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HMS Victory build

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 10, 2005 6:33 PM

Ideas anyone for how to create rigging for the ship's cannons?

Thanks

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 10, 2005 6:14 PM
Yeah I don't think I'm going to paint my gun muzzles red ochre. I don't recall any of the period paintings referring to red gun muzzles unless they meant they were glowing red from excessive firing. The tompions could very well have been red, but the kit doesn't include them so there's no need.

I've gotta pick up a new fine pine vise bit, I broke mine yesterday working on drilling out every gun port's support chain hole. I plan on using black thread instead of the wire for the gun port lids and want to anchor it in the hull rather than on the hull. I'm guessing the best method for securing lines like this would be to pull the knot close to the hull and use a tiny drop of CA to secure it? Then paint over it or file it down if it needs it?

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 10, 2005 3:26 PM

Also see:

http://www.hms-victory.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=44

Color scheming information- ex: remember to paint gun muzzles red

*note- Victory during 1805

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 10, 2005 3:04 PM

Here's a website which you guys might find to be heplful:

http://www.jotika-ltd.com/Pages/1024768/Victory_06.htm

What I would do for a kit like that.....

what a beast...takes the breath away

*note-1805

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, December 9, 2005 4:52 PM

Modelbauer 14 - Welcome to the Forum!  I think you'll find it useful and enjoyable - though it's inhabited by some rather odd people.

Modern hobby paints designed for plastic kits are, generally speaking, excellent products.  There's no chemical or mechanical reason to do anything to styrene plastic in order to get paint to stick to it.  Lots of modelers do, however, like to start with a "primer" coat of some neutral color, like grey - especially if the object in question is in several contrasting colors.  (That Heller Victory is molded in several garish colors, like bright yellow, bright red, and black.  A grey primer coat gives a thin finish coat a fighting chance of looking even throughout.  More enlightened manufacturers nowadays mold their kits in grey plastic.)  The primer doesn't have anything to do with making the paint stick; it just provides a uniform base color. 

I haven't used Plastic-Prep, but I believe it's a cleaner.  It's not a bad idea to wash the parts in some solution like that before you start, to remove any mold release that's left over from the manufacturing process.  I confess, though, that in a modeling career of 49 years I've often failed to do it - with no noticeable ill effects.

There are quite a few ways to simulate wood grain on plastic parts.  We had a pretty good discussion of the topic recently in a thread headed "Need advice on painting plastic sailing ship's deck."  I've just moved that thread to page one of the Forum; it should now appear just below this one.

Good luck.  It's a great hobby.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 9, 2005 3:52 PM

I'm realtively new to constructing ship models, especially the old fashioned ones with sails, riggings, etc. Regarding the HMS Victory,(which is a ship which has always interested me greatly) what are the best  painting precedures? That is, what exactly do you pre-coat it with after you apply the plastic-prep? Also, how do you simulate wood effects with plastic without ruining the model? Just slapping on some deck tan doesn't exactly make the model look convincing. Please educate me!!

Thanks!

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Friday, December 9, 2005 1:58 AM
 jtilley wrote:

Regarding color - there's some room for taste and interpretation.  At the time in question, an act of Parliament dictated that all rope supplied to the Royal Navy be soaked in something called "Stockholm tar."  I've never seen Stockholm tar, but it apparently was a rich, medium brown.  That's what the running rigging ought to look like (not pale beige or white).  The standing rigging generally was coated (after it was in place, in some cases) with an ugly concoction containing tar and lampblack which, if it wasn't pure black in color, must have been pretty close. 



It also depends on where the ship got its cordage.   Ships that served in the East Indies often acquires from local sources the much prized manila cordage.   Manila cordage is superior to European cordage, but it is prized above all for its nearly white nature color, which is thought to give the ship a particularly smart apparence.    Manila cordage must have therefore escaped Stockhole tar treatment.



  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 9:49 PM

All those plastic sails were good for was airbrush practice, I would like to rig her fully sailed, but I think it's more than I can chew right now.

First, model since childhood, yes I must be bloody mad, and start it when the wife was 3 months pregnant! Seemed like a good idea at the time.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 6:30 PM

Vapo,

Looking great. You are a brave one to tackle that ship at this point in your eh....sailing ship modeling career.

