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Old Ironsides - Revisiting the classic Revell 1/96 kit

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  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Monday, June 23, 2014 12:11 AM

Evan,

You can be sure that I am not the only one following your outstanding build.  I really like your treatment for the decks, subtle and elegant.  The brass belaying pins proportions are just right.  How are you going to treat the pins by the way?  

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    June 2012
Posted by arnie60 on Monday, June 23, 2014 1:14 PM

Nice to see you back at it Evan.

Mine has been on hold w/ graduations, family, and vacation.

Exceptional treatment on the decks!

Looking forward to your next post.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Saturday, June 28, 2014 1:20 PM

Steve - Thanks for the appreciation.  I use washes extensively, but prefer the "light touch" for my decks.  It does tend more towards a subtle effect...  You've caught me in a quandary regarding the belaying pins.  I think my choices are to prime and paint, blacken them, or leave them as they are... Interestingly there are references to receipts that indicate that many (if not all) of the pins on Constitution were cast iron!  At this point I might just leave them brass.

Arnie - Life stuff has delayed some of my progress as well - same reasons you've cited. Thanks for keeping tabs with my progress (and did I see you on the Pete Coleman site as well?)

Currently painting the gun stripe.

Thanks all for your interest!

Evan

  • Member since
    June 2012
Posted by arnie60 on Saturday, June 28, 2014 1:35 PM

Hey Evan;

Yeah, I have been following Tim's build, specially since he used the Scaledecks wood decking. They were urging me to post there, but I had no idea how to transfer my log, and there was now way I was going to do it over. Love the site. Really great ideas etc to learn from even if I am not doing the Victory ( and probably never will... Connie is chore enough). LOL

I am actually kinda wishing that I had left my pins brass as well. The contrast would have been really nice, specially since I left the added airports brass (my excuse is that it is being staged as its 1858 overhaul and lots of stuff would be new)Hoping to get back on it once the kiddo takes off for college in a few weeks.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, July 11, 2014 10:16 AM

It's been a long while since I last checked in. I suffered a concussion in March while breaking up a student fight in the high school where I teach, and have been somewhat limited in my ability to focus. I am grateful that this thread is alive and well. I have re-read all the comments and would like to reiterate that I am still extremely impressed with Force9's build, his attention to detail, and his dedication to building an exceptional model. I am equally impressed by the depth of the knowledge presented in this thread by many of the contributors. I am glad to be back!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, July 11, 2014 10:35 AM

I had a concussion like that once. My wife and I were mugged by four teenagers with a hand gun in a motel parking lot in the DC area. One of the little brats amused himself by whacking me repeatedly in the head while another one held the gun on me. My head wasn't quite right for about three days. (Those there are, of course, who say it wasn't right in the first place.)

Bill, I hope that school fight got investigated, and the appropriate person(s) was subjected to disciplinary action. If somebody comes out of an incident like that with a concussion, something's seriously wrong.

In the high school where my wife teaches, at least four students got arrested during the last academic year. Most of them were taken downtown, indicted, released on bail, and sent back to school the next day. Great environment for education.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, July 11, 2014 11:03 AM

John,

The students involved were arrested and prosecuted. Connecticut has a new law that mandates a felony trial as an adult on any assault on a person who is 60 yrs of age or older. I had turned 60 two weeks before. They are currently in prison and expelled from school.

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, July 11, 2014 12:25 PM

That's almost certainly the best solution. That kind of behavior can poison the atmosphere of an entire school.

Four kids (I use the term deliberately) once got into a genuine game of Russian roulette. It ended in the traditional manner: one of the kids blew his head off. The other three became instant folk heroes for most of the student body.

My wife found herself trying to teach the Magna Carta to a class with one of those students in it. She was talking about King John and the barons; the students wanted to hear what the kid with the blown-off head looked like.

My wife has had one raise (of 1.5 percent) in the past six years. Now the state senate wants to offer her a choice: take a nice raise in exchange for giving up tenure, or keep tenure and get her salary frozen for the rest of her career.

