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1/96 RVL Constitution Build, reference and source guide.

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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Derry, New Hampshire, USA
Posted by rcboater on Friday, January 26, 2018 11:01 PM

On the topic of glues-- plastic model "glues" are really solvents. They work chemically-- by causing the surface of the two parts to melt and fuse together. That's why they tell you you have to scrape the paint off- to have bare plastic against bare plastic. So it is no surprise that liquid glue didn't bond the cannons to a painted wood surface.

CA glues form a mechanical bond between the items. They will hold better on a rougher or porous surface, as the glue has something to hold onto. That's why CA is so good on wood. a gentle pass with sandpaper will leave plastic parts with tiny scratches, wich improves CAs ability to grab. CAs weakness is in shear strength-- so try not to hit your gun carraiges from the side- that is the way to knowk them loose!

I was a little surprised the Tamiya thin liquid cement works so well on the waxed line. It must be dissolving the wax, allowiing it to flow into the fibers of the thread, and then evaporating, leaving the wax to harden again, locking the knot in place. Tamiya cement does evaporate quickly- always cap it after use.

Finally, I agree with the others who have posted that hinged gunports are not accurate for an 1812 Constitution. But it is your model, you should do what you makes you happiest. Whatever you choose to do, the value of this thread is enhanced-- others who come along behind you will now be alerted to the fact that if they don't want gunports, they should decide early enough to fix the little mounting holes before painting.

I have already learned from this thread and will continue to follow it...... Thanks for taking the time to share your build!!

-Bill

Webmaster, Marine Modelers Club of New England

www.marinemodelers.org

 

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Saturday, January 27, 2018 2:57 AM

Bill, good to hear that my simple build is helping others. I did sand the bottom of the cannon wheels but not the wood deck.  I have had a lot of experience using ca's on my RC planes but had never tried it on plastics. I do believe your right about how the Tamiya thin is reacting on the rigging line, it ends up looking very good to me. 

First 2 pics without the gun port lids, to me give an appearance that somethings missing. Plus like I said those holes and hinge cutouts really show. I think it looks better with the lids in place.

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Saturday, January 27, 2018 6:34 AM

rcboater

On the topic of glues-- plastic model "glues" are really solvents. They work chemically-- by causing the surface of the two parts to melt and fuse together. That's why they tell you you have to scrape the paint off- to have bare plastic against bare plastic. So it is no surprise that liquid glue didn't bond the cannons to a painted wood surface.

CA glues form a mechanical bond between the items. They will hold better on a rougher or porous surface, as the glue has something to hold onto. That's why CA is so good on wood. a gentle pass with sandpaper will leave plastic parts with tiny scratches, wich improves CAs ability to grab. CAs weakness is in shear strength-- so try not to hit your gun carraiges from the side- that is the way to knowk them loose!

>>><<<

-Bill

 

Bill, I agree with all that you said here. But going beyond that I am questioning using mettle I-bolts on the deck of ships instead of the kit supplied plastic. Off the deck the bolt is tied to a line that has an upward force (up the mask). That is a shear against the mettle/CA/plastic bond. Now, on an antenna CA'd to an aircraft wing will bond nicely; till it receives a nice bump! So I tend to conclude that a solvent bond would be superior to a CA bond in such a situation.

 

On the down side, in the event of a broken bolt, it would be easier to repair a pulled out mettle bolt than to drill and replace a plastic one. The CA verses solvent bond would not be a question on an I-bolt on the side of the ship were mettle would be better!

 

Then, how many of those deck plastic I-bolts ever get broken?

 

 

Ben

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Saturday, January 27, 2018 6:59 AM

Ben, from what I have read about the plastic eyebolts is the ring snapping from tension. I am using all brass eyebolts that I blackened. I glued 4 into gun deck using the 560 glue and there not going to come out easily. Plus no residue, I am liking this glue more and more. I had used it for years on my RC plane and boat canopies and it has stood up to some serious abuse. Dale

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: San Diego
Posted by jgonzales on Saturday, January 27, 2018 7:37 AM

Hi Dale,

I'm enjoying you build, thanks for sharing. I respect your choice to include the hinged gunport lids. I built my first two "old Ironsides" with gunport lids  and am building my third without them, and there is something menacing about the image of closed gunports slowly opening and the guns running out, as if a ship is "baring it's teeth" that is now lacking in my current version. 

I have also switched to metal eyebolts. I must say that in my first two builds, I never had  plastic eyebolts break on me; the plastic solvent cement I used held them just fine. 

