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Heller Soleil Royal (WIP)

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  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Monday, October 26, 2015 2:00 AM

I don't know if you see this build or not dave , but it is worth a once over , it's in german and I think he is one of dafi's mate's .,  plastik noch eine soleil royal hellar 1/100. he goes into some pretty detailed rigging .

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, October 26, 2015 8:50 AM

Thanks for the input, guys.

When I was assembling the hull halves, I drilled out the holes for the tiny plastic eyebolts (totally wimpy and would never hold up to the tension of the shrouds) and installed blackened brass eyebolts through the hull, bent over and firmly glued with CA.  The eyebolts are plenty stong enough now!  But, the channels are less than 1/16" thick and about 1/2" wide...I'm not gonna tempt fate by drilling pins though those super-thin boards.  I'm hopeful that the majority of the stress from the shrouds will be upon the eyebolts, and the channels will mostly get pressure TOWARD the hull, instead of up...like John said, channels act similarly to the saddle of a stringed instrument, with the chainplates taking most of the strain like a bridge and bridgepin.

That said, I also need to point out that I have absolutely no intention of using the shroudloom or whatever...Since my second model ship I've run my own shrouds and ratlines. 

*Steve, thanks for sharing that German thread...I've looked at it before.  It's worth mentioning that the builder of that SR actually did use the shroud and ratline loom!  Good on him, but so far I prefer making them myself in-situ.

Yep, Anderson does say that the type of chainplates used in that timeframe could be either/or....actual chain, or long bars.  If I'd known that before I started, I might have used chain and pinned it into the hull (as I did with my Golden Hind, yea those many months ago)...now that I have a hull bristling with eyebolts, I think I'll just go ahead with the faux plates made from black rigging line.  The examples I've seen look pretty good.  Basically, trying to make them from scratch would be terrifically time-consuming, and attemping uniformity of each part would be an exercise in frustration.  That kind of punishment is not why I like to build models! :)

Anyway, I'll try to get a few prototype chainplate revisions done this week, and when I find a method that I like, I'll proceed thusly...updates to follow.

Thanks!
Dave

 

 

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     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, October 26, 2015 11:51 AM

For what little it's worth, I made the chainplates on my model of the frigate Hancock out of silk thread. Nobody's ever commented one way or another on them.

Just use some good, hard-surface thread - and paint it afterward. It might be worth trying making them out of brass or copper wire, mimicking the "thread" trick. If you pass the wire over a candle, it probably will become soft enough to tie into the necessary configuration.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, October 26, 2015 1:56 PM

On the subject of channels and pin rails.

I wouldn't offer specific advice to you, Dave as you are building more plastic sailing ships than I. I also sense I've exhausted my advice capital, understood.

Over the years, with plastic sailing ship models, one of the failure modes over time on the shelf is the pin rails coming off. If they are glued on with old fashion tube glue; my only reference to anything more than a couple of years old. When it happens, it's a nightmare because all of the lines belayed to them go slack and pull off in different directions. Getting them back where they belong, clamped and glued is a task.

It doesn't happen so much while rigging as it does when the lines get brushed against on otherwise tensioned later.

The same in my experience applies to the channels. I think the best way to avoid that is the afore mentioned "Stradivarius" approach. The bridge has little do do with it, the tuners at the scroll and the pegs on the tailpiece take all of the stress.

To the contrary, sailing ship models usually start by securing the lower deadeyes to the channel. The chainplates get added, or not on one other WIP around here, as visual trim pieces that don't solidly connect to the lower deadeyes. Would there be a way to do that? Sure, if you've preestablished your anchor points for the chainplate lower end, and can connect the strop around the deadeye to the upper end, if possible completely loose to the channel. I'd think that a piece of wire, glued into a hole in the hull, run up through the channel, stropped around the deadeye and then back down and twisted around itself would work pretty well. I don't think they are one of those things the viewer focuses on too much.

Good luck whatever you decide- I am excited about the rigging.

I recently read another interesting tip regarding ratlines. Using the template card behind the shrouds- a must- tie every fifth one and then go back and infill. It would seem to minimize the usual problem of compounding the stress inward from the sides as you tie.

 

Cheers,

 

Bill

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, October 26, 2015 6:55 PM

GMorrison, that's good advice about the shroud/ratline phenomenon....I've sometimes had the problem of the shrouds being fouled, or otherwise pulled out of alignment, during the tying of ratlines.