My wife is retiring in January. I think she's waited too long.

I move we get back to the Constitution. Sorry.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2012
Posted by arnie60 on Friday, July 11, 2014 12:59 PM

I retired early from teaching for many of the same reasons.

The really sad part is that often the teacher is accused of not using appropriate actions in this sort of situation and I personally was brought up for review and nearly lost my job because the parents sued me for tackling their kid when he ran at another teacher while swinging a school desk chair at her. If I hadn't tackled him to the ground, he would have clobbered her w/ the chair for sure (big kid). Kid had a sprained wrist from my tackling him. I threw my knee out and was on crutches for two weeks. After months of negotiations I was cleared, but the kid was back in school after 10 days of suspension. Needless to say when the time came for her to go to high school, I refused to let my daughter attend public school and got a part time job to help pay for her tuition in a private all girls school . Granted, I was working at an inner city "at risk" school and this was not a "normal" sort of thing to occur at most schools.

The upside is that my daughter ended up finishing high school w/ honors and some great offers for scholarships and I retired and started building model ships.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, July 11, 2014 1:49 PM

I had a somewhat similar experience. After watching what my wife was going through for a few years, I concluded that anybody who (a) had the means to keep his kids out of the Pitt County public schools, and (b) didn't do so was guilty of child abuse. I signed a contract with the Coast Guard to write a book about the history of the Coast Guard Auxiliary. I'm not proud of the book, but the chapter-by-chapter paychecks paid Wendy's private school tuition through middle school and high school.

I've heard a number of horror stories like Arnie's. I know of at least two high school teachers whose careers were wrecked by unfounded accusations from students - and their parents. One of the most depressing features of the teaching profession is the frequency with which parents regard the teacher as the enemy.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, July 11, 2014 2:11 PM

John and Arnie,

I'm sorry that you suffered that. In my case, there was no security around. Another teacher came screaming into my room for me to call security. My student teacher did so while I ran out of the room to take charge or the situation. I separated the two GIRLS and pushed one to the other teacher, who ran away. The girl I kept, unbeknownst to me, is a professionally trained and licensed fighter. She threw herself against me, knocking me down, and started pummeling my head. I held on to her legs so that she couldn't get to the other girl. When security finally arrived, the entire thing had been videoed by students, who took the footage to my principal. He concluded that I had done nothing wrong and had probably saved the school from a lawsuit. However, I took over twenty hits to the head and five solid kicks to the head. I was unable to defend myself because I had to hold onto her.

Although this is an urban school, this is in no way representative of what occurs there. Anyway, back to the USS Constitution . . .

Bill

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Salem, Oregon
Posted by 1943Mike on Friday, July 11, 2014 11:44 PM

I'm sure enjoying Evan's build log. Actually I enjoy most works in progress on this site since I learn from just about all the threads I've read here.

My hat's off to all you modelers who've been, or are currently in, the teaching profession. I spent the last thirteen years before retiring in 2010 as a special ed. teacher in the Los Angeles Unified School District. Although my students were supposed to be learning disabled (my credential was for "mild/moderate" disabilities) it is my opinion that too many of the students in the special ed. program were shuttled into that program because of behavior issues. I may be wrong but it sure seemed that way. At any rate, fortunately, before the headlines in the LA Times blared out: Teacher Goes Berserk In Classroom! I retired.

I'm so grateful that I now live in the beautiful state of Oregon and that my remaining years can be devoted to hiking, photography, and modeling.

I'm looking forward to Evan's posting more of his WIP Big Smile.

Mike

Mike

"Le temps est un grand maître, mais malheureusement, il tue tous ses élèves."

Hector Berlioz

  • Member since
    June 2014
Posted by Charles_Purvis on Wednesday, July 16, 2014 10:09 AM

Evan--

I just wanted to express my own appreciation for what you're doing here, both for the incredible work on display AND for the extraordinarily helpful manner in which you're sharing it with us.

You're providing a clinic in so many different disciplines here . . . it's just a pleasure to see.

