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Heller Soleil Royal…..the ultimate building guide.

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  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Klaipeda, Lithuania, Europe
Posted by Wojszwillo on Thursday, December 9, 2010 3:17 PM

Bill, Heller made kit hull shape according this unfinished model.

All, what was wrong in hull shape at this model, is wrong and in Heller's Soleil Royal kit hull...

  • Member since
    December 2010
Posted by uncle vic on Thursday, December 9, 2010 3:39 PM

http://www.modelships.de/Museums_and_replicas/Musee_de_la_Marine_Paris/Photos_Soleil_Royal.htm

a few more shots of the museum ship...........i find this shape quite acceptable, aside from adding a bit more on the bottom.....i'm sorry, but the heller hull always makes me think of a banana....and is not the same as the hull in the museum...i think heller used  paper calipers and tape measures to measure.... .....i wish i could get the lines of the ship from the museum....wonder if anyone has tried....................vic

  • Member since
    December 2010
Posted by uncle vic on Thursday, December 9, 2010 3:51 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soleil_Royal-Gaston_Braun.jpg

another view..................

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, December 10, 2010 12:12 AM

I really - really - don't want to get embroiled in another argument about this kit.  I've said what I have to say about it (I'm one of its non-admirers), and, since I haven't actually had my hands on an example of it for at least thirty years, I'm not in a position to make any detailed comments on it beyond those I've already made.  I do think, though, that it's worth clarifying - to the extent that it's possible - the relationships between (a) the real ship, (b) the unfinished model in the Musee de la Marine, and (c) the Heller kit.

I think it's been firmly established that the Musee de la Marine model was built in the nineteenth century; it isn't contemporary with the real ship.  It disagrees in quite a few significant respects with the contemporary (or near-contemporary) drawings and paintings of the ship's bow and stern that we discussed earlier in this thread.  (Most conspicuously, the model has fewer transom windows in each row than any of the drawings.)  There is, in other words, good reason to wonder just how accurate the Musee de la Marine model is.

Quite some time ago our good Forum friend michelvrtg, from Belgium, established (via an acquaintance of his who was working on a book about the history of Heller) that the Heller designers had in fact worked from something called a "bakelite model" built by a modern modeler, apparently on the basis of the Musee de la Marine model.  Just what that "bakelite model" was (or why anybody would make a ship model out of bakelite) I don't know - nor do I know how closely it actually resembled the Musee de la Marine model.

I can't comment intelligently about the proportions of the Heller kit relative to the Musee de la Marine model, because I don't have the Heller kit in front of me.  I do remember that when I built mine (that was a long time ago) I came to the conclusion that the underwater hull was seriously distorted; that the model overall looked ludicrously topheavy.  I'm not in a position to comment beyond that.

One point about the hull form that I do remember quite clearly:   the Heller kit (assuming one accepts the location of the molded waterline) has a considerable amount of drag in its keel.  That is, if the molded waterline is horizontal, the keel at the bow is slightly but noticeably higher off the baseboard (on which the model is sitting) than it is at the stern.  I found that out the hard way when I carefully turned a pair of identical brass pedestals for my model and discovered that, when the hull was mounted on them, the bow drooped.  It's a little hard to tell from the photo Bill posted, but it sure looks to my eye as though the keel of the MM model is parallel to the waterline.

The big, obvious discrepancy between the kit and the MM model is, as Bill noted, in the quarter galleries.  (Frankly, that mistake alone would have been enough to keep me from buying the kit, if I'd known about it.)  It's interesting to speculate about how that goof happened - and when in the process it happened.  Somebody, at some time, apparently designed the quarter galleries on the basis of a photograph of the MM model taken from the side.  Was the culprit one of the Heller designers?  Or the builder of the "bakelite model"?  We'll probably never know.  At any rate, there's little room for argument:  it's a mistake.

Many of the other problems with the Heller kit probably stem from the fact that the MM model was never finished.  That probably explains the ridiculous hole in the knee of the head, behind the figurehead.  And the lack of deck furniture.  And...oh, well, never mind.