Just one comment. Just curious as to why you went with the bee color scheme and not the pink and green?Tongue [:P]Shock [:O]

Keep it up. Your BOAT, as I know is about ready for the STRINGS and PLASTIC SAILS. Don't forget that these STRINGS normally go vertical, but I think just tying a bunch to different places will make it look busy enough for anyone who doesn't know about these ol' BOATS.

Robert

  • Member since
    October 2004
Posted by gleason on Thursday, December 8, 2005 5:08 PM

That it is....

Nice work and great pix...

Hope mine turns out as good.

<Gleason>

Fargo, ND

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 2:26 PM

Ok, posted a couple of new pics up on my site, I know there is some work still to go, but it is definately starting to resemble a big boatWink [;)]Tongue [:P]

They say the devil is in the details, well I think he brought friends! seems the smaller the job, the longer it takes to do properly!

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 1:41 PM
He. had better be a she as per the reviewsWink [;)]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:44 AM

Vapo,

She looks different eh? So you decided to go with the hot pink and lime green color scheme!

I hope you went ahead and did the masts in polka dot and the yards in checkerboard as per the Heller instructions. Eh, those frenchies! What a sense of humor.

Don't forget to post a pic of the little modeler to be when he arrives.

Robert

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 11:15 PM

Ah JT, who needs a level head at a time like this, I'M BUILDING A BOAT!,lol

I do agree that the smaller ones will not be needed for quite some time, hence my disspleasure at myself for ordering the wrong ones. The "hull" is complete(bar a few touch ups) All the decks are in/on, all the canons are done and in/on(thank god!)

Superstructure is done apart from the toilets, I pre made the boats(along with tiller and other details first and put them to one side ready), all that is left is the "touches" on the upper and poop deck, plus any bits that need touching up around that area. The "planks" (sorry) that the chain plates fix to are on and painted. Soooooooo, I put the trhee lower mast sections in tonight.

Had to write it small, because I know someone will shout at meBlush [:I]

So the lower shrouds could well be started before Christmas,

She's realy starting to take shape, and it's getting harder to control the enthusiasm, and urge to rush. Even my wife as she walked past said "wow" tonight. I'm lucky that my job often allows a full day or two to work on her, that of course will change soon.

As far as the sermon goes, preach on dear boy, preach on! I can say without fear, that had it not been for the calming words of this forum that I may have lost my way to square rigged utopia many moons ago,lol.

I'll try and get some pictures up this week, as she does look very different from the burnt offerings last seen.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 9:36 PM

I hope the following doesn't come across like pontificating, or "I told you so," but I'm a little uncomfortable sitting by watching while people spend lots of unnecessary money.

When it comes to aftermarket parts, my suggestion is:  1.  Come up with a list of the parts you think you're likely to need in the fairly near future.  2.  Study the suppliers' websites and figure out which of their products look like they'll work for that purpose.  (You probably won't be able to tell for sure from the descriptions and pictures.)  3.  Order a dozen of each, and find out which ones actually will work.  4.  Order as many of those fittings you think you'll need over the stretch of a month or two - with a dozen or so extras to compensate for losses and damage.

If you're currently working on the hull of a ship model, you're months - maybe years - away from doing the running rigging.  There's no reason whatever to spend hundreds of dollars on blocks and deadeyes that you won't need till sometime in 2007.  Those companies are used to doing mail order, and give good service; waiting for deliveries won't slow you down significantly.

It's also unnecessary to decide in the early stages of such a project just how much rigging you're going to install.  As we've established earlier, there's plenty of room for personal choice and taste there.  The difference between rigging a model of a full-rigged ship with the basic running rigging and all the sail gear is a difference of hundreds of blocks.  To order all of them when you've just started work on the model doesn't make much sense.

The first steps in the rigging process involve the lower shrouds and stays.  They require the biggest deadeyes and hearts in the ship.  The lower deadeyes, being secured to the channels and the hull by the chainplates, do need to be considered early in the construction process.  Those are the first fittings to buy.  If you work at typical speed, you won't need the corresponding upper deadeyes for several months. 

Throw the Heller rigging instructions away.  The people responsible for them didn't understand rigging, and in any case the instructions are geared toward the fittings that came with the kit - which, as we've established, aren't useable.  The foldout plans in the Longridge book, if I remember correctly, are reproduced at 1/8"=1' scale (1/96).  that's close enough to 1/100 that you can get the correct sizes of the blocks and deadeyes from the drawings.  (If I'm wrong about the scale of the reproductions, you can either have them enlarged on a copy machine or do the arithmetic to get the block sizes.) 