Charles

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Wednesday, July 16, 2014 11:40 PM

Bill - Thank you for catching up with my log... Sorry for the circumstances of your absence.  I, too, am a member of the concussion club.  I was involved in a minor car accident late last year and got knocked out cold when I bumped heads with my wife after a side impact.  She was fine - which means it is medically proven that she is more hard-headed than me...  Took me six months to get past the last of the dizziness.

Charles - Welcome to the Old Ironsides model maker's fraternity!  I just peeked at your 1/196 and it is a terrific first effort.  Have no fear of the 1/96 kit... Just start in and enjoy the voyage at whatever tempo suits your style.  I assure you that everything you see me do in my build log can be done by any modeler who possesses patience and passion for the subject.  Just go in with a realistic perspective about the scope of the effort needed to follow thru to completion.

I have laid down the initial gun stripe color and added the red along the gun port sills.  I am now progressing thru the copper hull plates and hope to lay down the black hull paint this weekend.

Cheers

Evan

  • Member since
    June 2014
Posted by Charles_Purvis on Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:11 AM

Evan--

Thanks again, and I am very eager to see pics of the paint job on the gun stripe, which I believe you're doing in ochre yellow, correct?

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Wednesday, July 23, 2014 11:45 PM

Charles - I am indeed going with the yellow stripe instead of white...

Here is where the job stands after some time spent on the half hulls:

You'll see that I've done a fair amount of work on the underside and have the foundation in place for the gun stripe and red port sills.

I started by giving the underside a light coat of Vallejo Air Copper as a base.  I then began to randomly mix different blends of Vallejo Air Copper, Vallejo Hammered Copper, Microlux Air Roof Brown, and MicroLux Grimy Black in small batches and applied using some disposable micro brushes (Model Expo).  I would slink out to the workshop whenever I had an odd 15 or 20 minutes to spend filling in individual plates... After a week or so I had most of the two half hulls done.  A final (obligatory) coat of Vallejo Sepia Wash was then applied and - as with the decking - quickly wiped down with a clean soft cloth.  This had multiple good effects: It knocked down the shine, helped to blend all of the contrasting colors, highlighted some of the plate seams, and - most importantly - removed just enough paint to "expose" the riveting and define the edges of the plates.  I had to press down firmly when wiping it down to get an even exposure of the riveting.

The gun stripe was masked off a bit wider than the final dimension to allow some overlap and a cleaner line once the black is laid down.  After a base coat of Vallejo Air Interior Yellow (A near equivalent to Floquil Depot Buff), a thin layer of Vallejo Sepia wash (the old standby) was applied and lightly wiped down to leave a good patina behind.  This deepened the color enough to generally match what is seen in the Corne paintings.  Next I masked off everything except the gun port sills and airbrushed a few coats of Vallejo Air Ferrari Red.  I wanted the red to be deep and eye-catching.  None of this wimpy wannabe red... It looks blood red in the paintings and that's what will be on the model!  Still a few more detail touch ups remain, but it is almost there.

Here is the discarded tape used for masking just one of the half hulls!

I have not done much in the last week or so.  I thoroughly gunked up my very cheap airbrush and decided to invest in something more substantial.  I'm tired of constantly stripping it all down to clean after every small paint session.  Once done I can attack the black part of the hull.

Thanks to all for your continued interest!

Evan

  • Member since
    June 2014
Posted by Charles_Purvis on Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:20 AM

Bravo Evan!  Bravo . . .

I just love the look you've developed for the copper.  To my eye, it just looks "right."  And thanks as always for the detailed write-up on how you're accomplishing all of this.

Charles

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Sunday, July 27, 2014 1:55 PM

Thank you Charles!

I think the copper detail done by the artisans at Revell all those years ago is under appreciated.  Each plate is rendered with great detail and the riveting adds terrific "dimension" that is not always found on other kits (the Heller Victory comes to mind).  I wanted to do justice to their original effort.