One other thing I've battled with is this:  After attaching a shroud to the appropriate tension (foremost shroud first), I'll alternate sides, but then as I get toward the aftmost shrouds of a particular mast, sometimes the foremost shrouds will have slackened up?  Has anyone tried working the shrouds from aft to fore, and does it eliminate the problem?  Has anyone else had that problem?  I believe the shrouds are supposed to loop over the mastcap (and stack up) in order from fore-to-aft, don't they?  So if I want to tension them aft-to-fore, I should run them all over the masts in the correct order, but then attach them with tension in the reverse?

Boy, that sounds really corn-fusing, doesn't it?
Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Wednesday, October 28, 2015 9:42 AM

Dave...save yourself some real headaches.  Try this simple trick.  Set the first shroud from one side, around the mast then back to the opposite side.  Then set the rest in side to side fashion as normal. This simple trick secures the mast from flexing under strain from one side being set over the other.  The shroud will then be the first and placed under the rest...hiding your trick.

Start by siezing the first shroud, go up through the top, around the mast(Make shure you loop with the shroud in front). Then down to the opposing deadeye.  Once glued...follow by siezing the second shroud..up through the top, around the mast and then back down to the same side, taking its place as the third shroud.  Siez the paring shrouds under the top.

One other thing..set a temporaty for stay to counter the action of the shrouds and backstays.

 

Rob

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, October 28, 2015 2:30 PM

Well, to each his own. I wouldn't do it that way, but we all know how weird I am.

In real practice, the only pair of shrouds that starts on one side and ends on the other is the odd-numbered one (assuming there's an odd number of shrouds on a given mast). The others are in pairs, up and down on the same side.

Some books do say that odd-numbered shroud should go all around the masthead and down the other side. Others say it should consist of two separate ropes, port and starboard, cut-spliced together with the splice going over the masthead. On 1/100 scale the difference probably isn't worth fussing over.

In a real ship, prior to the very late nineteenth century, one feature of the rigging is the big stack of loops over the masthead, just above the top. Those loops get special treatment (at least in British and American practice). They're wormed (a lighter line is wound around the big rope to fill in the spaces between strands), parcelled (a strip of canvas is wrapped around the bight, making it noticeably thicker), and served (finished off with a tight, spiral-wound layer of light line). Then the whole thing is covered with tar. The result is a stack of heavy loops that goes a third or even halfway up the masthead.

This is one reason why experienced modelers hate those "pre-formed ratline assemblies." There's just no way to set those...things...up that reproduces the big pile of loops.

On my little model of the frigate Hancock (which is, I'm embarrassed to say, my most recent square-rigged ship) I imitated the appearance of the wormed, parceled, and served shroud loops by giving the loop a thick coating of artist's gesso just before putting the loop over the masthead, then painting it off-black when it dried. I'm pretty happy with the result.

The procedure I generally use goes like this. 1. Seize a deadeye into one end of the line that's going to be the first two shrouds. 2. Test fit the shroud up through the lubber hole and around the masthead, and mark where the loop needs to go. 3. Make the loop, by seizing the shroud to itself. Make the loop tight enough that it barely goes around the masthead. 4. Drop both ends of the shroud pair (one with the deadeye on it, the other without) through the lubber's hole and bed the loop firmly on the masthead. 5. Seize the other deadeye into the second shroud.

Then go on to the other side.

The temporary stay running forward from the masthead is a good idea - up to the point. I don't worry if the mast leans a tiny bit backward when the shrouds are done; then I can tighten the shrouds a little by setting up the stay really taut. (That's how it was usually done in real ships.

In my experience, one of the most challenging jobs in rigging is getting all those deadeyes lined up in a nice, straight line. That means judging the tension on the shrouds so they're all consistent. I know of no guaranteed trick for doing that. (Some folks make simple jigs to hold the deadeyes the right distance apart. I haven't tried that.) What makes particularly difficult is that it has to be done quite early in the rigging process, and in my case that means my fingers are badly out of practice. I usually end up sacrificing more than one pair of shrouds because I didn't get them tight enough.

The good news is that when you're done with all that you'll have a mighty impressive start for your standing rigging. Dave, you've done this several times before; I think you'll get most, if not all, your shrouds right the first time.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 4:37 AM

dave I've been re-reading this forum again [ for the 10th time ] could you please tell me what colour wash , you used over the blue and gold stern and side pieces . the effect is really nice ,........steve

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 8:27 AM

Steve, I use Burnt Umber oil paints for the *wash*....it adds a nice effect of texture, shading, and artificial "patina" in my opinion.  It's my go-to post-paint finishing application.

BTW, still trying to figure out how to handle my deadeye strops for the chainplates...I had all the deadeyes on the foremast channel chainplated in, but I didn't like the lack of uniformity that I imparted into my annealed wire "beckets" (?) at the bottom...the looked uneven, and I couldn't live with it, so I removed them all and have been trying to either a) find a different method that doesn't involve buying a lot of expensive after-market strop rings; or b) fashion a jig so I can get them all the same.