One big question about this subject continues to nag my poor old brain.  Every discussion of this kit - and this ship - that I've encountered has been in either an English-language hobby magazine or an English-language web forum.  I'm aware that a vast amount of high-quality research and writing on maritime subjects has appeared in the French language in recent years - in books and journals that rarely make it to the United States.  I'm sure French scholars and ship modelers have studied the Soleil Royal in great detail, and I suspect those people have unearthed a great deal of information about her that American (and British) modelers haven't seen.  I have, for instance, encountered a few slightly cryptic references to contemporary plans of the Soleil Royal.  If such documents exist, they may either vindicate Heller or confirm my contention that the kit is...well, never mind.  In any case, I have a strong suspicion that our Forum discussion of the kit's accuracy has been operating in the absence of some crucial, basic information - and that some French researchers and modelers may be laughing at us for arguing about issues that they resolved a long time ago.

Too long as usual.  But let me repeat two points that I feel obligated to make every time I discuss this subject.  One - I sympathize completely with anybody who, in view of the tiny number of large-scale plastic sailing ship kits, decides this one is worth building despite its flaws.  (It is, after all, the only good-sized plastic seventeenth-century sailing warship kit on the market.)  Two - I don't contend that, because I personally think a particular kit is a piece of...well, never mind, other modelers shouldn't build it.  To each his/her own.  I just think modelers have a right to go into a major project - and a major purchase - with their eyes open.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2010
Posted by uncle vic on Friday, December 10, 2010 1:07 AM

well said jtilley.........in a nutshell..........hmmm... which the heller kit kind of reminds me ofSmile.........just to clarify....my feelings about the heller kit has nothing to do with it's degree of correctness, but only with a hull shape which is credible to me....i never would expect to even fantasize the appearance of the original ship.....but, with a decent hull, i wouldn't mind building this, and, what the heck....and call it the soleil royal if i wish.....cheers

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, December 10, 2010 7:06 AM

Well, no kit is perfect. There is an entire industry devoted to making after market products to correct flawed kits, either in missing detail, incorrect detail, or distorted detail. Heck, I am waiting even now for a resin hull to replace the one for Hasegawa's Nagato and Mutsu due to the CAD lines being molded into the hull!  One only has to peruse the decades of articles in FSM to see how to correct flawed kits; indeed, that is the entire purpose of publishing such magazines.  Modelers have been correcting flaws in kits since the advent of plastic modeling. Heller's Le Soleil Royal is no different.

That said, I would love to see some aftermarket company create a set for Le Soleil Royal that corrects the galleries, adds deck furniture, corrects the yardarms and cannon barrels, but I won't hold my breath.  So, I will be a modeler and correct these features myself, then realize that I have a reasonable model of a model in the Musee de la Marine instead of a model of a known ship called Le Soleil Royal.

John, I am not intending any argument. You once said that a modeler can build a decent model out of a beef bone; this kit is a somewhat better starting point than that.  By using the photos of the model in Paris as a reference because that is what the kit is based upon, coupled with the pictures, diagrams, and comments provided by others in this thread, I believe I can build a generic model of a 17th century French First Rate.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Klaipeda, Lithuania, Europe
Posted by Wojszwillo on Friday, December 10, 2010 10:41 AM

Bill, well said.

Model depends on modeler.

You can make a model like toy from perfect kit, and You can make a perfect model from a poor kit with parts build by Yourself - Bill, You know, what i mean.

I like Le Soleil Royal kit, becouse this kit is worth an extra work for scratch parts...

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, December 10, 2010 11:34 AM

I agree with John . . . any French scholars and/or modelers who have some expertise or insight into this issue would be very welcome indeed!

Marius, thank you for your comments!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, December 10, 2010 1:37 PM

I'm totally in sympathy with the concept of "generic" ship models.  My most recent one is a generic, early-twentieth-century tugboat, which I named after my wife.  And in the not-too-distant future I'm planning to build a generic, early-twentieth-century American fishing schooner, to be named after my father.

