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Heller Soleil Royal…..the ultimate building guide.

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  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, May 26, 2008 2:30 PM

So let me reopen this thread. After reading all the pros and cons of the heller Soleil Royale, what does the builder actually have to do to improve upon it? That is the one unanswered issue of this "ultimate building guide".

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, May 26, 2008 3:35 PM

That is why I reopened the thread. There has been alot of back-and-forth about the kit's merits and demerits. It was originally opened to be a building guide. So, let's make it the ultimate guide rather than a point-counterpoint exercise that is helpful to the builder. I'd really appreciate that kind of discussion.

Biill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, May 26, 2008 3:51 PM

I have heard a lot of discussions and arguments about this model, one of which is supposedly involves the quarter galleries.  To tell you the truth, I'm not sure that Heller didn't have it right the first time, because as far as i know, the only contemporary painting of this ship as it was completed is found in the works of Jean Berain, one of which can be found at http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Jean-Berain/The-Aftercastle-of-Le-Soleil-Royal-Giclee-Print-C12264266.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/pd--12264266/sp--A/The_Aftercastle_of_Le_Soleil_Royal.htm&h=450&w=337&sz=55&hl=en&start=17&um=1&tbnid=X3osQendqa4ySM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=95&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSoleil%2BRoyale%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

You will note in this image, there are no really open galleries on the quarters at all, and furthermore, the entire ships hull is apparently painted in blue with gold trim, and not just the upper works as is protrayed in model after model!  Jean Berain apparently intended to paint a triptich of this ship, and while he did a splendid job painting the aftercastle and the bow, he only managed to complete a sketch of the stern.  These paintings were commissioned by Louis XIV himself, so you can bet the were pretty accurate!

As for the proportions, I think Professor Tilley is probably correct, in that this ship should be longer, lower, and with greater depth of hull.  A good comparison can be made with a contemporary 'sistership' built at just about the same time is 'Le Royal-Louis' of 1668, a print of which was included in a work for the great Naval Minister Colbert.  It shows a ship altogether lower and leaner (though still covered in fabulous carvings by Puget) than either the Soleil Royal model in the Musee dd la Marine, or the Heller model.  As far as depth is concerned though, it is possible these ships were not as deep-drafted as you might expect when compared to a ship of the line of Nelson's time.  The French Navy of Colbert was largely built (at least initially) to Dutch principles, and the Dutch emphasized shallow draft (using extra beam instead to compensate).  That said, even a Dutch-built ship of this size would draw more than the Heller model allows, so there you are (you might note that 'Vasa' was also built to Dutch principles, though of a somewhat earlier time, so perhaps that ship could be used as a guide to determine the 'proper' draft for 'Soleil Royal?')!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, May 26, 2008 5:07 PM
I just thought of something else... As the paintings (watercolors) and drawings of both bow and stern by Jean Berain are the same size/scale, and we know how many guns and their arrangement (28 guns lower deck, 30 guns middle deck, 28 guns upper deck and 20 more on the quarter deck and fo'c'sle), it should be a relatively easy matter to 'fill in the blanks' in between to get a good idea of the proper proportions of 'Soleil Royal' above the waterline at least (we used to call this 'mensuration' back in the Army).  I have also had a look at some plans of other contemporary French three deckers, and i must say, they really look very top heavy to me, and most likely sailed pretty badly too (see Boudriot, 'Les Vaisseaux 74 a' 120 Canons').  For certain, I know that the French Admiral Tourville absolutely hated the 'Royal Louis,' and refused to take the ship to sea until directly ordered to by King Louis XIV....... And looking at the plans, I can see why!
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, May 26, 2008 5:29 PM

searat12,

Thank you for that link to Berain's painting! I think that I will paint mine accordingly. I also read in an earlier posting that many of the dimension problems could be solved by raising the scribed waterline by at least 1 cm. I will try that as well.  Thanks again!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 7:29 AM
Back when i was a lad, i couldn't find (or afford!) the Heller 'Soleil Royal,' but I was able to locate a 'Wappen Von Hamburg,' and because I liked the paint scheme of the 'Soleil' so much, I painted it all blue with goldleaf wales and decorations, just like the painting by Berain.  Looked pretty good too, though obviously not as impressive as the 'Soleil Royal!'  Good luck with your model!
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:03 PM

searat12,

I finished repainting my Soleil Royale in the scheme found in Berain's painting. I also raised the waterline by 1 cm. It looks great and more proportionate! Thanks for that link!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:32 PM
post some pictures so we can see Smile [:)]
"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Thursday, May 29, 2008 2:05 PM
 warshipguy wrote:

searat12,

I finished repainting my Soleil Royale in the scheme found in Berain's painting. I also raised the waterline by 1 cm. It looks great and more proportionate! Thanks for that link!