Time is still an issue, but I'm hoping to make some progress soon.

Thanks!

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 11:17 AM

Dave..take a trip to your local JO-ANN's and visit the julary making area.  It is a plethera of items to refashion into what you need.

 

Rob

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:36 AM

Thanks, Rob!  I have some materials on hand, but I think if I go to Jo-Ann (there happens to be one near my place) I could get some more ideas of how to proceed.

I have been making revisions to my original idea, but they always come to the same obstacle:  Using annealed wire, I always have two tag-ends of the wire to *hide* or twist away somewhere, but there's nowhere in the deadeye assembly that offers a hiding place for the wire ends!  I'll keep trying...

I did find these deadeye strop rings on cornwallmodelboats website, they are the right size and shape for my deadeyes, but the are split at the bottom (where the chainplate would attach)...not sure if I would have to solder that part closed??

 

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Thursday, November 12, 2015 9:51 PM

Dave,

You might want to try these strops from Ages of Sail located in CA.

http://www.agesofsail.com/ecommerce/chain-4408-03-chainplate-strops-for-7mm-deadeyes.html

They are completely enclosed, come in packs of ten and are about $2.01 a pack plus shipping. They have them in 7, 5, and 3mm sizes. I've used them and love them because I did not have to pull out the soldering iron, etc...

Hope this helps bud,

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, November 13, 2015 5:55 PM

Steve-

You Rock!

I just ordered some packs of 7mm and 5mm for my lower deadeyes...I'll take your word for it that they're good stuff.  And it's great that they are enclosed!

Hopefully this will get me moving onto the next step! 

Thanks a bunch, my man!  I'll let you know how they work out.

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Friday, November 13, 2015 8:52 PM

Dave,

No problem bud, I hope they work out for you. Another cool product are rigging hooks that come in 5mm lengths. 6 to a pack and the same price, $2.01.

 

http://www.agesofsail.com/ecommerce/4403-01-photo-etch-rigging-hooks-5mm.html

Or you can get these plastic hooks from Chuck. What's cool about these is that they come in 5,4 and 3mm sizes. You get 138 for $11.00!

http://www.syrenshipmodelcompany.com/boxwood-deadeyes-and-specialty-blocks.php#!/~/search/keywords=Hooks&offset=0&sort=relevance

These can be used not only under the tops connected to the bottom portion of the strops for your futtock shrouds, but also for a number of of other places you will need hooks, like for yard tackles and winding tackles, etc.

 

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2014
Posted by kpnuts on Sunday, November 22, 2015 1:58 PM

Hi I don't know if it's of help (as I don't know what chainplates are ) but dafi do a fairly comprehensive set of etching for the heller 1/100 victory, I've looked but couldn't see chainplates, but maybe they call them something else, just an idea, as I want to see what you do so I can pinch your ideas when I do mine, oops did I say that out loud.

  • Member since
    February 2011
Posted by cerberusjf on Monday, November 23, 2015 2:13 PM

Yes Dafi do some remarkable photo etch for the 1/100 Victory, probably not 100% accurate for Soleil Royal and may not fit if the channels are different widths..

You can see his work here:-

http://www.dafinismus.de/gallery.html

I think it makes a big difference to the kit and am strongly tempted to get some for my future Victory project.

I'm interested in what his treatment of the decks are too.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, November 23, 2015 3:32 PM

Right there on the website, about three pictures down. The one with the penny.

Those are beauties!

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 7:47 PM

David she's wonderful. I finally got my eye's repaired so I can see all your detail and I could read what your doing. I can finally start working on ships again. Nice my friend.

Rod

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, November 26, 2015 9:06 AM

Rod, I'm so glad you approve of what I'm doing with her!

Haven't heard from you in a while, my friend.  It's great news that you are able to start working on your models again!!  Congrats!  I can't wait to see what you show us next :)

 

Quick update on progress:  I ordered a bunch of the Amati Brass Deadeye Strops that Steve recommended from Ages of Sail.  They are perfect.  Only thing is they backordered a lot of them, so I only got a portion of them installed so far.  I first blackened the parts with Blacken-It (love that product, need to learn what it's made of so I can get it/make it myself for cheap)....attaching them to the deadeyes can be a little messy, because they have to be bent, wrapped around the deadeye, and then re-shaped to fit.  But it's not hard at all to get them back into shape. I'll take some pics when I get the remainder from Ages of Sail and outline the technique I'm using for chainplates.

Happy Thanksgiving, all!