Keep up the great work!

Jose

Jose Gonzales San Diego, CA
  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Saturday, January 27, 2018 8:33 AM

Hi Jose, tks. Another reason I am glad I went with the brass eyebolts is option of custom bolt lengths. I noticed on the gundeck that the added thickness of that wood scaledeck was not allowing for much plastic to plastic adherement for the kit eyebolts.  I am with you, the brass eyebolts also look alot nicer. Did you use the kit rigging blocks and would you suggest using AM blocks and deadeyes ?

Just placed another order with Syren for more rigging line. I am going to be making my own ratlines. I do not like the kit ratlines. The kit ratlines are same thickness throughout. I know the vertical line ( don't know the names of them yet) are thicker than the horizontal. But didnt the ratlines overall thickness decrease each level ?

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, January 27, 2018 10:08 AM

The brass eyebolts look better in my opinion. It's probably true that a plastic bolt glued to a plastic deck is a better bond. I've had them break off at the deck fairly often, esp. on the larger scale models.

At this point I would also like to recommend a couple of additional strengthening operations. There's not much in ship modeling that's worse than having a belaying pin rail, or a channel with all of the shrouds rigged, snap off. It can be put back but it's never quite the same.

When you glue the pin rails along the inside of the bulwarks, after installation drill holes from the outside through the side and into the rail. Take short sections of steel wire such as a short piece of paper clip, and insert in with CA. Cut them off flush on the outside and patch the ends. Two per rail

Channels are the shelves on which the lower deadeyes are attached. On a ship, the extreme upward force that the shrouds generate from the force of the wind bending the masts forward is transferred through the chain plates down to the hull. The term channel probably derives from the longer term chain gunwale. The force on them on a ship is primarily compression against the side of the ship. But on a plastic model, the glue joints take over. It's possible, and the practice on a wood model, to anchor the chain plates at their bottoms to the hull with a stout pin, then run a wire from the top of the chain plate through the channel and wrap it around the lower deadeye. Then whatever strain is put on the shroud, and it's just the tightening during rigging, is properly distributed.

On a plastic model the chain plates usually don't do much more than get glued on and look the part. The channel itself gets glued to the side of the ship, and the stress from the shrouds pulling upward creates a shear force on the channel- hull connection.

Pins really help here. The installation is one-sided so it's slightly different than the pin rails, but equally important.

The assemblies above that are reffered to as shrouds (vertical) and ratlines (horizontal). There is indeed a great difference in the diameter of the ropes involved. Whatever force is driving a big heavy ship with a wide beam and deep draft through the water is being put into the hull through the shrouds. While there are a lot of them, it's a lot of force. They might be 8" lines, 3" or so in diameter. And smaller as the amount of sail on each mast decreases.

The ratlines on the other hand are only there to get sailors up the mast to handle sails. If you study the drawings or the sailing ships you can still find, the ratlines are only there to the extent that they are needed for climbing, and often do not span across all of the shrouds, or appear at all on masts where the yards are lowered to the tops for handling sails. 

How to add them to the shrouds is a whole discussion. I like to use thread, and actually tie them to each shroud. But there are other options for materials, and other ways to attach them to each shroud.

One last thing. The path to install a shroud is as follows. One end is anchored to the channel via the deadeye and lanyard assembly it is seized to. The shroud runs up to the masthead. It passes through a hole in the top, goes around the mast on top of the crosstrees in a fore to aft direction but not around the base of the top mast, and returns back down to the hull on the same side of the ship. It gets gammoned or lashed to itself just under the trees.

Then you switch sides and install another pair of shrouds on that side. Continue back and forth, fore to aft. If at the end there's an odd numbered shroud, then and only then does it go up one side and down the other.

What you get at the top, over the trees, is a pretty big stack of rope, sometimes about as tall as the mast.

I hope that makes sense.

 

Bill

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Philadelphia Pa
Posted by Nino on Saturday, January 27, 2018 12:33 PM

GM,

    Your detailed recommendations and related experience  pinpont why I joined this forum.

      "... Shrouds, pin rails, and eyebolts...". best advice ever.

 

    Thanks.

        Nino

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Saturday, January 27, 2018 1:35 PM

Tks, Bill. Appreciate you explaining in detail. Now I also know the right nomenclatures too. I will do the pinning, I was already planning on doing some pinning on the mast assemblies along with putting brass tubing inside masts where ever I could.   Dale

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, January 27, 2018 6:44 PM

Let us not skip over the use of epoxy glues for strong joints as well.