An eighteenth-century ship-of-the-line had many different sizes and types of blocks in its rigging.  A miniature block that's 3/32" long represents, on 1/100 scale, a block that's about 9" long.  That's a good-sized block, though not an enormous one.  You probably won't need anything smaller.  How many 3/32" blocks you'll actually need will depend on how much rigging you install, but you'll probably end up using quite a few of them.

The smaller the block, the harder it is to work with.  One of the few user-friendly features built into a sailing ship model is that, as a general rule, the higher up you get, the smaller the blocks and deadeyes get.  So the first ones you rig are the biggest - and easiest.  Those 3/32" blocks are tiny, all right - but you probably won't need any of them for a long time. 

I find that three tools are necessary for making Bluejacket blocks work:  a pair of tweezers, an appropriately-sized drill bit in a pin vise, and a small, knife-edged file.  (The latter, unfortunately, seems harder to find these days than it used to be.  I've got a little German one that I bought many years ago, and I guard it with my life.  If you can't find a knife-edged file, the smallest triangular one you can find will probably work.)  It also helps, in the case of the smallest blocks, to have a small hand vise, or perhaps a hemostat, to hold the block while you work on it.

The procedure I use is:  1.  Ream out the hole with the drill.  2.  Break off the casting sprue (if any) with the tweezers. 3.  Clean up the groove around the circumference with the file.  4.  Thread the block onto a piece of wire.  5.  When all the blocks you're going to need in this rigging session (plus a few spares) are threaded onto the wire, twist the ends of the wire together.  That will keep you from losing the blocks during the nexts step.  6.  If you want the blocks to be black - dip them in Bluejacket's "Pewter Black."  Lay them on a piece of tissue paper to dry, then shoot them with clear flat spray lacquer.  If you want them to be brown - spray them lightly with Floquil metal primer, then brush-paint them with a thin coat of brown hobby paint.

I lost count of how many Bluejacket blocks went into my model of the Hancock, but it was well over a thousand.  The first few almost drove me crazy, but the learning curve phenomenon works here as in so many other aspects of the hobby.  When I hit my stride I was preparing an average of two blocks every three minutes.  Once your head and your fingers get trained, it's really not so hard - especially if you start with the bigger fittings and work your way down to the smaller ones. 

End of sermon.  Good luck.

 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 9:22 PM
Well it's certainly drawing closer, but so is mother nature, so the build may well be interupted once we are three! Really not sure what to expect there, not a clue as to how much "free" time I won't have.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 7:02 PM

Vapo,

I can't wait to hear about your rigging expeiences. Let us know, and with photos if possible what you are doing and what difficulties you are having. Oh yes, and successes. After following this thread and others as to your Victory, I am interested to find out how you are going to tackle this one.

Good sewing,Laugh [(-D]

Robert

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 5:11 PM

Well I just got my blocks delivered from Bluejacket, nice and quick.

Two observations, first, a lot of work to make the blocks look good, a few hours with the file.

Second, I'm an idiot! I ordered 3/32 singles, they are damn small !!! I needed 1/8 at most, I guess there were some smaller blocks on board, So I will find a use for them, if I can thread the damn things.

I dropped one on the carpet.....gone to the carpet monster, at least being cast metal, I'll know when the hoover finds it!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, December 5, 2005 12:59 AM

I can see only two possible drawbacks to the fishline Rallynavvie described.  (I assume it's nylon, or some other modern synthetic.)  One - some materials like that are hard to tie into knots, because they're slippery and don't like to assume sharp bends.  But that may not be relevant to this particular material.  Two - as Rallynavvie pointed out, there may be a problem with texture, especially in the larger diameters.  If the stuff looks like it's braided, it doesn't look like rope.

Real rope, in the Victory's time frame, wasn't braided; it was twisted.  As a matter of fact the direction in which it was twisted varied according to the purpose of the particular line.  (We took this up earlier.  Shrouds and stays generally were laid up left-handed; most other lines were right-handed.)  That's why, when ship modelers really start getting into the subject, they start thinking in terms of "rope-making machines."  My little model of the Hancock has more different diameters of line on it than I remember, but they all started out as two sizes of silk thread (plus a few sizes of brass and nickel-chromium wire).  I don't recommend that route for first-timers, though.  My suggestion:  pay some attention to the question of durability (don't use tea or coffee for dye), but concentrate on getting the diameters and colors right.