David

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Friday, November 27, 2015 1:09 PM

Hi David, building up your deadeyes is the only way to go on such a nice model such as yours.  I will be waiting to see the pictures on how they turn out.  They will be subperb no doubt.

Rod, welcome back old friend.

  • Member since
    March 2014
Posted by kpnuts on Tuesday, December 22, 2015 5:02 PM

 Hi all I've read this again (making lots of notes) when I build mine (chrissy present) I am going to use the thread and blocks and tackle in the kit ( one reason, my missus won't allow more money spent on it, the other why should I when you pay for a kit you shouldn't need to more than double the price to finish it) no disrespect dave, you are doing an amazing job, and have the cash to go the extra mile, but I will be pinching all your ideas (sorry but there it is)

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, December 24, 2015 10:37 AM

I can't wait to see your SR construction, kpnuts!  Please share it with us as you embark on your journey!  :)

I've been waiting (impatiently) for my backordered deadeye strops to arrive....Katie at Ages of Sail has assured me they were shipped last week, so I've been watching the mailbox each day....when they arrive, I'll take photos of how I'm attaching the lower deadeyes to the channels, for any who wish to see it.

I'm glad you've been reading this WIP, and hopefully some of the stuff that's been posted here will help you with your build.  I go back through and read stuff from here occasionally to remind myself of certain aspects.  I've also been keeping lots of notes during my quest; I have two separate notepads (one for painting/construction, one for rigging, etc.) that I keep details of the steps I take, especially in areas where I deviate from the instruction sheets (which is common)...

Anxious to get back to working on her, and now that I'm off work until the 4th, I should be able to get some stuff done...even if the deadeye strops don't show up, I guess I can start doing prep work on the masts and tops.

Thanks again!

David

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2014
Posted by kpnuts on Thursday, December 24, 2015 10:50 AM

Thanks dave, you can rest assured I will be posting as soon as I get my sweaty hands on mine (although it may take some sweet talk to start another, what with the Citroen and the Thermopylea taking up so much room and neither anywhere near completion) I find I need to have a few on the go at the same time, normally not a problem but with those two being so big and this one is a fair size may take a bit more than sweet talking.

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Thursday, December 24, 2015 8:10 PM

dave how are you finding the 7mm deadeye's , not to big ??

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, December 25, 2015 7:49 AM

Steve-

Actually, they are a little big for scale (I think)....it doesn't bother me a lot, but I think they could be smaller.  I went with 7, 5, and 3.5 for the shroud deadeye sizes, for the sake of proportion to each other (and because they closely match the sizes of the orginal kit deadeyes).  If I could have found 6, 4, and 3 at Model Expo I might have gone with those, but I bought what they had available at the time.  Works for me, but I think the more strict modelers of the world might think they're too big.

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Friday, December 25, 2015 3:17 PM

thank's for answering dave , I agree with you , modelling should be first and foremost , the enjoyment in making the model, to your own satisfaction .a lot of work goes into those deadeye's ,can't wait to see some more picture's of your beautiful build.

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 6:44 PM

Quick rant:

So I ordered my deadeye strops from Ages of Sail on the 13th of November.  They accepted my order and did not notify me whatsoever that more than half of my items were out of stock.  It wasn't until I received my shipment that I noticed it wasn't all there.  So I contacted them, and was told they should be in stock with a week, and would be shipped to me immediately.  Each week I emailed them to see if they had arrived, but no luck.  Until Dec 11th, and when I asked, the response was that they had just come in, and they would need a day or two to sort through the order before shipping out backorders.  I assumed they would have come by now, so I emailed again this morning, and was told that they are preparing to ship them today...two and a half weeks after they got them in stock.

Very disappointed.

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 8:46 PM

yeah! that would get you a little peeved , but as a matter of interest , are the one's you got , what you thought they would be .

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 9:04 PM

Dave,

Considering that I was the one to recommend Ages of Sail, I feel bad about it now. Even if they do not, I apologize for recommending them.

I feel a bit gun shy now to tell you that Syren has the 6, 4 and 3mm sized blocks you need. However, considering that they come in packets of 25 and run $6.75 for the 6mm, that can add up rather quickly. 

I was doing a block and deadeye count for the Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark that is on the horizon. That is after I finish the Catalan Ship. Anyway, I counted 294 blocks and 208 deadeyes that I will need. I have not figured out how much line I will need yet, I plan on getting to that once I pick myself off the floor.

Again, I am sorry that Ages has dropped the ball on your order.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, December 30, 2015 1:53 AM

Chuck Passaro, aka Syren Ship Model Company, is an ethical man. His website tells how many blocks of each size he has in stock. He's always a pleasure to deal with. 

 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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