Question about the engine in the Charger 500

the doog wrote:

UnderdogF7U wrote: Hello all, Doog and Squeaky Gary,   I am starting work on my 69 Charger 500, this one to be the street version.... The dual quad intake manifold to me looks really shallow.  Is there a better one out there to substitute, such as the AMT Roadrunner/GTX/Super Bee or one of the 67 through 69 Revell B Bodies? Dave B. Just be careful if you add any "beefier" parts--you could have a serious issue with the hood not fitting\correctly. I had to shave mine down even more. If you display it with the air cleaner off, you may clear it ok, but if you're adding height, you're going to have an issue with clearance.

Now Doog you know I told you once before that it's a cardinal sin to leave the air cleaner base off any Mopar engine. That base is good for five to fifteen horsepower. You might be able to section the intake and maybe add a piece of .06" stock between the halves (figuring that you'll loose .03" from the saw blade alone). Street hemis came with Carters AFB's. There were actually two completely different kinds used (SS/B cars verses a regular street hemi), but even then they are identical on the outside. Race hemis use 4150 Holleys (if I remember right), and are not the dual line jobs often called double pumpers. A "rat roaster"? I wonder what that means, and who thought that name up?<g>

gary

Squeaky and Doog,

If I've got this right, the answer to my questions are: I want to use Carter AFBs because this is a factory/street application, and, I might have clearance problems by substitution a higher intake manifold from another kit.  If I do, Gary / Squeaky has reminded us of the best way to do this by modifying and shortening the manifold. 

The Rat Roaster name refers to the Nascar type of manifold used on Hemis raced in Nascar from sometime in 1969 on until the rulesmakers finally crippled it beyond competitiveness in their desire to bring on the age of the small block (though God knows what really was going on in their heads.) It was the bathtub or large box type looking manifold just like the cross ram for the max wedges and drag race type 426 hemis only set up for just the single 4 bbl.  In fact, this slang in certain instances spread to the cross ram on occaision.  It was, I think, intended to mean that it was just an additional improved way in which the Hemi could destroy the big block Chevy, or Rat Motor, in competition, but there might be something else at work there, another story, I don't know.

So, here comes my next question:  I'm having trouble figuring how to post photos in the forum here from my pictures folder.  I found a nice picture of one of these, downloaded it to my files, but can't figure out how to upload the attachment here.  Any instructions?  Helppppp!

thanks my friends.

Dave B.

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Squeaky and Doog, If I've got this right, the answer to my questions are: I want to use Carter AFBs because this is a factory/street application, and, I might have clearance problems by substitution a higher intake manifold from another kit.  If I do, Gary / Squeaky has reminded us of the best way to do this by modifying and shortening the manifold.  The Rat Roaster name refers to the Nascar type of manifold used on Hemis raced in Nascar from sometime in 1969 on until the rulesmakers finally crippled it beyond competitiveness in their desire to bring on the age of the small block (though God knows what really was going on in their heads.) It was the bathtub or large box type looking manifold just like the cross ram for the max wedges and drag race type 426 hemis only set up for just the single 4 bbl.  In fact, this slang in certain instances spread to the cross ram on occaision.  It was, I think, intended to mean that it was just an additional improved way in which the Hemi could destroy the big block Chevy, or Rat Motor, in competition, but there might be something else at work there, another story, I don't know. So, here comes my next question:  I'm having trouble figuring how to post photos in the forum here from my pictures folder.  I found a nice picture of one of these, downloaded it to my files, but can't figure out how to upload the attachment here.  Any instructions?  Helppppp! thanks my friends. Dave B.

Dave the Nascar "tub" as some folks like to call it is really what is known as the "open plenum torque box". Which was the fore runner to several of the intakes that Eldebrock came out with later. Chrysler and Eldebrock have long had a very close working relationship thru the years. A "rat roaster" was the Eldebrock name for a special intake they built for street hemis, and yet conform to the NHRA "rules on the fly system." Or another way to say it is take care of your buddy system (Ask Warren Johnson). There were two versions made. One with the carbs inline and with a Carter bolt pattern. The other had a dual bolt pattern with the carbs slightly offset for clearence. I've worked with both of them, and both work well. With 3705 Carters off a Max Wedge and that intake your looking 40 to 50 horsepower! How much power? I'd be thinking 700hp with stock heads on 103 octane gas and a Racer Brown 72R roller (remember the post I made about ripping the seats out of the floorboard?) The intake makes power out to about 8,000 rpm. Is real hard on clutches and drive shafts. Should have named it "rat poison."

    I get a single photo to post, so don't feel bad. They just need to make it easier for the masses

gary

Once again Gary, Thanks.  The Doog is right about your encyclopidic knowledge or our favorite marque.   I know quite a bit.  I'm going to estimate your knowledge is about 3 times that.

Thanks too for the commiseration on the photo posting.  They really seem to encourage that on the Johan resurrected forum and on the Scale Auto side it seems like, but not so much here I guess.

At any rate, is the open plenum style manifold then similar to the one you are sending with the tri y headers or a different animal.  I'm really interested in that and starting that rare early type of stock car. Not too many photos to be found on the net it doesn't seem like, for 63 on back.

  I really appreciate yours and everyone's interest here, our friend Doog too. This was a hard week.  I'm an assistant DA here in Kenosha, I'm proud and unafraid to say out loud, but this last few weeks, between Defense attorneys who don't have a clue, people who seemed to go into overdrive on committing crimes, many drug related, 60 hours of work which only reduced my pile of files about 1/3 and a case of colitis kind of burned me out this time.

Still looking forward, Gary / Squeaky to sending off your little package of the headers and a few other goodies, so send that address off to me on PM.