Regarding color - there's some room for taste and interpretation.  At the time in question, an act of Parliament dictated that all rope supplied to the Royal Navy be soaked in something called "Stockholm tar."  I've never seen Stockholm tar, but it apparently was a rich, medium brown.  That's what the running rigging ought to look like (not pale beige or white).  The standing rigging generally was coated (after it was in place, in some cases) with an ugly concoction containing tar and lampblack which, if it wasn't pure black in color, must have been pretty close. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Greenville,Michigan
Posted by millard on Sunday, December 4, 2005 7:00 PM

For dying rope you might try what I use. I like my running rigging to look a liitle used.I put about 20 drops of India ink in a pill bottle fill up with denatured alcohol.Shake well.Put the rope in for about 15 seconds pull out let dry on paper towel. Than I run it through bees wax seems to work well.I only use Model Expo rope seems to hold up .

Rod

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 4, 2005 3:44 PM
Waxing should be a great method of preservation in theory. I don't understand why people wouldn't think of silk as durable, it's one of the best fibers out there.

However I just had an epiphany with all this talk about different kinds of line: I have hundreds of different weights and colors of braided fishing line. I used to fish a LOT and never really used any monofilament lines, only braided lines like Spectra and the like. The problem with these lines so often was the color, which is white by manufacture, which fisherman said was too noticeable to the fish. So out came many many different colors/hues of braided line in varying weights. I have several different kinds as my sponsor used to supply me with them for free. They should be durable as anything on the market (as their selling point of retaining strength even when grit from the water got into the braid). The only drawback I can see in them would be the lack of texture on most, but at scale I don't think it matters for the rigging.

And once I'm done with the model it will go right into a Lexan case like my other ship models. I think this may be the first model that has cost me more than the case though. I also looked into getting some of the "licensed" oak from the Victory herself. The price isn't terrible for a plank the size I'd need and it would certainly add some more character to the display. I think the oak comes from any of the several refittings they do to her to keep her in good condition, obviously not original oak that has seen the blood of sailors ;)

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Sunday, December 4, 2005 1:26 PM

  I haven't used silk for running rigging, but I do use surgical silk for standing rigging. This can be purchased in bulk from Deknatel, online.

   My oldest, surviving ship model is a wood kit "America". built in 1968, I used waxed cotton for the running rigging, and it is still in great shape.

Pete

P.S. I will be using some fly tying silk on a 1:87 friendship sloop.

PJ

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, December 4, 2005 12:49 AM

The Heller Victory I reviewed for Model Shipwright (longer ago than I care to think about) came with some awful, hairy thread that was dyed a peculiar shade of green.  I have no idea what the firm is supplying with its kits nowadays, but I've never seen any thread packed with a plastic kit that was worthy of anything other than the wastebasket.  Maybe Heller is supplying some decent stuff now, but I'm inclined to doubt it.

I'm a little surprised (though I guess I shouldn't be) that Heller is advising people to dye thread with coffee.  Serious ship modelers found out a long, long time ago that coffee and tea (both of which used to be popular for dying purposes) contain acids that literally eat thread. 

A few years ago I had the unpleasant job of restoring a nineteenth-century ship model whose linen sails (at least I think they were linen) had been died with tea or coffee (probably the former, though I'm not sure).  The sails were literally falling to pieces.  In search of advice I phone a friend who was in charge of fabric conservation at Colonial Williamsburg.  He explained to me that what I was looking at was the phenomenon of "fabric breakage" (as opposed to tearing).  The tea (or whatever) had actually caused the individual fibers in the fabric to rupture.  It had also turned the sails an extremely dark, reddish brown - presumably nothing like what the modeler had intended.  

I normally don't like to condemn materials or techniques; my usual attitude is "to each his own."  But I make three exceptions:  lead fittings, and coffee and tea for dying thread or sailcloth.  (Actually there's a fourth one on my personal list of banned substances:  balsa wood, for any purpose.  But some people seem to be emotionally attached to it.)

Plenty of better substances for changing the color of thread are available.  (I have no idea what inkjet ink does to fiber.  Presumably it's quite durable, but whether it eventually has some unpleasant reaction to the fiber itself I don't know.)  I've had pretty good success with fabric dyes from the arts and crafts store - including the kind that comes in fiber-tipped pens.  But the best solution, in my opinion, is to buy thread that's the right color to begin with.

