Another 1/96 USS Constitution - third time's a charm (I hope)

Looking at the draft drawing vs. model; the quarter deck and forecastle deck carronade locations seem way off on the model.

Assuming that the carronades and bulwark construction would be based on  stanchion locations which in turn are extensions of the frames; and that the closely paired stanchions in the drawings are locations for carronades: the drawing's locations more or less centered between the guns below makes the most sense to me.

Note on the drawing that the entry steps lead uo through a port on the drawing. And again, that centers them between two 32 lb guns. 

No problem moving the chesstree.

I suppose the easier thing a modeler could do to revise stuff would be to rebuild the bulwarks.

Bill

Jose Gonzales

 My contention is that Revell got the gun deck gunports right, except that they added the bridle ports at the forward end of the gun deck, and then added guns at those locations, this last of which is incorrect.

The "model vs draft" is real interesting. I would suppose that Revell did do a good job of laying out the gun ports according to the draft! But what about according to the Hull model? The layout is different. Anyone care to comment on what he real ship might have looked like?

Jose,

Your drawing depicts exactly what I am saying.  Placement of the deadeyes on the foremast channel, if done as shown in the drawing, would seriously restrict the 3rd and 4th caronnades on the spar deck.  In addition, it would also be difficult to properly affix the links and chain plates without interfering with the gun deck doors (especially the full height doors provided on the Revell model).  While I was able to get what looks like relatively even spacing of the deadeyes, it is somewhat different than that shown in the drawing.

Great read on the Hull model and the masting & rigging of her.  I may have to find a copy of that book.

Bob

Hello all,

I photographed my model in profile, then aligned it with a drawing based on the original drafts by William Doughty, a draftsman working under Josiah Fox, the "Inventor" of the original 6 superfrigates:

model vs draft by Jose Gonzales, on Flickr

As you can see, the gun deck gunports on the Revell line up very well with the original drafts of the Constitution as launched. Even the steps running up the side of the ship are very similar. My contention is that Revell got the gun deck gunports right, except that they added the bridle ports at the forward end of the gun deck, and then added guns at those locations, this last of which is incorrect.

The chains and the spar deck gun ports are another matter. The chesstree through which the main course tack lines run is placed differently - see the orange line. The chainplate patterns and deadeye locations are slightly different. The gun ports are different because as planned, the constitution did not have solid bulwarks on the spar deck. 

These differences don't bother me much - spar deck bulwarks changed throughout her career and are easily modified. But the gun deck gunports did not move - these were built in as part of the frames, and could not be readily moved.

 My beef with the model's configuration has to do with the foremost gunport on the quarterdeck and the rearmost gunport at the forecastle (foc'sle for short). There is only a sliver of a bulwark forward of that foremost gun port, barely enough to anchor the breach ropes for the carronades mounted, and certainly not enough to rig any tackles. To extend the bulwark, I would have had to move the entry port further forward, and also move the steps forward. I improvised, but I don't particularly care for my solution. I will post pics shortly.

Cheers,

Jose

In a previously posted thread about the Hull model (http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/138375.aspx) Force9 (Evan) includes a link to a partial copy of Olaf Eriksen's outstanding reference, "USS Constitution - All Sails Up and Flying". Here is the link for your convenience: http://books.google.de/books?id=XYUWBpxFZN8C&pg=PR5&dq=uss+constitution+all+sails+up+and+flying&hl=de&ei=hi7NTZDUB4_6sgaqy9m6Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=uss%20constitution%20all%20sails%20up%20and%20flying&f=false

Mr Eriksen opens his book with an assessment of the Hull Model, and how he believes it was built. In short, he believes it was started by one crewmember as an individual project, but when the crew learned that their commander was departing due to family matters shortly after their victory over Guerriere, several members of the crew hastily tag-teamed to finish the model. Lots of shotcuts were taken, So while the model itself is a weath of information, Eriksen concludes that there are also flaws due to its hasty construction. If true, then i would have to suggest that among these flaws may explain the status of the gun deck ports.

Even our late Professor Tilley, while admiring the Hull model, noted the missing detail in the model's hull (no ship's wheel, crude guns, no pin rails) while also lauding the rigging job.

i hope you have a chance to view the extract from the Eriksen book.

Cheers,

Jose

I have three hulls, one I'm working on, one for spares and the third that I will modify to correct Revell errors to the extent possible, such as the oversized hatch.

I am studying the spare hull to see if I can take the spar deck bulwarks down to deck level and rebuild them so the guns are in alignment. If that turns out possible to do I will adapt hull three accordingly.