To my thinking, epoxy is the best eyebolt glue a person can use for deck eyebolts of whatever material.

For channels and pinrails, they can be 80% glued with epoxy, but tacked into place with either plastic solvent glue or CA.

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Sunday, January 28, 2018 6:25 AM

I have been using ca's and epoxies for years on my RC stuff. Had not thought about using it on my plastics.

CapnMac, is there a particular epoxy brand/type that seems to work best with the plastics ?

Gentleman thank you for all your valuable inputs, I do truly appreciate your contributions to what has become a good resource and information build thread. Just as my original intention for it to become were.   Dale

  • Member since
    February 2016
  • From: Western No. Carolina
Posted by gene1 on Sunday, January 28, 2018 10:00 AM

Dale, your Conny really looks good & I am anxious to see it. I do like the gun port doors & when did they use the double doors like I put on my Conny? 

   I do use CA glue on my metal eyebolts into a small hole to fit the bolt. Never had them break loose. I never use the plastic eyebolts. They break to easily. I like epoxy, but for little things it is too much trouble to mix. I use it to glue the 1x2 wood into my hull & I used to use it a lot in building wood ships.

   GM, that was a really great post that covered a lot of topics. Names of ship parts have drifted away from me over the years & it is nice to have some of them back. Unless I forget them by the time I am back with the Alabama. 

     Dale it is nice to hear that you have the Alabama now. I have a second one coming & will do more with it.

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Sunday, January 28, 2018 12:01 PM
When I want a strong bond I generally use multiple types of glue like Ca and solvent on the same join. But epoxy is certainly the way to go for strength; but I generally make mess of it and can never seem to get it mixed right, Does anyone know of some easy to mix products that would work well for modeling?

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Sunday, January 28, 2018 12:52 PM

Gene, I "think" the split gun lids came about during the 1835 refit.

Carl, I have used Hobby Poxy for years. But for my wood, styrofoam, Carbon Fiber etc.. not on plastics though and I am going to experiment with it using some empty sprues. It is a simple 50/50 with multiple dry times available. When mixing small amounts like just a drop or 2 I have an old plastic cutting board (dollar general special) that is great to mix on.

Got all the Gunport lids done. I like the look.     

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Sunday, January 28, 2018 5:19 PM

I've found the best way attach brass eyebolt's is put them in the deck , before the deck goes in . that way you can bend the length up under the deck and glue it , impossible to come out .

 

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Monday, January 29, 2018 8:47 PM

Good suggestion Steve, tks.

I finally have the gundeck, gunlids and paint touchups to gun deck done. Putting on all those gunlids is one of those do a few take a break. So most my build time this weekend was put into them and I like the looks. 

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Monday, January 29, 2018 9:07 PM

Here is one that can be magnified, sorry bout that 

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Monday, January 29, 2018 9:29 PM

Got the spardeck installed. Some seam sanding and a bit of touch up paint to do, then I can lay down the scaledeck.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, January 29, 2018 10:02 PM

Sharp. Remember that the guns had an eyebolt each near the center of the ship, from which the tackle was rigged to run them in.

That tackle should be rigged for a ship in action. But it doesn't often get modeled.

I believe the bow chasers were 18 pounders.

Here's a chart I think is pretty accurate on the subject of bores and shot weight.

 

 

The bore would be bigger than the shot diameter, but not by much.

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Monday, January 29, 2018 10:47 PM

Thats some great info. I had asked Mr. Morrison for some cannon ball size info. Thank you sir for taking the time to post this. For a reference point the 24lb cannons at 1/96 would use a 1.5mm cannon ball.  I am going to go into more detail on my Spardeck and riggings. I will add that eyebolt for the cannons and some tackle.

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Thursday, February 1, 2018 7:57 AM

Still working on getting spardeck ready for scale deck. Should have it done today.

Something that I think we should touch on is favorite tools and why. I have robbed a lot of my building tools from out of my fly tying tool kit. I teach DAV's how to tie flies and flyfish, so my tools have been used alot and have never had to replace them yet. In the pic from left to right. 

First is the line threader, this one is better than any sewing version you can buy. Plus it is nice in that it has such a long reach. Works well on most any size line. Specially the small stuff. Second is pin files, not a neccessity but nice to have. Third is a nice selection of tweezers. Forth, another flytying tool is the small very sharp scissors. Fifth pin vise, must have for ship builders. Sixth razor knives. 6&7 are sprue cutters, the first one that looks like tweezers is the best I have ever used, it cuts close, so less parts trimming and its sharp. Works well on all size parts. At top more flytying tools, spring clamps, they come in multiple sizes and I find are more convenient that forceps, but I still do use forceps. 