Ship modelers argue endlessly about the best material for rigging line.  Everybody agrees that, in terms of durability, linen is good.  Unfortunately it's also hard to come by - especially in good colors - and nowadays most of it has "slubs" (nasty little lumps) in it.  Bluejacket sells some pretty good linen line, but only in white - and the smallest diameter is .01".  (Actually that's probably small enough for most lines on a 1/100 Victory.)  

My personal favorite is silk.  Some modelers claim it isn't durable enough, but I've got two silk-rigged models that are more than twenty years old and look good as new.  When I was working at the museum I had the chance to work on quite a few old models that were rigged with a variety of materials.  I wasn't able to see any consistent pattern of deterioration.  We had some silk-rigged models from the 1930s that looked fine, and some linen-rigged ones from the '40s that were starting to deteriorate.  Not being among those who expect their models to last a thousand years, I'm satisfied with silk.  Unfortunately, though it used to be commonly available in a wide variety of colors, it's hard to find nowadays.  (I found some places on the web that sell it, but I haven't tried any of them.)

There is, of course, some inevitable debate about modern synthetic threads in ship modeling.  Harold Hahn, one of the best, uses nylon exclusively in his models and they look great.  Some people worry that nylon will fall apart eventually due to atmospheric polution, but I've never heard of it actually happening.  I have a bigger problem with most of the nylon I've seen, though:  it's slippery, it's hard to tie in a knot, and it just doesn't behave like miniature rope.

Model Shipways (via Model Expo:  www.modelexpoonline.com ) sells some stuff it calls "cotton-poly mix" that (so far) I really like.  It comes in the requisite colors and a wide variety of diameters, seems to handle well, and has a nice lay that actually looks like rope.  If I were doing a project like this I'd lean in that direction.  I rigged my little model of the pilot boat Phantom with this stuff and I'm happy with the results.

Two golden rules in ship model rigging:  1.  If in doubt as to diameter, err on the small side.  2.  If in doubt as to color, err on the dark side. 

As for my building a Heller Victory - no way.  I actually have a very high opinion of the kit; in my opinion (caveat:  I haven't seen all the competition by any means) it's one of the three best renditions of the ship in kit form.  (The other two are the 1/72-scale wood one from Caldercraft, which costs over $1,000, and the cast metal 1/700 one from Skytrex.  Both are British firms.  The Italian and Spanish wood kits I've seen don't meet most reasonable definitions of the term "scale model.")  If I were looking for a major plastic ship modeling project, this is probably the kit I'd pick.  But I built my first model of the Victory when I was about twelve years old (from the old Revell kit - a very good one for its size and age), and by the time I got out of college I'd built at least eight.  By the standards of this forum they undoubtedly were pretty laughable efforts, but no more Victories for me in this lifetime.  Besides, if I did build a 1/100 ship-of-the-line I don't know where I'd put it.  My wife and I (with ridiculous optimism) have picked out a place for my current big project, but I can't think of another place in the house for a three-foot-plus model.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 3, 2005 5:27 PM
I found the heller stuff to be too stretchy for most of the rigging, as far as colour, I used black ink jet ink, it gives that "pitched" look, without being rigid.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 3, 2005 3:13 PM
The list I put together there was simply the verbatim count of fittings that the Heller kit comes with, nothing more. Once I get my hands on some more detailed literature on rigging I'll get a better idea of what I'm getting into. I plan on using that list to start off with since it's not likely I'll use less fittings than that and the $165 price tag isn't so terrible in my mind. If I need more than that load I'll order more, but with the pricing at it is for such parts the hit you're taking is more on postage than in the parts themselves so I prefer to buy in lump sums.

Now for the actual rigging materials I saw they have some lines and stuff. I'm sure I can use the two diameters that came with the Heller kit for plenty of the rigging, and I've already found wonderful show cordage for the cables, but the stays should probably be of weightier material. The tip in the Heller instructions to dye the line with strong coffee actually works well for a medium-dark color, but what are folks using for dark pitch? I also have a cake of homemade beeswax if I need it, a gift from my beekeeper uncle.

Just want to get some of these future details hammered out before I get there in a panic.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 3, 2005 2:39 PM

Hey Rallynavvie, what you would not give to have JT live next doorWink [;)]

Actually, as good as that book is, most of the info I needed and lots of info I did not know I needed, has come from these forums.