Bill Morrison

Not a problem... and I bet it looks beautiful too!

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, May 29, 2008 3:28 PM

It does look beautiful! I will post pictures after I finish building the kit. I have dedicated my summer vacation to building her.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Thursday, May 29, 2008 8:45 PM

I set mine in a waterline dio after i finished her to get around the hull dilema. Enjoy your project Bill, and looking forward to the finished product.

 

Michael

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, May 30, 2008 10:13 AM

Michael,

Thanks! Did you use the painting by Berain as a guide for painting?

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Friday, May 30, 2008 12:40 PM

Bill,

 I did not, unfortunatley i did not do enough research on her before i discovered that painting, and by then it was far to late, but i am quite pleased with my scheme. Here's some links of her to view.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/safemaster/solielroyal32708944800x600.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/safemaster/solielroyal32708932800x600.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/safemaster/solielroyal32708897600x450.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/safemaster/800x600.jpg

Michael

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, May 30, 2008 1:02 PM

Michael,

You did a terrific job!

Bill

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Netherlands
Posted by Grem56 on Friday, May 30, 2008 2:28 PM

A beautiful piece of craftmanship Michael, really excellent.

Julian Thumbs Up [tup]

 

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  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Friday, May 30, 2008 3:23 PM
amazing work michael!
"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    June 2008
Posted by gsharpsword on Friday, June 13, 2008 11:35 PM

I recently purchased an Aurora-Heller 1976(?) kit on Ebay of the Soleil Royale, 1/100 scale.  Not too happy with the results when I received it, but salvagable. The seller had started the build -  just the hull and bowsprit-  and had cracked, broken and clumsily reglued several of the bowsprit pieces. I can fix those, and dissassemble the hull gluing, starting over. Not to mention the fact that the hull was painted in glossy enamels, which I now have to strip and repaint. It's well worth the effort, and a legacy build for my kids.

Here's my big HELP request, if anyone can be of service.  The instructions he included in the kit are MISSING the last 4 pages (25-28), unless there are more, as far as I can tell. that wold be starting with Step 61 - Sail Rigging, the Rigging/Pulley table, Railing and Deck Plans, the Parts List, and Painting Schema pages. Does anyone have a PDF of those pages that they would be willing to share?  Or can make a photocopy for me that I can pay for postage and copying charges?  Any help would be appreciated.

 

Thanks to the group ahead of time

 

Scott Schneider   ( I can be reached at swhitebull@aol.com

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, June 14, 2008 3:39 PM

gsharpsword,

Please send your address to bmorri6409@sbcglobal.net and I will send you a copy.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    July 2008
Posted by DrGarry on Sunday, July 27, 2008 12:44 AM

G'day all:

I'm an ingenue tackling SR partly to keep up my motor skills, to while away the time between IT contracts, and just to have a pretty model at the end. So far its taken me a year to paint, and I am about to start construction. Historical accuracy I am not fussed about. What I would welcome are some practical tips and guides, as this thread title suggests. Some of the questions I'd like answered are:

-  Are there any major goofs in the instructions? eg. The instructions have steps D, E and F; whereas you'd be better off doing F, E then D.

- Do the English instructions actually reflect the French? I've noticed that the French talk about 0.3, 0.6 and 0.9 rigging thread, while the English talk of 0.25, 0.3 etc.

- I've heard that the Heller rigging machine is useless(?).  (I'm not looking forward to the shrouds and ratlines, believe me.)

- I presume their are better rigging threads to use. Any idea where to get those.

All the best and thank you for your time. 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, July 27, 2008 3:32 AM

First, welcome to the Forum!  I think you'll find it's an informative, fun place; the population includes some rather strange people, but most of us are relatively harmless.

My comments earlier in this thread make it clear that I'm not a fan of this kit, but I don't really have any more to say about that and I'm sure the rest of the Forum is sick of hearing my opinions on it.  I will say that - unless they've changed since I built mine, which is certainly conceivable - the English version of the instruction book is a scandal.  It clearly was written by somebody who neither understood French nor had attempted to build the kit.  (First tipoff:  the author of the English version thought "le mat de misaine" was the mizzen mast.  It isn't.  It's the fore mast; the mizzen mast is "le mat d'artimon.")