 

  • Member since
    February 2016
  • From: Western No. Carolina
Posted by gene1 on Thursday, February 1, 2018 9:33 AM

Dale, this has been a really great thread, post , build on yoir Constitution. I never know what to call these writeups.It really looks great & I like your tools too. You need to tell me about the threaders, I haven't used them I don't think. 

   How do you like your wood deck by now? Did you stain it or leave it natural?

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Thursday, February 1, 2018 4:47 PM

Tks Gene, that coming from guys like you means alot to me. The correct terminology for the type of threader I am using is  Bobbin Threader and they do come in various lengths and cost around $10 with shipping.  A Bobbin is another handy tool. IE: Syren rigging line comes in a zip baggie and you need to put it on a thread spool. You can buy bulk bags of small thread spools on ebay for just a few dollars. The Bobbin holds the spool and has a stem you thread the line through so no loops coming off spool and twisting etc...

I did not stain my scale deck. I did feel it was a bit light in color.  What I did was apply a coat of MM wood to plastic deck, this darkened it up some and seemed to make the details stand out more. I varied the shade and this to me gave it more of that stoned look.

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Tuesday, February 6, 2018 9:23 AM

Got scale deck done on spardeck. Working on getting all the eyebolts in place.

  • Member since
    February 2016
  • From: Western No. Carolina
Posted by gene1 on Wednesday, February 7, 2018 9:07 PM

Dale, that really looks great. You are doing a beautiful job. I am even thinking about a Revell 1/96 United States & a Scaledeck deck for it. I have an Imai/ Monogram 1/120 United States. I got a good price on ebay & I almost only want to build larger ships & either Imai or Revell or Imai knockoffs.

   I am going to use 560 glue on all my eyebolts from now on. Don't know why I didn't already. I use it for most everything already.

  Boy, your Connie looks good.

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Wednesday, February 7, 2018 9:47 PM

Tks Gene, I am with you, anything smaller than 1/96 and my arthritic digits and eyes dont like it. Wish there was some larger than 1/96 plastic ship kits available. 

I tested some of that 560 glue on several eyebolts. Let them sit overnight, unless you want to do damage there not coming out. I like that it left no signs of gluing around them. I am planning on using it more myself. It cleans up so easily. 

My BlueJacket Connie manual and blueprints came several days ago. Wow is that quit the project to build, do not think I will be doing one of them anytime soon. The manual has a lot of very interesting historical data and claims that BlueJackets Connie is in the 1812 configuration. I can see where the large blue prints of rigging are going to be a lot of help.  I will be off Fri,Sat and Sun. will get a good bit done on the spardeck. I did get the life boats and cradles built. Did a mock setup of cannons and the boats, I think it looks good. Will post more pics soon.     Dale

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Thursday, February 8, 2018 4:10 AM

wonder where the military terminology head came from  Big Smile

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Thursday, February 8, 2018 7:11 AM

LIVIT

 

My BlueJacket Connie manual and blueprints came several days ago. Wow is that quit the project to build, do not think I will be doing one of them anytime soon. The manual has a lot of very interesting historical data and claims that BlueJackets Connie is in the 1812 configuration.      Dale

 

 

Dale, you may have noticed my post to David's Cutty Sark thread about how I got so involved in Research that I never built my CS. The Blue Jacket Connie could end up being a life time build; but so could a Revell Connie. That is why I am going to attempt to do a simple OOB build with minimal research. I might even have time for some other builds before I retire from the hobby!

I find it interesting that that Blue Jacket calls their Connie "the 1812 configuration". The "the" should read "a"; because the configuration may have changed daily. Unless you can nail down a specific point in time with a dated painting or description there is no way of knowing the configuration on any given day. It just depends!

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2017
  • From: Asheville, NC
Posted by LIVIT on Thursday, February 8, 2018 4:18 PM

ShipWreck, I have done that same research as you with some of my RC Warbirds. Later in my building I got into doing my markings etc.. as to what I liked and not  historically correct. Your correct I should of said "A possible 1812 configuration"  I have noticed a good bit of conflicting information on the Connie and read numerous discussions about same. I am for sure building my Connie in a early 1800's "LIVIT" configuration. 

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:42 PM
Dale, you are good. It is BlueJacket that seems to be making an all inclusive 1812 claim.

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

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