Many of us of a certain age (say something north of 50) can remember when American pennies had a much higher copper content.  Every family had a jar full of pennies that showed a wide variation in color and tone.  Most were shades of brown, some were black, some had green... a few were shiny.  I thought it would be worth the effort to add this same kind of variation to the underside of my Connie and make many of these detailed plates "pop" for a better visual effect.  All was done free hand - no masking involved.  A bit time consuming, of course, but nothing difficult to do...

Thanks again to all who follow along.

Evan

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, July 27, 2014 3:38 PM

There's been a good deal of discussion about the proper color for copper sheathing.  Some authors say that a hull in the water would be bright copper, even after some months of exposure, because the seawater constantly erodes the surface.  Copper left exposed to the air will eventually turn black, brown, or green - like the old pennies.  Just what should the bottom of a ship model look like? I don't have a definitive answer.  But the result Force9 got is, I think, about as good as one can get.

I second the motion to commend Revell for the "plating" detail on its ships.  It's especially remarkable at the turn of the bilge, where the nailheads have to be modified a bit so the hull half can be removed from the mold.  In their day, those Revell sailing ships represented the state of the art - and they still hold their own remarkably well.

It's worth noting that when Heller did its 1/100 Victory, quite a few years after the Revell Constitution and Cutty Sark, the French artisans didn't even try to include the nails in the copper sheathing.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Monday, July 28, 2014 2:28 AM

Evan,

You really did justice to the copper plates with your painting, I am in awe with how beautiful it looks.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Springfield, VA
Posted by crkrieser on Sunday, August 3, 2014 4:58 PM

Evan -

You broke the code on how professional coin grading companies assign MS (Mint State) grades to Uncirculated, i.e., MS grades 60-70, copper coins.  I'm sure I'll hear plenty from the coin collecting community on this statement.

Curt

US Army, Retired

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Roanoke, Virginia
Posted by BigJim on Sunday, August 3, 2014 9:20 PM

jtilley
There's been a good deal of discussion about the proper color for copper sheathing.  Some authors say that a hull in the water would be bright copper, even after some months of exposure, because the seawater constantly erodes the surface.


Forgive me if I am butting in, but, unbeknownst to this thread I found it eerie that just yesterday I came across this quote from George Campbell's book "China Tea Clippers". On page 125 the last paragraph reads;

"An eye-witness in the mid-19th century gives a most thrilling description of a naval squadron under fullsail in the Channel, majestically rising and dipping in the swell with the wet copper glinting and flashing in the setting sunshine." 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, August 3, 2014 10:31 PM

That's one of the quotes I was talking about. Of course we don't know how old the plated on those ships were. But a modeler who made the sheathing of his ship bright copper would get no argument from me.

Secant be sure now, because no ships with copper (or Muntz metal) sheathing are still sailing. We do know that a copper bottom that's been out of the water for some time looks just about like Force 9's model.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, August 4, 2014 12:16 AM

I would like to contribute a paragraph to this thread.

The model as shown is a very  atractive one.

On the other hand, when ships were "copperred" it was all done at once , save on line repairs at stations away from home port.

We can't follow the color of the plates on an Early 19th  century ship., recorded in color.

I am going to put together a thread that  i can promising will be interesting.

Foundation;; a skin of 26000 sq ft of facade on a museum I helped design.

Second, results of 11 years of weathering.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Roanoke, Virginia
Posted by BigJim on Monday, August 4, 2014 6:14 AM

Yes, his coppering is very attractive. I have one question for Force9 about the hull. Why has one section of copper plates appear to have been left off??

  • Member since
    June 2012
Posted by arnie60 on Monday, August 4, 2014 9:45 AM

If you read back through Evan's log you will see that the cut out is to expose the frames which he painstakingly added after researching their size and placement.

  • Member since
    August 2014
Posted by capt-p on Monday, August 4, 2014 2:23 PM

Hi Evan.

Just read through this thread on your Connie build. Fantastic work there shipmate.

Is one I will be following after I finish my Heller Victory, 'Have this in the stash', did not know there were etchings for this ship, looks great.

I believe there's also a wood deck for this ship, the planking though seems wrong, but I have heard that you can ask for any type of plank layout you wish.