The diagrams are enough to show how the plastic parts go together, but I strongly recommend throwing the rigging instructions in the garbage, and buying a copy of Dr. R.C. Anderson's The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast.  It contains everything you need to rig a model of any ship (of any major nationality) from that period - including line diameters - and it's available in a very reasonably priced paperback reprint.

My personal opinion is that the various jigs for rigging the deadeyes, shrouds, etc. are junk, but some people disagree with me.

I rigged mine with silk thread, but that was a long time ago; I'm sure it's obtainable today, but I have no experience with any suppliers of it.  The American supplier Model Expo ( www.modelexpo-online.com ) sells some "cotton-poly mix" rigging line that I like, and another American firm, Bluejacket ( www.bluejacketinc.com ) sells linen, the most traditional of ship model rigging materials.  I have no idea how easy or difficult it is to get their products in Australia; I've heard the shipping charges on such stuff can be murderous.  Australia has many first-rate ship modelers; there must be some good, easily-obtainable rigging line there.

Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:17 AM

Welcome to the Forum! I agree with JTilley; it is a fun place.

As for painting, I chose to paint mine according to the paintings done by Jean Berain for King Louis XIV.  Although many people question the historic context of the ship in question in those paintings, Berain worked directly for Louis XIV as the designer of the decor of his ships; I feel that he is reliable as an eye witness to what Soleil Royale looked like.  The two paintings include a detail of the stern galleries and hull, and the bow section.  For me, they served as a painting guide for the hull, and a detail guide for the stern galleries.  You can find the link in an earlier posting by Searat12 or bydoing an "Images" search for Soleil Royale.  Good luck!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, August 6, 2008 8:01 PM

So, let me get the controversy over this kit straight . . . there are extant only two possible primary sources that purport to show what the Soleil Royal looked like.  These include the model in the Musee de la Marine in Paris, and Berain's paintings.  These paintings were done by an artist who had the actual ship at his disposal; the model was built years later and is more properly considered a secondary source.

Reading the various postings, it appears that the problems with the kit include the following.  First, there seems to be an issue about the proportions of the hull; according to critics, the model looks top heavy.  Second, there appears to be too little deck furniture.  Third, the top masts appear too long.  Fourth, the spars appear to be to large in diameter.  Fifth, the manufacturer did not include parrels with which to hold the spars to the masts.  Sixth, the guns appear too small.  Seventh, the stern galleries are closed: they should be open.  These problems have been referred to as "historic inaccuracies."  I'm not sure whether I am forgetting anything.

I am not too sure about the first problem.  French naval architecture of the 17th century was heavily influenced by Dutch designs, which included ships of shallow draft.  There are models of ships from that period showing very similar proportions to those of the Heller kit.  I have seen a diagram of the stern of the French 2nd rate Le St. Philippe of 1721 showing a very shallow draft in relation to its above-water height.  And, if a given builder takes the advice of an earlier posting by raising the scribed waterline by 1 cm, the model appears to be more proportionally correct.  In the absence of actual builder's plans, I might be convinced of the proportional accuracy of this model.

I also am not too sure of the second problem, the lack of deck furniture.  Given the lack of any evidence showing the deck furniture of Soleil Royal, this problem seems to me to be speculation at best.  Specifically, what deck furniture is missing?  If I, as a ship modeler, were to add deck furniture at educated random, there is no evidence that I would be depicting this model any more accurately.  Please, I am not attempting to criticise those who made this point; I wish them to be more specific.

The third, fourth, and fifth problems seem easy enough to rectify.  Dr. Anderson's book is a big help.

The seventh problem (the closed stern galleries) seems to actually be the most controversial.  However, Berain clearly shows them to be closed.  For those unfamiliar with Berain, he was an artist who was appointed by King Louis XIV to be responsible for the external decor of his warships.  The King also commissioned him to paint portraits of the stern and the bow of the Soleil Royal.  This renders him a skilled eyewitness to the ship apparently modeled by Heller.  The bow section shown by Berain very closely resembles that of the Heller kit.  The stern shows some detail differences from the kit but the stern galleries are clearly those modeled by Heller. Again, in the absence of actual plans or any other contradictory evidence, I am inclined to accept the stern galleries as modeled by Heller as being as accurate as is reasonably possible.

I admit that my assessments are also speculation; the paintings only show the stern and the bow of this ship.  There is no real evidence of the other details of the Soleil Royal.  That being said, how sure are we of the reported "historical inaccuracies" of this model?