Talk to you soon.

Dave B.

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Once again Gary, Thanks.  The Doog is right about your encyclopidic knowledge or our favorite marque.   I know quite a bit.  I'm going to estimate your knowledge is about 3 times that. Thanks too for the commiseration on the photo posting.  They really seem to encourage that on the Johan resurrected forum and on the Scale Auto side it seems like, but not so much here I guess. At any rate, is the open plenum style manifold then similar to the one you are sending with the tri y headers or a different animal.  I'm really interested in that and starting that rare early type of stock car. Not too many photos to be found on the net it doesn't seem like, for 63 on back.   I really appreciate yours and everyone's interest here, our friend Doog too. This was a hard week.  I'm an assistant DA here in Kenosha, I'm proud and unafraid to say out loud, but this last few weeks, between Defense attorneys who don't have a clue, people who seemed to go into overdrive on committing crimes, many drug related, 60 hours of work which only reduced my pile of files about 1/3 and a case of colitis kind of burned me out this time. Still looking forward, Gary / Squeaky to sending off your little package of the headers and a few other goodies, so send that address off to me on PM. Talk to you soon. Dave B.

I guess you didn't get my email. The picture on the box shows the factory cast iron "tri-y" headers that only came on NASCAR wedge engines from mid 1963 till the advent of the late hemi. But the headers they have in the kit are custom tube headers. They didn't even include the OEM Ramcharger cast iron headers! But on the other hand it's not hard to convert the tube headers into "try-y's." I'm gonna send them anyway with a note on what todo. The "open plenum torque box" sorta looks like the cross ram used on hemis, but is actually smaller. Has one carb that sets in a recessed spot in the middle. The intake actually didn't make anymore power the the one before, but was a true torque monster at a higher than normal rpm range. It was a real pain to work with so I've been told and near impossible to jet right. This intake looks a lot like the Eldebrock cross rams they used to make, but is much different inside.

    I raced Plymouths for several years, and would go back if it were not for NHRA. Then I drove an AMX, and there was a new game of fun in town (it's a rush like you've never had bounching the front wheels going into third gear). I wanted a superstock AMX so bad that I couldn't stand it! Those cars are about the fastest superstockers on the planet except for a full tilt race hemi.

    When it comes to Mopars and I don't really know the answer for sure I just forward the question to my brother. If he dosn't know, he knows who does know (which is kinda rare for him not to know). He builds engines for people all over the country, and is pretty well known in those circles. His latest thing is building 470" motors that drag bumpers for a hundred fifty feet, and don't break. Kinda funny how he evolves in that it seems like a year ago he was building 528" motors all the time, and then he comes upwith a new combo and puts one together for somebody to test. Karl's seen a couple of his motors in his cars.

gary

Sounds good Gary.  I'll be looking for it.  I think what I'll do maybe is restrip my 63 Fury, remove the side trim and do a Petty or possibly even Norm Nelson Stock Car.  No one will have probably ever seen such a thing. Might go for an MCW body too, not sure yet.

Anyway, no, I didn't get your email.  Here is my address again:  because917@yahoo.com 

maybe you should just try a plain ol email to there.  I really do want to send you something in return, I have these good fenderwell headers and some goodies, but I still don't have your mailing address.

thanks again Gary and have a good evening. 

Oh, and PS, I do have a mint Johan 69 AMX Super Stocker.  If you have a photo of your old 1/1 car, that might just give me some ideas!

Dave B.

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Sounds good Gary.  I'll be looking for it.  I think what I'll do maybe is restrip my 63 Fury, remove the side trim and do a Petty or possibly even Norm Nelson Stock Car.  No one will have probably ever seen such a thing. Might go for an MCW body too, not sure yet. Anyway, no, I didn't get your email.  Here is my address again:  because917@yahoo.com  maybe you should just try a plain ol email to there.  I really do want to send you something in return, I have these good fenderwell headers and some goodies, but I still don't have your mailing address. thanks again Gary and have a good evening.  Oh, and PS, I do have a mint Johan 69 AMX Super Stocker.  If you have a photo of your old 1/1 car, that might just give me some ideas! Dave B.

My old AMX was just red with white racing stripes. No painted bumpers or anything like that. Even the interior was basic black. Mine was not a factory type super stock AMX. No such luck!

gary

Hello all,  Back to our favorite thread.  I am trying to learn how to post better pictures and am here sending a photo of a Hemi Cuda I built a year or two ago that recently won a show at a Hobbytown USA show in Oshkosh.  Let me know how it works.

Squeakie still wondering about your address to send you your little package.  I have a 63 Plymouth about ready to take the manifold and headers you said you'd send out.  If you need the address again let me know.

Dave

UnderdogF7U wrote:

Hello all,  Back to our favorite thread.  I am trying to learn how to post better pictures and am here sending a photo of a Hemi Cuda I built a year or two ago that recently won a show at a Hobbytown USA show in Oshkosh.  Let me know how it works. Squeakie still wondering about your address to send you your little package.  I have a 63 Plymouth about ready to take the manifold and headers you said you'd send out.  If you need the address again let me know. Dave

glad you painted it that color of bronze! There were two colors offered in 69 and I think 70 as well. I much prefered the darker of the two like yours. My 69 hemi roadrunner was also painted that color as well, but with the tan interior.

   Have not forgot you on the engine parts, and have the kits laid out to clip off the pieces. I'm now convinced that I'm missing two kits instead of one! I guess maybe I need to head over to my youngest son's place as a repo man! Also been real busy helping assemble a half dozen 470" motors built on 383" blocks, and one 528" bumper dragger.

gary