Oh Jtilley, you keep knocking the old girl "heller victory"  why not come down of that pearch and build one,lol, don't worry about the difficult parts, we're all here to help youWink [;)]Smile [:)]

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, December 3, 2005 9:28 AM

Bluejacket casts fittings in a material called britannia metal, which is a mixture of tin, copper, and antimony.  It's a light silver color, almost exactly like the old lead alloy that model companies used to use. Britannia, however, is far more durable.  Whether it will last forever is hard to say, but it won't flower and disintegrate like lead does.  (It also costs about ten times as much as lead. That's one big reason why Bluejacket fittings are on the expensive side.)

As I understand it, lead has just about disappeared from the hobby world these days.  Model Shipways uses britannia too, and I think most military miniatures are cast from something similar.

I can't figure out how many blocks it will take to rig a model of the Victory, because the number depends on how much rigging you put on it.  The real ship, with sails ready to set, had well over a thousand blocks in her rigging.  I don't recommend, though, that anybody breaking into the hobby start out determined to include every single line in the rigging of a ship-of-the-line.  My normal suggestion is to figure on including all the standing rigging and those portions of the running rigging that hold the yards in position and make them move.  That means the halyards, jeers, lifts, and braces, plus the basic gear for the spanker (topping lifts, peak and throat halyards, boom sheets, and vangs) and perhaps the basic gear for the jibs and staysails (halyards, downhaulers, and jib outhaulers).  Most people find that's plenty.  When you've reached that point, sit back, take a good look at the model, imbibe liberally of the liquid refreshment of your choice, and ask yourself whether you really want to spend an additional year or so on this particular model or go onto other things. 

There's no need to order a complete outfit of blocks at once.  My normal practice is to order what I figure will last me for a month or so, and when the stock starts looking depleted order some more. 

The number of deadeyes is fairly easy to count accurately.  The numbers on your list sound reasonable.  Again, though, it isn't necessary to buy all of them at once.  If you work at the speed I do, it will take you a month or two to set up the rigging (shrouds, stays, and ratlines) of the lower masts.  (If you've never rigged deadeyes before, be aware that there's a steep but fairly short learning curve.  The first pair is likely to drive you crazy.  By the time you get done with the foremast, you and your fingers will wonder what the fuss was about.) 

If I were building that kit (heaven forbid), one of the big problems I'd have to figure out would be how to represent the chainplates.  I don't remember much about the kit, but if I recall correctly Heller tells you to make the chainplates out of loops of thread.  (I think those loops of thread hanging out of the hull may be the lower links of the chainplates.)  I'm inclined to regard that as marginally acceptable on that scale.  Making them out of wire links would be quite a project - since every chainplate (on one side of the ship) is a different length.  I honestly don't know how I'd do it.  In any case, you need to decide how you're going to represent the chainplates before you order the deadeyes.  I'm not sure the style with the strops cast integrally would work.  The strops may not be long enough to project below the channels. 

You might want to order a dozen of each fitting and take a good look at them, before you lay out the cash for the whole outfit.

Bluejacket's "rope-stropped" blocks have grooves around them (which, in practice, need to be cleaned out with a file before they'll work).  The "iron-stropped" blocks represent fittings from a later period.  They have the strops cast integrally with them.  Generally speaking, they aren't appropriate for 1805.

The new Bluejacket catalog shows only one size of turned brass gun:  1 1/2" long, at $2.75 apiece.  There are seven different sizes of Britannia metal long guns, ranging in length from 1/2" to 1 7/8" and in price from $1.35 to $2.80 apiece.  I've never actually used any Bluejacket guns, but on the basis of the catalog pictures I don't think they're nearly as well detailed or proportioned as the Heller ones.  And I don't think the Bluejacket ones are available in all the necessary sizes.  And the muzzles would have to be drilled out. 

I'm about 99 percent sure that all the Victory's guns were iron.  (The British navy had virtually abandoned the bronze/brass gun by the end of the American Revolution.)  So the barrels would be black.  My recommendation would be to clean up the joints on the Heller guns and paint them black.

You're right:  the Longridge book (or one of the McKay ones) is just about essential for this project.