One comment earlier in this thread raised the issue that we sailing ship modelers are unique in that we tend to accept flaws in our kits that aircraft and armor modelers would not.  However, we know the details of the P-51, the Bf-109, the Tiger I, the M-4 Sherman, or any other aircraft or tank in all of their variants; we have no such references for most sailing ships ever built.  We have to be more accepting of what the manufacturers offer unless we have primary source material to refute their efforts (i.e: HMS Beagle).  We do cry "FOUL" when we can!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, August 7, 2008 12:09 AM

I really don't want to get into another big argument about this kit.  Everybody who has any interest in my opinion of it surely knows by this time what that opinion is - i.e., extremely low.  In the interest of keeping the facts (such as they are) straight, however, I'll offer the following.  I'll try my best to keep my opinions out.

1.  The spelling of the ship's name is Le Soleil Royal.  No E on the end of Royal.  ("Soleil," meaning "sun," is a masculine noun.  Thus the masculine article "le" ["the"] and the masculine adjective "royal" ["royal," or "regal"].  The feminine adjective "Royale" would be appropriate only if the noun modified by it were feminine, in which case the ship's name presumably would be "La Soleile Royale."  That, at least, is what I remember from my freshman-level college French course - taken longer ago than I care to think about.)

2.  From what I've been able to learn so far, there are no 100% reliable primary sources as to the appearance of this ship.  The unfinished model in the Musee de la Marine most emphatically is not a primary source.  It apparently was built - or started - in the nineteenth century.

3.  Earlier in this thread there are references to four - count 'em, four - drawings that bear the name of the ship and give every appearance of dating from the reign of Louis XIV.  The first two (both posted on Sept. 23, 2006; just scroll up the thread to see them) show only the transom.  One is attributed to P. Hippolyte Boussac, the other to Jean Berain the Elder.  [Later edit:  I goofed here.  The Boussac drawing/painting dates from the nineteenth century; it certainly looks like it was based on a seventeenth-century work of some sort - quite possibly the Berain transom drawing.]  They look quite similar at first glance, but disagree with each other in numerous significant details.  The one by Berain, for instance, pretty clearly shows a projecting balcony under the two central windows in the uppermost row.  Berain also clearly indicates - in this view - that there were open quarter galleries on the two lower decks.  (The Boussac drawing shows solid blue panels outboard of the outermost windows on those levels; I think, though, that this may be a mistake on the part of the person who tinted the drawing.  [Later edit:  or maybe by Boussac himself, assuming he was attempting to copy the Berain work.]  In such seventeenth-century publications each copy of the print had to be hand-tinted, and the person doing the tinting probably would not be the one who made the drawing.  [Later edit:  equally true, generally speaking, in the nineteenth century.]) 

Then there are the two side views - bow and stern - also attributed to Berain.  The side view of the stern pretty clearly doesn't match the view of the transom drawn by the same artist, in that the side view doesn't show open quarter galleries and the transom view does.  Why those two views, by the same artist, differ so much I have no idea.

The bottom line about those three graphic sources is that they contradict each other - and so far as I know there's no reason to give any of them more credence than the others.  [Later edit:  the Boussac transom view, dating from almost two centuries later, clearly deserves less credence than the others.  But the two Berain views of the stern contradict each other.]  Maybe they represent different ships; maybe one (or more) of them represent(s) a preliminary design that wasn't executed; maybe they represent the same vessel at different points in her career.  I don't know. 

I suspect some French scholars have dug into the literature and graphic sources about this ship pretty thoroughly over the decades.  Maybe there's a French language monograph or article that sorts all this out; if so, I haven't seen it - but that's hardly remarkable.  There's a great mass of French language material that rarely, if ever, gets distributed in English-speaking countries.

4.  The unfinished Musee de la Marine model doesn't agree with any of those graphic sources.  The overall proportions and number of windows in its transom don't match either the Boussac or the Berain views of the transom, and the model bears scarcely any resemblance to the Berain side views (though the bow is certainly closer than the stern).  The model does have open quarter galleries, but the proportions of its transom are decidedly different from those of both the Berain and Boussac transom views.

What sources the builder of the model consulted I have no idea.  He obviously was a highly-skilled craftsman; I think we can rule out the possibility that he simply miscounted the number of windows.  There are enough similarities between the model and the four contemporary drawings to suggest that there's some connection between them, but why they diverge so much is a mystery.