Jose Gonzales

 

That foremost port, which still exists on the current vessel, was originally cut into the hull by Cmdr William Bainbridge after he took command of the ship from Isaac Hull.  But he did not cut it as a gunport, but as a bridle port to assist when mooring or docking the ship. It could be used in a pinch as a gunport but it did not have a gun permanently installed during her active service that I know of.  

I chose to model the ship from the Hull era, closing up that port, as you have.  

Well Jose, I tend to agree wit you; in that my current Connie build depicts the for gun ports closed and no guns behind them (post Hull era). I have 15 guns on deck, not the Revell 16!

The problem I have with that configuration is that the Hull model, with it's 15 guns and 15 ports, has guns deployed in the most forward ports. ON THE HULL MODEL THERE ARE GUN PORTS AT THE LOCATION WHERE WE THINK THE BRIDEL PORT WAS CUT A COUPLE MONYHS LATER BY BAINBRIDGE! Think about that; either we are wrong, or the Hull model is wrong.

Hi all, 

That foremost port, which still exists on the current vessel, was originally cut into the hull by Cmdr William Bainbridge after he took command of the ship from Isaac Hull.  But he did not cut it as a gunport, but as a bridle port to assist when mooring or docking the ship. It could be used in a pinch as a gunport but it did not have a gun permanently installed during her active service that I know of.  

I chose to model the ship from the Hull era, closing up that port, as you have. 

I would be cautious in using the Model Shipways model to create a model of the ship as she appeared during her glory years in the War of 1812. The model, while beautiful and accurate, depicts her as she appears today, not her 1812 configuration. Note her raised spar deck bulwarks, her enclosed waist, the simplified 3-window stern, and her rigging. The stem and head timbers (her schnozz) is massive and the trail boards don't have the dragon decor but instead the red white and blue shield. 

I have started work on the head rails. I chose to use the Revell parts. For a while I contemplated removing the depicted tarred canvas screen and replacing it with netting but after looking at examples of models which had netting replaced I decided to stick with the canvas. Pics soon.

Jose

The real problem with the Revell kit is that the spar and gun deck gunports are in the wrong place.  Check the plans and look at the gunport spacing.  You will find it a challenge to get the deadeyes properly (unless you use Revell's tiny plastic parts).  It is a very prominent mistake in the foremast/foredeck area.  Pretty bad there - guns zig zag between the two decks and there is almost no room for 5mm deadeyes (proper size).  If you are going to modify something on another ship, look into that before you start.

Bob

I have three kits, one for spares, the one I'm working on and a German kit that I will build later,after using this one as a tutorial. On the German kit I will shorten the hatch. I don't see how to eliminate the extra guns. I used Scale Decks overlay on the current build but will try to lay in a real wood deck on the German build...with the proper size hatch!

On my current build I closed the first gun ports to get to 15 guns per side.But the spacing is off compared to Model Shipway drawings.

[quote user="Rick Sr"]

[quote user="Rick Sr"]

The main spar deck hatch on the revell is way out of scale, too long. The Model Shipway plans are 1/96 and they are old. The main problem with Revell is the main hatch on the spar deck and number of 24s on the gun deck.

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It would be alot easier to shorten the main hatch, than to reduce te gun ports to 15!

I used the Scale Decks overlay and it's looking pretty good as work progresses. I think I'll leave that over sized hatch alone. ( I have another Constitution to build and will correct this on that one)

All of the gun port covers had to be adjusted with an exacto knife to fit properly into their openings.

I bought HiS gun carriages since they have an extra piece to assist in mounting the guns to the deck. With the Scale Decks overlay, it will be wood to wood, just great for Gorilla Glue.

In running through my n scale train parts box, I came across an old brass engine bell from an American 2-6-0 locomotive...perfect fot the Constitution.

Working on the gun deck, going over Model Shipway plans and they show the messenger pulley as Bob has on his build, needed a magnifying glass to pick up on it.

You mentioned that before. I added some evergreen strips on the bulwarks(/) below the gun deck, running bow to stern and ran five I beams from port to starboard with a .042 of an inch  rise off of those. I drew the outline on the Ibeams and sanded at low speed with my dremel following the lines. It is barely visible but is there, hidden mostly by the spar desk.

I can't remember if you are using a wood deck overlay. That'll complicate things for shortening the opening, which is really an area of no deck flanked by a pair of catwalks.

I'd guess the boat beams are too few and too small as well, Easy fix.

And last, if you really want to do something that'll upgrade the whole thing, add camber to the deck.

