Bonneville use, either a street rod or nostalgia drag car I think. For the B Ville tires, boy, I don't know.  Maybe those in the very early Monogram issues which have been reissued, like the Green Hornet or Black Widow?  They kind of have that bulbous sidwall, narrow tread look that looks right for a dry lakes racer and have the smooth full hubcap discs so common there too if I remember correctly. Not unlike 4os and 5os type Indy car tires. On your Mopar Super Stock, what I'm getting at is, I'd almost bet Lindberg uses the same motor mounts for the Petty Belvedere, Stock Belvedere even though its a wedge and not a Hemi ( the leaning tower of power has its own special mounts to add in the kit but we know thats a whole different story for another day lol), for the 64 Dodge Super Stocks and for the 64 Dodge 330 street version to save tooling costs even though of course the 1/1 cars had different ones.  Worth checking out anyway.  If not, I could send you a Ramchargers Lindberg 64 Dodge front frame section, K frame and front suspension  from my spares box that you could put on the back half of the Plymouth Chassis.  Hot Rod came out with a special Anniversary Hemi edition magazine within the past year that should still be available, and if not I can send you a copy of a good photo they have in there of a 2% car.  It is one of the 64 Melrose Missles running against Landy's 64 sedan as an AHRA Ultra Stock I believe.  Lots of good stuff in the mag if you can find it though. Finally, whew, for the 63 Plymouth, Modelhaus offers chromed front and rear bumpers, hood ornaments, Turn signal lights, the whole 9 yards.  They're made for Johan and I'm virtually positive thats what your 63 body was patterned off of. I also happen to have an extra set of 63 64 type fenderwell headers I'd be willing to swap for the Tri Y's if thats the sort of thing you might be looking for.  They were designed for the 64 Johan Hemi Dodge Hardtop and I also have a spare or two of the indented Max Wedge type hoodscoop if you would like that, though I imagine you're probably looking towards using the large Hemi type scoop.  Let me know.  I hope this helps, and your input has given me at least two new good ideas.  Thank you.  Now tomorrow I have to get started on some of this stuff. Dave

* Butch Leal ran nothing but four speeds! He was the equal to Ronnie Sox when it came to shifting a four speed, and many insiders thought he was better (at the factory). His 60 ft times were the equal if not better than 90% of the Prostock cars. I well remember watching him show up at Raceway Park one Wednesday night for a test and tune with all the other Mopar guys. The national record for SS/A was in the high nines, and Sox & Martin ran several nine fours. Leal just comes out and ran a 9.77 on a high ten second national record!! The car had more in it by the way as he shut off about two hundred feet from the traps. He used what looked like a factory intake (who knows what it looked like inside). The suspension was pure prostock (remember they made the rule change the year before to help the G.M. guys that let them run just about anything they could fit inside the body). I think it was a four link, but it might have been a three link (I doubt it going that fast). The shifter was not a regular Hurst shifter but one of their Super Shifters with the reverse lockout. I think maybe Harry Holten might have been the engine builder (West Coast Hemis), and that's traveling in some fast company (8.5's at 150mph)

* If your thinking about 1/25th scale there's a wide array of bodies. But no 1927 roadster! There was one sold once, but it can be extremely hard to come by. Rules state that if your running a stock bodied coup or roadster then you must use the factory (or replica) frame rails, but anykind of a cross member is OK. Most guys do a subframe affair that's attached to the outter rails. Yet use a full cross member in front and back on a fully boxed set of rails. This why you rarely see a Mod. T in street roadster or even roadtser classes (but they'll now let you run 32 rails in a high boy configuration [remember the C/G problem?]). You don't see a lot of early hemis much anymore at Bonneville, and most of them are Donovan 417's with the alloy tunnel port heads (a killer combo in "B" class by the way). They don't use factory type motor mounts, but run block plates front and rear. Most cars run a quickchange or a 9" Ford these days.

    Dry lakes cars have a tread pattern in the tires, but are somewhat narrow like Bonnevilles tires. These cars are a dream for a weathering project, and the solt all over everything is another issue.

* I have those same 1964 kits stashed away. And somewhere I have a full set of Tommy Groves 1964 Melrose Missle decales. Remember Tommy ran a stage three engine most of the time in a super light weight car.

* thanks for the tip on the 1963 parts!!!

* I'll probably never use the factory "tri-y" headers, and yes we can do a swap. What you'll do about the airgap intake I don't know, but a little work with a Dremel and a new valley cover will get you moving. P.M. me when you get a chance

   I once built a very accurate 1962 Belvedere hardtop that had a 413 max wedge in it. This car was accurate right down to the spring clamps attached to the rear leaf springs. My mother gave it away to the paper boy!!

gary

OK Gary, I think I have all I need then for the Leal car.  No decals but I've got references and can paint on the lettering.  Thats sort of my specialty.  The Charger 500 above is an example.

Sounds like you have all you need for your 64, I believe the Melrose Missle III decals are the right ones.

I'll send out a private e so we can swap the headers.  I think I know what you mean for the intake.  For air cleaner though, the kind of offset cowl induction found in Johan Petty kits, mid 60s style?

Sorry about the 62, I just finished a nice 62 Dart Max Wedge 413 but I couldn't figure out how to get it out of My Photos to get it to you just now.  I'll work on that later.  thanks.

Dave B.