5.  Some time back a Belgian member of this Forum, Michel VRTG, did some digging about the history of Heller.  He found out, as I recall, that the Heller Soleil Royal kit was in fact based on something called a "bakelite model" that had been built by a gentleman (whose name I've long since forgotten) who had in turn based it on the Musee de la Marine model.  [Later edit:  I found the reference to the bakelite model - though it doesn't provide much enlightenment.  It's at the end of this thread, which also contains some discussion of the deck furniture question:  /forums/560866/ShowPost.aspx .]  Appaently somewhere in the transition the proportions of the hull got distorted (I'm among those who think the proportions of the Heller kit don't match those of the Musee de la Marine model), and somebody misinterpreted the quarter galleries.  The ones in the Heller kit - which look nothing like those in the Berain side view - match the general shapes of those on the Musee de la Marine model pretty well.  Imagine a photo of the MM model's stern taken directly from the side; it would look almost exactly like a photo of the Heller kit taken from the same angle. I suspect the kit designers were working from just such a photo; thus they missed the open quarter galleries.  That, at any rate, is one possible explanation for why they botched them.  The designers clearly were not looking at the Berain side view - and Berain showed open quarter galleries in his other drawing.) 

6.  The gun barrels in the Heller kit don't have the right proportions for the time period.  They're too long and skinny - and the inclusion of the little "dolphins" above the trunnions is at best dubious.

7.  The Musee de la Marine model is unfinished; it has no figurehead or other carvings on its bow, no spars, and virtually no deck furniture.  There's some discussion earlier in this thread of Heller's ridculous attempt to finish off the bow.  There's plenty of room for guesswork about the deck furniture, but I'm strongly inclined to agree with Chuckfan:  the ultra-simple ladders and railings are distinctly out of character with the period, and certainly with the exterior decoration of the ship.

8.  Several of my earlier comments on various inaccuracies in the kit - the screwed up spar proportions, the pointy-ended belaying pins, the lack of yard parrels - do indeed concern mistakes and omissions that can be fixed fairly easily.  My point was that they demonstrate a basic problem with the kit:  the people who designed it simply didn't know what they were doing.  A person who thinks a belaying pin has a sharp point doesn't know what a belaying pin is for.  And (ok, here's a personal opinion; sorry) anybody who doesn't realize that yards are supposed to be fastened to masts has no business designing a ship model. 

The people who worked in Heller sailing ship design section (or whatever they called it) in those days were enormously talented artisans whose understanding of the workings of sailing ships was, at best, extremely sketchy.  (They demonstrated that repeatedly with their efforts to recycle hulls into different ships - sometimes from different centuries - with results that frequently were, in terms of scale modeling, downright hilarious.) 

Shortly after the Soleil Royal was released, the quality and accuracy of Heller sailing ships started to improve markedly; with the Reale, the chebec, H.M.S. Victory, and the two smaller 74-gun ship kits the company obviously was making a genuine effort to appeal to serious scale modelers.  Unfortunately it was just about at that time that Heller got out of the sailing ship business.

I'm not at all sure enough information is extant to enable a reasonably accurate reconstruction of Le Soleil Royal to be built.  I continue to suspect that, somewhere on the continent of Europe, there are a number of ship modelers and naval historians who would find this whole thread silly, because it rehashes a subject they sorted out years ago.  I don't know, for example, whether a set of her hull lines, or any other builder's plans for her, exist.  I do know that the French naval archives were, for many years, notoriously poorly organized, but that the situation has gotten much better in recent decades.  I wonder if, for example, Jean Boudriot, the dean of the history of French naval architecture, has ever taken on the challenge of Le Soleil Royal.  (M. Boudriot has in fact published a book about several famous models in the Musee de la Marine.  I haven't seen the book; I wonder if the Soleil Royal is one of the models in question.)

I'm all in favor of reconstructions of important ships for which the available data is meager; I've often cited the Revell Golden Hind as an excellent example.  But there is also such a thing as an incompetent reconstruction.  In my personal opinion the Heller Soleil Royal falls in that category.  But to each his own.  As I've said repeatedly in this thread, I don't contend that my low opinion of a kit should prevent anybody else from building it.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, August 7, 2008 7:07 AM

John,

I'm sorry to have irritated you.  I meant no disrespect to anybody who has submitted any problem with this kit.  I am simply trying to get a handle on what everyone has said.  Thank you for your points.  I am building this kit right now and am trying to consider the insights offered by everyone and to make the necessary corrections.

You said it yourself . . . one can make a scale ship model out of anything, including a beef bone.  The Heller Soleil Royal offers a better starting point than that.