I have no argument with any modeler who, knowing what the weaknesses of a kit are, decides to build it anyway.  My complaint, in the case of the kit that started this thread, is with Heller - for promoting said kit as a scale model of a particular, historical vessel, which, by my (and lots of other people's) definitions it simply is not.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Klaipeda, Lithuania, Europe
Posted by Wojszwillo on Friday, December 10, 2010 1:56 PM

jtilley

I have no argument with any modeler who, knowing what the weaknesses of a kit are, decides to build it anyway.  My complaint, in the case of the kit that started this thread, is with Heller - for promoting said kit as a scale model of a particular, historical vessel, which, by my (and lots of other people's) definitions it simply is not.

Poor is the modeler, that can't correct model kit's errors...

Please take look at this link, and please see, how good can be Heller's Le Soleil Royal made (open galery etc etc) by GOOD modeler:

http://www.romaniaksrestoration.com/soleil.html

  • Member since
    December 2010
Posted by uncle vic on Friday, December 10, 2010 3:53 PM

he put a lot of heart and soul into that....some closeups would have been nice

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, December 10, 2010 7:12 PM

I've seen that site before . . . he did a terrific job!  I would have liked to see any comments on the lower hull.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, December 26, 2010 4:53 PM

I found another detail problem concerning the forward bulkhead.  There are two large openings for doors on either side of the bowsprit; the kit does not include doors for them. I am fabricating mine out of plastic card..

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: Jerome, Idaho, U.S.A.
Posted by crackers on Sunday, December 26, 2010 5:43 PM

     Since I have the heller kit of the SOLEIL ROYAL sitting on a shelf top gathering dust waiting for a future "to do" project, I have been an avid follower of this thread and taken notes and down loaded pictures, so as to avoid all the errors associateed with this kit. If the shape of the hull of this model is so offensive to some viewers, why not place the model in a waterline setting floaring in a fake sea ? Then, the glaring error of hull shape can be hidden. My two cents2 cents of comment.

    Montani semper liberi !   Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                  Crackers                   Geeked

 

Anthony V. Santos

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, December 26, 2010 6:26 PM

Since this kit is based upon the model in the Musee de la Marine in Paris, it should resemble that model.  It does so very well.  Look at the photos of the museum model; the hull proportions of the kit seem to match those of the museum model. Therefore, I have no problems with the hull dimensions of the kit. 

I also have no problems with these dimensions from an historic perspective.  Historically, the French Navy of the 17th century largely relied upon Dutch designers for their ships. The Dutch of the period designed ships that were more shallow-drafted than English ships because of the shallow Dutch coastal waters.  Additionally, ship design of the period was less a science than an art.  Builders built by eye and by feel, not be scientific principles, leading to quite a few design flaws.  For example, witness the events surrounding the loss of the Wasa.  It is possible that ships were built whose draft was just sufficiently deep enough to allow a modicum of stability while being top heavy enough to cause difficult handling.

The Musee del la Marine model is of a shallow draft first rate ship of the line; I believe that it was plausible for such a ship to have existed.  Whether or not this model represents one of the real Le Soleil Royals is questionable.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, December 28, 2010 8:04 PM

Our friend Marius sent me an interesting reference by Jean-Claude Lemineurl called Les Vaisseaux du Roi Soleil. The book is written in French and is packed with hundreds of illustrations of French ships of the mid to late 17th and 18th centuries, as well as the many different designs of naval cannon from the period.

Interestingly, the book illustrates all types of ships showing full and shallow hulls below the waterline. It shows the narrow cannon found in the kit as well as more robust designs.  And, it shows many ships with that perplexing hole in the knee of the head found in the Heller kit.  It is an incredible book; I will be in Marius' debt for years to come!