UnderdogF7U wrote:

OK Gary, I think I have all I need then for the Leal car.  No decals but I've got references and can paint on the lettering.  Thats sort of my specialty.  The Charger 500 above is an example. Sounds like you have all you need for your 64, I believe the Melrose Missle III decals are the right ones. I'll send out a private e so we can swap the headers.  I think I know what you mean for the intake.  For air cleaner though, the kind of offset cowl induction found in Johan Petty kits, mid 60s style? Sorry about the 62, I just finished a nice 62 Dart Max Wedge 413 but I couldn't figure out how to get it out of My Photos to get it to you just now.  I'll work on that later.  thanks. Dave B.

there's a guy on Ebay that sells a Butch Leal set of decales for the 65 thru 72 cars (maybe later I don't remember). Sad thing is that there a few pictures of the dark blue or black 65 car, as most pics are red and white. Same paint schemes, but different colors.

gary

Thanks Gary.  Did you get my address on the PM?

Dave

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Thanks Gary.  Did you get my address on the PM? Dave

yes I did. I was sorta waiting to see if you also wanted the cowl induction setup and the open plenum torque box intake manifold (looks like the cross ram, but with one carb). The only thing I bought the kit for was grills and bumpers and windshield.

gary

In case I didn't get through Gary,  I'll take the whole 9 yards for sure.  Anything additional beyond the headers you need,  I've got numerous vintage mopar roundy round and drag parts, some factory stock stuff, the odd Ford here and there, some of which are still in full kits.

Let me know and thanks for the banter.  Its a pleasure.

Dave B.

UnderdogF7U wrote:

In case I didn't get through Gary,  I'll take the whole 9 yards for sure.  Anything additional beyond the headers you need,  I've got numerous vintage mopar roundy round and drag parts, some factory stock stuff, the odd Ford here and there, some of which are still in full kits. Let me know and thanks for the banter.  Its a pleasure. Dave B.

you be watching for a small box in the mail. I've found the kits we need for the parts, and now all I gotta do is move about a hundred 1/48th scale airplanes to get to them.

    Lastly have you seen the new Dodge superstock Challanger yet? Has the new 392" motor in it, and appears to be a regular runner (10.4's lifting the pedal 200 ft before the traps)

gary

Gary, I have seen the new 392 Challenger Super Stock.  It is sweeeeeeet.  Anyway, thank you for the trade.  I'll package yours up tonight too, but, I still need to know where to send it!  Talk to you soon.

Dave.

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Gary, I have seen the new 392 Challenger Super Stock.  It is sweeeeeeet.  Anyway, thank you for the trade.  I'll package yours up tonight too, but, I still need to know where to send it!  Talk to you soon. Dave.

I guess I forgot all about that part (I'm getting a little long in the tooth you know). Watch your email!

gary

Gary,  Me too. I'll be 50 next year, can just remember barely, barely from actual knowledge or actually seeing a lot of what we're talking about.  Without shows, Google, Books and mags, I'd be lost though...........  Hey, why did I just walk into this room?   HMMM You know, that kind of stuff.

Doog, are you having fun yet.

Later.

Dave B. 

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Gary,  Me too. I'll be 50 next year, can just remember barely, barely from actual knowledge or actually seeing a lot of what we're talking about.  Without shows, Google, Books and mags, I'd be lost though...........  Hey, why did I just walk into this room?   HMMM You know, that kind of stuff. Doog, are you having fun yet. Later. Dave B.  I was down at my brother's place over the weekend for a few minutes, and they had the Hot Rod Magazine issue on the late hemi development plus the thing they did on Eric Rickman. I remember standing near Herb McCandless' Duster while they were all working underneath it. Used to see Rickman every year at the 500 in Indy. Been awhile. gary

Hello all, Doog and Squeaky Gary,

  I am starting work on my 69 Charger 500, this one to be the street version. The only change in the kit othet than basic clean up and addition of missing details, (ie fixing the rear valance, lic. plates, seat belts, pedals, some scratched from suspension detail, antenna, basic wirning and plumbing etc. is to put the  hemi with an automatic transmission on it from the 67 MPC Charger into it.  The kit of course is typical 60's MPC, as we all know and have spoken of many times, but certainly workable.  One thing is really bothering me though. 

The dual quad intake manifold to me looks really shallow.  Is there a better one out there to substitute, such as the AMT Roadrunner/GTX/Super Bee or one of the 67 through 69 Revell B Bodies? I want the factory in line system, not a cross ram. And, what are the right carburators for this application, Holly or Carter and where could they be found.  The ones in the kit are a choice of Dominators or actually crisply detailed but ridiculously small, Holleys or Rochester, or Stromberg?  I don't know.

Then finally, with the new set up, is it likely I'll still have hood clearance?  I'm imagining so since I've done several stock cars with a rat roaster and a medium size Holly with this or the Dukes kit and it just barely fits.  Anybody out there, feel free to join in.

Thanks.  And Gary, I still need to put an address on your package!!!!!!

Dave B.

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Hello all, Doog and Squeaky Gary,   I am starting work on my 69 Charger 500, this one to be the street version.... The dual quad intake manifold to me looks really shallow.  Is there a better one out there to substitute, such as the AMT Roadrunner/GTX/Super Bee or one of the 67 through 69 Revell B Bodies? Dave B.