Again, I apologize.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, August 7, 2008 7:36 AM

Bill, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for, and my last post certainly wasn't intended to imply anything personal whatever. 

I've undoubtedly gotten overly sensitive about this...thing - probably because of my own experience with it.  I spent a considerable amount of money (of which I didn't have much at the time) on it and poured a great deal of time and effort into it, only to get a result that, as was obvious to me by the time the model was done, was completely unsatisfactory.  As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I regard the whole experience as just about the worst one I've ever had in model building.

I suppose it's understandable that, in view of the paucity of decent, large-scale sailing ship kits, this one gets more attention than its counterparts in other phases of plastic modeling.  (Few aircraft, armor, and warship kits of that vintage get taken seriously by "modern" scale modelers.)  Our friend Michel VRTG listed, somewhere on the Forum (I'm not sure how to find it), some large-scale sailing ship projects that Heller had in mind.  They're rather mouth-watering:  H.M.S. Prince, the Sovereign of the Seas, the Mary Rose, the Henri Grace a Dieu, and one or two others that I've forgotten.  If 1/100 kits of those vessels - to the standard of the Heller Victory - had arrived on the shelves of the hobby shops, the whole plastic sailing ship hobby would look different, and serious scale modelers would be able to pass over the Soleil Royal without undue concern.  But the company, for one reason or another, decided to change directions.  The late seventies and early eighties seem to have been, in some ways at least, Heller's "golden age."  From then on, things apparently went downhill. 

Yeah, I guess the...thing...is better than a beef bone.  Especially if it's turned into a waterline model, and all the spars, guns, and rigging fittings are replaced.  And anybody who wants to tackle it certainly has my best wishes.  But for me - never again. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, August 7, 2008 8:06 AM

John,

Your experiences with this kit are precisely those I am experiencing with the Aeropiccola HMS Victory. And, having such 1/100 kits as those mentioned is the stuff of dreams! Oh, well . . . perhaps my campaign to have Airfix begin manufacturing such a line will bear fruit.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, August 9, 2008 8:13 PM

I found a reference book that can help anyone trying to overcome the issues of spar attachments and the misproportions of the various mast and spar components.  The book Historic Ship Models by Wolfram zu Mondfeld is concerned with sailing ship modeling from scratch and from wooden kits.  It includes detailed guidance on making various types of parrals and other spar attachments as well as charts showing the proportions of the respective sections of masts to each other, and their related spars.  These charts are arranged by nationality and by period.  I believe that this book is sold by Model Expo and Amazon.com.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, August 11, 2008 4:59 PM

I have been trying to find any indication of who P. Hippolyte Boussac was (who purportedly painted a view of the transom of Soleil Royal), and while I have innumerable references to his apparently only two existing artworks, the other being L'agreable, the only other reference is to a French Egyptologist from the mid 19th century that occasionally dabbled in watercolors.  The question I have is that if this Boussac and the artist are in fact one and the same, then that particular artwork can be thrown out as any sort of reference for the actual ship and we can all fall back on the Berain paintings as the only reliable guide to both structure and colors (as Berain was absolutely contemporaneous with the ship itself, and was working under the patronage and direction of the 'Sun King' himself).  Can anyone direct me to any sort of biographical reference for P. Hippolyte Boussac that might indicate either his birthdate/death, or date of when the painting may have been painted (and not simply referring to the ship itself)? 

The only other indications of the structure decorations and proportions of the Soleil Royal come from Boudriot, and are referred to in his book Les Vaisseaux 74 a' 120 canons historique 1650-1850 and they are derived almost exclusively from the drawings and paintings of Berain.  In fact, Berain recruited the Neapolitan Phillipe Caffieri (1634-1716) to be the maitre-sculpteur (master carver) for all the decorations for Soleil Royal on behalf of King Louis, which indicates to me that Berain certainly knew what the ship looked like, even before it was built (the decor was to his design)!  Besides the famous paintings of Berain, Boudriot also includes Berain's pen and ink sketches which were used to create the later paintings and these indicate two balconies aft and one open gallery on either quarter.  It almost looks like there are two open galleries from the transom drawing, but closer examination of the side drawing indicating the balconies and carvings shows this to be impossible.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 11:28 AM

I am almost ready to begin posting pictures of my build of this kit painted in the style of Berain.  I have the hull almost complete.  How does one post pictures to this site?

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 1:24 PM

bill,

here is a link that has a tutorial on how to post pictures. it was found in the help forum. i'm looking forward to the pictures :)

/forums/654172/ShowPost.aspx

 

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