As a result of this gift, I have come to the conclusion that the Heller Le Soleil Royal, though riddled with problems such as the closed quarter galleries and the lack of any way to attach the yards, is more plausible than many suspect.  I hope Marius will send this book to others.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    October 2010
  • From: Arlington, VT
Posted by WallyM3 on Tuesday, December 28, 2010 8:15 PM

Ugh! What a priceless resource. I don't suppose that there are any sources for this publication that a broader public could tap.            Whistling

Congratulations on your good fortune.Toast

  • Member since
    December 2010
Posted by Liamwitch on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 3:46 AM

Hi,

I have both the SR and the Victory, both of which are not built yet. I don't mean to complain, but as a novice ship builder i was thrilled to see the thread of the ultimate SR building guide. However, reading through the last ten pages, I have found very little useful information but a lot of debate about things of which I have no understanding.

Bill Morrison has given me some great information for painting this model and I thank him for it. Professor Tilley has made it abundantly clear he despises the model. But as far as a building guide, I'm not getting much help. I heard all sorts of stuff about open galleries, but I don't know what you mean or how to open them.

I was and am hoping the thread can go back to being a building guide and not a historical discussion. I really want to build a decent representation, but being a novice all this is doing is confusing me. I'm not getting much guidance from this besides paint and to by a book on rigging which I will do when I get to that point.

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm ranting, but this is all very frustrating to me. I don't know how to make my model better.

Thanks for listening.

Bill

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 8:42 AM

Bill,

First, welcome to the discussion! You raise a valid question.  To try to answer it, I have perused the entire thread and have pulled out the following:

See Michael D's reply of 09/19/06 and Chuck Fan's reply of 09/20/06 on page 1.

See Bryan01's reply of 09/23/06 on page 2.

See Chuck Fan's reply of 10/21/06 and Swolf's reply of 09/06/07 on page 5.

See my replies of 08/06 and 08/09/08 on page 6.

See my replies on 01/05 and 01/06/09 on page 7.

See jtilley's reply of 01/24/09, my replies of 01/24/09, and RobertP's reply of 09/19/10 and my reply of last night on page 8.

These responses contain most of our suggestions for improving the model. Of necessity, there is much "technical" and historical discussion.  We are not only trying to improve the model but improve upon its historical accuracy. Since there is controversy surrounding such things as the kit's hull form, cannon barrels, open vs closed galleries, deck furniture, etc, we cannot seek to improve upon the model without sorting out often-times conflicting historical data.

What we mean by "open" or "closed" quarter galleries is that the ornate structure on both sides of the stern (or stern quarter) contain a continued walkway with that of the stern (or back end) or whether those walkways are enclosed by walls.

The two quarter gallery pieces manufactured by Heller show closed quarter galleries.  The model in the Musee de la Marine in Paris on which the Heller kit is based clearly shows open quarter galleries.  To correct this, you have to remove the wall sections of the two kit pieces, which is easy enough to do with a sharp X-acto knife. Be sure to save the removed pieces and sand them down from their back side so that you can cement them to the sides of the hull. This will allow you to keep their detail in the correct place on the side of the hull.  You will then have to fashion  deck pieces for both galleries from sheet plastic.  Unfortunately, I have never been able to post a picture on this site. I hope someone will.

Please see the specific comments that I have referenced for you.  Feel free to ask anything; we would love to help you to build a terrific model!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    December 2010
Posted by uncle vic on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:08 AM

yea...picture posting here too complicated for me

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 12:00 PM

Hi Bill,

Here's a link to my build showing how I went about opening the Galleries, hope it helps.

http://pete-coleman.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=19&start=15

Regards,

Michael D.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 8:51 PM

Michael,

Thanks! I will keep trying to post mine as well.

Bill

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:45 AM

WallyM3,

Marius sent me this link to the publisher.    http://www.ancre.fr/Product.aspx?ID=3744248&L=EN    In case it doesn't work, the publisher's email address is hb@ancre.fr.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, December 30, 2010 11:01 AM

That looks like a superb book - though probably beyond my wallet's reach at the moment.