Hope this helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 2, 2005 10:00 PM
Well lacking anything productive to do with the ship (waiting to decide what to do about all those loops that hang out of the hull still) I went over the fittings to get a list of parts in preparation for the day I order them from BlueJacket. For others' reference (and please check my math if you will):

340 1/8" single blocks
48 3/16" double blocks
40 3/16" single blocks
20 5/16" double block
8 1/4" double blocks
8 5/16" single blocks

50 1/8" top deadeyes
44 3/16" top deadeyes
44 3/16" stropped bottom deadeyes
32 1/8" bottom deadeyes
18 1/8" stropped bottom deadeyes
12 5/32" top deadeyes
12 5/32" stropped bottom deadeyes

I have never ordered from BlueJacket so I'm curious as to what material/color they use for these parts. Also what is the difference between their standard blocks (grooved for strops) and those that are "iron stropped". The ones with the Heller kit look like the former, "standard" blocks on the site. I like the look of the scored deadeyes thus the "top" and "bottom" designation in my list. You could just as easily add the top and bottoms of like sizes and get non-scored deadeyes too. However the "stropped" deadeyes look like they may be the equivalent of those in the kit, or are those chainplates they're supposed to be attached to? I really need to pick up the Longridge book, I know :(

Any other parts I should plan on getting from them? The above list came out to $165 and change and since they come in dozens it leaves for some extras in places. Eyebolts I can make from brass wire like you mentioned. I was interested in their guns. If they look a lot nicer than the botched brass long guns I made up I'd most certainly purchase some 1 1/4" ones to replace the six long guns, and two 1" for the short guns. Of course real brass that small might be a pain to buff up. What material/color are their guns?

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, December 1, 2005 9:46 PM

I don't have any postable photos of the Victory's boats.  You might try the ship's website, which is listed somewhere or other earlier in this thread.  I'm not sure whether she currently has a full boat complement stowed on board, but there might be something useful on that site.

I can't emphasize enough the importance of getting some good books in a project like this - especially in view of how awful the Heller instructions are.  The Victory, fortunately, has been the subject of several - and has inspired several sets of excellent drawings.  In addition to the Longridge and McKay books mentioned above, an extremely valuable one is H.M.S. Victory:  Construction, Career and Restoration, by Alan McGowen and John McKay.  That one is a big, oversized "coffee table book," full of photos of the real ship and paintings of her from many periods.  Mr. McKay recycled some of his drawings from his Anatomy of the Ship book for this one, and added some new ones.  (The McGown/McKay book actually has more drawings than the Anatomy one.  The biggest difference is in the coverage of the rigging.)  Any of those three books should provide enough information about the boats to build nice models of them.  Unfortunately all three are pretty expensive, but I suspect used copies of all of them can be found  on the web.

For anybody confronting the job of rigging a model of the ship, though, I think the book I'd recommend starting with is Longridge's Anatomy of Nelson's Ships.  The drawings in it, by George Campbell, are perhaps not quite as comprehensive as Mr. McKay's, but they're beautiful pieces of the drafting art in their own right.  And Longridge's text is geared specifically toward model builders.  The McKay drawings of the rigging include just about all the information imaginable, but they can be pretty intimidating.  (The isometric drawings of the individual masts, for instance, are mind-blowing in terms of the artistry and geometry that went into them, but rarely do both ends of a line get shown in the same drawing.)  Campbell provides a big, fold-out drawing of all the rigging on one sheet, and Longridge's text describes the lead of each line verbally.  You can literally follow his written instructions as you rig each line.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 1, 2005 8:34 PM
I'll be getting my rigging parts from them when I get to that point sometime next spring. I feel fortunate to have a pretty rudimentary knowledge of a tall ship's standing rigging. The running rigging scares me a little though.

I do agree about the ship's boats being a nice addition to a model. I like the "clutter" shown in that picture you posted. That's how it should look really. Do you have any pictures of the real thing (or mock-ups of the real thing) anywhere? Some good reference photos is all I'd need to get started.

It's too bad I'm not a far more gifted modeller. I was down at my favorite pub (as opposed to the many "bars" we have in Minnesota) talking to one of the owners who is from north of Portsmouth. He's a huge fan of square-rigged ships so I was talking to him about my build. He wanted to buy it off me, or at least rent it for display for some time as part of the ambience at the place. I have to admit it would make a wonderful addition behind the bar but I told him I just wasn't so confident of my skills to have it put on display. This is far more challenging than the USS Wisconsin I was comissioned to build. He said to have him over when it's finished anyway just to get his opinion. I still don't think I'd want to give it up once it's finished, but perhaps if I can get free beer while it's on display there...

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