That's easy to do (LOL) if you take some brass square tubing pieces the width of the ship or a little less in 4 or 5 locations and bend it a little to have a scale 3-4" crown in the middle. Being careful to locate it where it won't interfere with things on the gun deck like guns; glue it to the underside of your deck and clamp until it's dry.

[quote user="Rick Sr"]

That's a good idea! I don't know if these will be seen or not.

The main spar deck hatch on the revell is way out of scale, too long. The Model Shipway plans are 1/96 and they are old. The main problem with Revell is the main hatch on the spar deck and number of 24s on the gun deck.

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That's a good idea! I don't know if these will be seen or not.

The main spar deck hatch on the revell is way out of scale, too long. The Model Shipway plans are 1/96 and they are old.

I really cheated on the capstan on my Victory. I measured the height between decks, found three little wooden thread spools that were about the right length and diameter. Stained them brown, and glued them to the decks as I stacked the decks up. Funny thing, can't even see them.

I took a dowel and drilled out a hole in the gun deck of corresponding size , but in a snug fit, added glue (gorilla wood glue) , then set the post into the gun deck by pushing down on the spar deck. Perfect fit. I also put a dollop of glue on top of the column. Then I waited 24 hours for the glue to set, then took the spar deck out to finish the gun tackles. Don't forget to put wax paper on top so you don't glue the spar deck to the column. The dollop of glue conforms to the bottom of the soar deck.

Most common method I have seen is a simple post running from floor to ceiling, but that is pretty hard to do when you add one deck at a time and still need to route the cable.  An alternative would be to mount the pulley to the bow.

GM: I got your joke about the sty/manger.  Just went with it, since I don't have a better name for it!  "Pulley-holder-thingy" doesn't have a very nautical feel to it.

Bob

Rick Sr

I found a picture of the gun deck with a capstan, as well as the one on the spar deck. I made up a bass wood capstan for the gun deck, and used candy foil wrapper to simlate the brass around the capstan. Wait until you tackle the Victory. One on each of the three gun decks plus the weather deck!

 Force 9, you, Jose and Bill have really been a help. Thanks to you all. I know it must be a pain. None whatsoever.

Rick Sr

Cool beautiful work. I see you have cables through both hauser holes. What is the second cable for? Are the two white structures the water closets?

Constitution carried four or five anchors with her.  I planned to hang four of them, so hence the second set of ropes.

One of the things I have been unable to find so far that is on the Model Shipway plans is something called a "stopper bill" forward of the bowsprit bits.

Made my own stopper bills (black things with the screw on top that the messenger cable goes around) from pictures off the internet.  If you go to google maps and zoom in on the Constitution, you can take a "personal tour" through the ship.  Screen-shotted the images from there. 

What are the black chains running beside the messenger rope and the anchor cables on the other side?

Chains were not used to anchor the ship, but I thought that having them there for other reasons would just look cool in the stopper bills.

Bob

Cool beautiful work. I see you have cables through both hauser holes. What is the second cable for? Are the two white structures the water closets?

One of the things I have been unable to find so far that is on the Model Shipway plans is something called a "stopper bill" forward of the bowsprit bits.

What are the black chains running beside the messenger rope and the anchor cables on the other side?

On the spar deck MS shows a total of four cutters, with only one mounted over the main hatch, the rest hanging on the boat davits. I will place the large cutter over the main hatch, with a smaller one inside the large one, as per Revell, with four on the davits.total 5.

I found a picture of the gun deck with a capstan, as well as the one on the spar deck. I made up a bass wood capstan for the gun deck, and used candy foil wrapper to simlate the brass around the capstan.

I had wiring for leds running through a mount pedestal, the forward one, and my precious little grand daughter pulled the wiring out of the hull....grrrrr. Force 9, you, Jose and Bill have really been a help. Thanks to you all. I know it must be a pain.

Revell took a lot of shortcuts, probably to keep costs down and must have figured no one would see the gun deck very well.

I'm using Gorilla wood glue, good stuff, but pinning anyway as I don't trust that glue either. It's a great wood glue and seem sto stick well to plastic too...we'll see.

Awesome! Good recovery!

here is what I did:

Bob

I will post a picture tonight with instructions.

Bob

I think Bob's frigate has one.

Yes, oink.

A sty? As in  hog sty???

You can add a sty up forward of the bitts as well.

That is what I have done too. I considered altering the bulwarks but do not think that is a practical option. I Glued the kits gunports in the closed position and filled with putty, then extended the gun stripe to hide the alteration.

On the Model Shipway plans where the number 1 guns are on the Revell kit, MS shows two water closets for Warrant Officers and Midshipmen. RHIP!