Your planking is superb.

Will be following this now I have found the site.

Cheers capt-p

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Monday, August 4, 2014 7:58 PM

Thanks all for the positive vibes!  And thanks to Arnie for jumping in to clarify my exposed framing.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Monday, August 4, 2014 11:54 PM

Hello all...

I should jump in here to lend my own perspective on the color of the copper sheathing...

In addition to the variation found in the old jar of pennies, I was influenced by some cursory research into the production of copper sheets by Paul Revere.  Thank goodness for Google and Wikipedia...

Most of you already know that Revere provided the first copper sheets made in America and used on the Constitution.  He recognized an opportunity to launch a new industry and invested in an old ironworks in Canton that could utilize the adjacent river for the necessary power to turn the gears of the rollers.  Revere had sent his son to England to glean what information he could on methods for rolling copper.  This info combined with his own experience in working with forging of copper and Iron (and of course silversmithing) gave him enough confidence to proceed.  Benjamin Stoddert, the Secretary of the Navy at the time, was encouraging domestic sources for vital military materials such as copper sheathing and offered to help fund Revere's initial effort.  The US Government provided $10k and the first batch of raw copper for processing into sheets - an early example of federal subsidy of the military industrial complex.  There were no domestic sources for large quantities of copper, so England and other overseas sources were needed.  These were obtained in various quantities and levels of "purity" which certainly introduced variation in color.  Metallurgy in that day was clearly a far cry from what we have today and obtaining the consistency and quality needed for many modern applications would be unlikely.  

Secretary Stoddert preferred that Revere use a "cold rolling" method for flattening the copper through a series of heavy iron rollers into thinner sheets.  He felt that this would harden the material for greater strength.  Paul Revere, however, successfully argued for a "Hot Rolling" method which would anneal the copper as it was flattened through the iron rollers with a final cold rolling pass to add some strength.  This approach, however, introduces "mill scale", which is heavy oxidation on the surface caused by the recrystallization of the metal under heat.  The final cold rolling would help to  reduce the scale problem and give the sheets a better finish.  The heating of the metal would further introduce color variation in each batch - especially when a consistent temperature is not applied.  Revere used plentiful New England hardwoods to heat his "furnace" instead of coal as used in England.  This likely introduced more color variation than the copper sheathing imported from England.

Finally, it was common practice for the shipyards to store the copper sheets in open sheds to allow some natural oxidation that would help flake off any remaining mill scale.  This period of "weathering" would also introduce wide color variation as different batches were stored for different periods before use - like the old pennies in the jar.

I think it highly unlikely that any ship of the early 19th century was ever sheathed in shiny copper of consistent color.  Even when first applied to a new ship on the ways, you'd have seen a patchwork of color and tone in the underside copper plates.  That is essentially what I've tried to depict.

All of this brain dump aside, I readily acknowledge that all of the choices made by modeler's for representing the copper plating is good by me... A nice even coat of copper paint on the hull produces a beautiful effect.  The use of copper tape seen in some of the newer builds is also a great approach - absolutely gorgeous stuff.  I just prefer the patchwork effect - purely artistic license.

I almost proceeded to apply a final verdigris wash over everything to give that nice weathered effect.  But at this juncture I've decided against adding any weathering effects to this representation.  No rust, no barnacles, no green copper.  My build will be fairly "pristine"... This is not an instance where King Neptune waved his powerful trident and lifted a vessel dripping with moss and salt water out of the blue gray sea, shrunk it down to 1/96 scale , and deposited it on my mantle.  Neither will I get caught up in "scale" black and "scale" white... I'm merely trying to represent the design and configuration of the great ship as she appeared in battle against HM frigate Guerriere on August 19, 1812.  

Thanks again to all who show an interest in my build and thanks to those who help stimulate deeper discussion on the various elements of this project.

Evan

  • Member since
    August 2014
Posted by capt-p on Wednesday, August 6, 2014 9:36 AM

Are should have looked more closely at your threads , you already know about the wood decks .

Cannot find however the etchings you used for the stern.

capt-p

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