The table of contents is tantalizing - and it doesn't quite tell us whether the text contains the answer to the great question on the minds of everybody who's been taking part in this thread:  Is there a set of contemporary plans for Le Soleil Royal ?  If so - if, that is, some contemporary source exists that really tells us what that ship looked like - most of our discussion becomes moot.  If not - well, I guess the discussion will continue indefinitely.

If somebody in the Forum actually buys a copy of the book - please do pass on to the rest of us whatever it says about Le Soleil Royal!

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:23 PM

John,

I have emailed the publisher to try to find out about how to order the book.  I will keep you informed.  Woj (Marius) sent me a copy; it is French text but the meanings of the tables and illustrations seem very clear to me.

The book seems to make clear that everyone's points about this kit are in some degree accurate.  In other words, some Dutch-influenced French ships of the line had the distinctive shallow draft of the model while others were more full-bodied. There also seemed to be a clear transition between building "by eye and feel" and a more scientific approach.  Additionally, the illustrations of ordnance are extraordinary!  That of some ships had the long, narrow look attributed to the Heller kit while others had the more robust look.  Finally, some ships did have that hole in the knee of the head whereas others did not.

Simply put, this book is extraordinary!  I will forward samples to you if you are interested.

Bill

  • Member since
    December 2010
Posted by Liamwitch on Thursday, December 30, 2010 11:28 PM

Thank you everyone for all the information.

Bill, thanks for the clarification of the open gallery vs closed gallery issue. Michael, the pics that you gave a link to really helped me figure things out. Yes, a bit of work to accomplish that and I hope my skills are up to the task, but I have to say it really does add something to the look of the model.

I'm wondering if the cannons carried by model expo are good substitutions on the cannons issue. I admit making up all those cannons then cleaning up seams, etc is a lot of work. I've also seen a bit on the blocks invloved in the rigging issues. Would the model expo ones be a good choice as a replacement?

Finally, I was going to build the model in a rather unorthodox method at least for me. I wanted to build all the tedious twiddly bits first then make up assemblies, paint and set them aside like getting all the guns out of the way and bagging them according to size and putting them out of harms way while I work on the rest. What do you think?

Bill

 

  • Member since
    December 2010
Posted by Liamwitch on Thursday, December 30, 2010 11:35 PM

Oh, I forgot one more thing. I intend to show the SR and my Heller HMS Victory as waterline models (whenever I actually get done with them!) I'm not going to do that myself, but have friend who's a professional model builder do it for me so it comes out right! If anyone is interested in a waterline scenario, I could pass over contact information to him.

Bill

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, December 31, 2010 12:39 AM

Bill,

I like the idea of separating the many subassemblies as you describe.  Also, many people have built these kits as waterline models with success.  The problem for me with using any other cannons but those provided in the kit is that you lose the scroll work that were on Le Soleil Royal's cannons.  The kit pieces also accurately reflect the general shape of those that were on the ship (at least according to this book I have introduced, courtesy of Marius. 

I am building mine (my fifth Le Soleil Royal; I sold the first four) as a full hull model for which I have raised the waterline nearly to the lower wale, opened the quarter galleries, and painted in a modified Berain style.  The Berain modifications include several shades of blue to provide some depth and contrast.  For the hull below the waterline, I have painted it in a realistic tallow color, called almond white by Tamiya Colors. It is in their spray can line of colors.  I have also used the kit's cannons, painted brass. One minor issue is building a bulkhead to enclose the fo'c'sle, as was common practice in the 17th century.

Good luck; please keep posting as your work progresses!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, January 1, 2011 10:12 PM

Well, after reviewing the illustrations in the book,  it appears that the waterline should actually touch upon the lower wale midships, which adds significant depth to the kit's hull below the waterline and enhances the proportional appearance of the kit.  This book has been quite a find!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Klaipeda, Lithuania, Europe
Posted by Wojszwillo on Sunday, January 2, 2011 3:12 AM

I am glad that this book answered a series of questions.

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